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Thread: Should par be achievable?

  1. #61
    Ohioans: We're everywhere cbaker2882's Avatar
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    Par should be attainable with decent play. It should still be something that requires some good shots, but if it’s not attainable, what’s the point of it being par?
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    Short answer: of course.
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  3. #63
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    If a course is unplayable, as in, there is no real chance to challenge par, I think the architect and crew maintaining the course have failed at their job.

    As it relates to the latest US Open sample, I bet if the greens were even halfway reasonable, plenty of guys would have been under par. it didn't take too many 'behind-the-ball' video shots to prove that poa has once again captured the spotlight (I see you, broccoli bay).

  4. #64
    Blame me for *Redacted* JDax's Avatar
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    The United States Open has been played 118 times, and since WW2, the winning score has ranged from 268 to 290, with the majority of those winning scores being at or around 280. Setting up a difficult test is nothing new for the USGA. The total par of the courses ranged from 70 to 72.

    There are 3 Opens that comes to mind when talking about outliers:
    2000- Pebble Beach (Tiger laps the field and wins by 15 strokes at -12).
    2011- Congressional (Rory wins with the lowest aggregate score ever at 268/ -16, when the consistent rain rendered the course defenseless. Rory stole this one, he hasn’t faired well in more traditional US Open conditions).
    2017- Erin Hills (The course needed the wind to protect it and the wind never blows, and Kopeka blitzed the joint. 5 players finished the Open at -10 or better, which would have won 114 of the 117 Opens played to that point).

    This -10 Number is important, because up until 2000, no one had ever finished the Open at -10 (not even Nicklaus- to quote Tin Cup). In my opinion, it’s not Par that the USGA attempts to protect, it is this -10 or better score that they don’t want to see.

    Every time that this -10 Number has been breached the next year the course has been made to play extremely penal:

    2001- Southern Hills (Goosen wins a playoff over Brooks at 276/ -4. It was hot and fast, but most thought it was fair)
    2012- Olympic Club (Webb Simpson wins after Furyk chokes it away on the final 2 holes. Winning score of 281 restores order)
    2018- Shinnecock Hills (Kopeka wins again, but this time it’s a tradition set up. Winds Saturday afternoon cause the 13th, 15th, and 18th greens to get away from them. Winning score is 281 and order is restored again)

    What does the USGA need to do to prevent this type of correction and over correction from happening? I have a few ideas:

    Adopt the R&A’s approach and develop a Rota. This will provide better familiarity and help with pin placement selection. Although Shinnecock has hosted the US Open 5 times, the last time before this year was 14 years ago, a lot can change on a course in 14 years.

    If I was in charge this would be my Rota:

    Oakmont (The beast & and the likelihood of getting blitzed is low. My favorite “US Open” course)

    Winged Foot (The hardest course on my list, has the highest average winning score of any course that has hosted multiple Opens)

    Pebble Beach (Hard to believe that this iconic American Oceanside course hosted the Open for the first time in 1972. When people think of an American golf course they think Pebble Beach)

    Shinnecock Hills (Great course and great test. It is a shame that the last two Opens held at Shinnecock have been mired in layout and playability controversy, because it is a great course)

    Olympic Club (Another Gem and the finishing holes cause havoc under the pressure of the US Open)

    Merion (Short & Quirky track that rewards ball striking over power. Hogan won there, enough said)

    Bethpage- Black (“The Black course is for advanced golfers only”... Public course that has held 2 great Opens)

    Torrey Pines- South (Another public course than can produce drama and great visuals on TV)

    Pinehurst- #2 (Another course the average golfer can play, the turtle back greens can make it play very difficult. Need to make the new native area harder when the Open returns)


    That’s 9, and once a decade sprinkle in places like :
    Baltusrol- Could make a case it should be in my permanent rotation

    Congressional

    Southern Hills

    Hazeltine

    Medinah






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  5. #65
    Major Champion wadesworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadan View Post
    (I see you, broccoli bay).
    ROFL..Broccoli Bay. Love it.


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    I say keep it difficult as it was Saturday then we could invite some superstar golfers to the Breaking 80 thread.
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  7. #67
    "Just playin golf pally" rollin's Avatar
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    I think should be reasonably obtainable with 4 well executed shots. A fair chance at par should be obtainable. Imo that means a reasonable fair chance at getting on the green in two strokes (if we play the right tees for our distances). Cant blame golf for one playing tees too long for their own game. That's not golf placing the disadvantage but is the players choice.

    But a fair chance imo doesn't mean scrambling. I feel a fair chance means as long the hole offers you a fair chance at getting on in two and two putting is all one can ask for. if we miss greens in regulation (of which we had a fair chance to make) we then blew that fair chance and made it more difficult. The same applies to pros imo. Of course a fair chance for them is a whole different world than it is for us. They are a whole other world of great than even many the best among us. And so accordingly is the course they should play reflect that greatness. Imo its not meant for them to have a fair chance at birdie. Only a fair chance at par.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDax View Post
    There are 3 Opens that comes to mind when talking about outliers:

    2000- Pebble Beach (Tiger laps the field and wins by 15 strokes at -12).

    2011- Congressional (Rory wins with the lowest aggregate score ever at 268/ -16, when the consistent rain rendered the course defenseless. Rory stole this one, he hasn’t faired well in more traditional US Open conditions).

    2017- Erin Hills (The course needed the wind to protect it and the wind never blows, and Kopeka blitzed the joint. 5 players finished the Open at -10 or better, which would have won 114 of the 117 Opens played to that point).

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    Extraordinary play and weather in 2 of those Opens should’ve set those above and beyond Erin Hills.

    In 2000, Woods put on a virtuoso performance to reach -12. Second place was +3 and 10 players were within 4 shots of that number.

    In 2010, McIlory had 4 rounds in the 60s on a very wet course. Even with the rain, second was 8 shots back at -8 and 9 players were within 4 shots of that number.

    Neither course belied the USGA’s inflated sense of being the guardian against low scores. Neither were unreasonable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OGputtnfool View Post
    Even as an amateur, I'm not sure I've ever played a hole where par was impossible before I teed off. Definitely many where it was highly unlikely, but I don't think ever impossible.
    Right - that's my point. If par is highly unlikely, then you can't really hold it up as the standard of play for that hole. Isn't that the whole point of having "par"? Otherwise it's just an arbitrary number.
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