What's your method(s) of course management??

Dave Alvarado said:

That's true, but making that switch--hitting a bad tee shot and thinking "ok, not par now, bogie" can be tough. Some people want to beat themselves up for flubbing the tee shot if they started with the expectation of par. If instead they start with the expectation of bogie, it means every hole basically has a built-in mulligan. Bad tee shot? No biggie. Missed a putt? No biggie.

From a mental game standpoint, I think it's better for somebody that shoots in the 100s to just add one to par on their scorecard and make that their new par. I did that, and it helped me not feel like I sucked at golf so badly to have an attainable goal. Plus there are built-in rewards--pars feel like birdies, and the rare birdie feels like an eagle.

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This a great idea for the "stress relief" of thinking PAR PAR PAR... a high handicapper victory is not shooting double bogeys in a round... I'll be trying this out.

so-illhacker said:

Learn the average yardage of your clubs, not the pure strikes that go 10-15 yards further and your most regular miss to keep balls in play. Shoot for bogeys on more difficult holes and every shot you execute from the tee to the pin you have a better chance at making a par or even a birdie. If you have 220 left to a pin on a par 5 instead of hitting a long club, hit two short ones to get home or play shorter off the tee, whatever leaves you the best chance to stay on the short grass. You don't always have to pull a driver on par 4/5's. Hitting into greens if you're between clubs, go shorter, it's usually less trouble being short and a more accurate club, unless there is forced carry over water of course.

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I've been guilty of not thinking this way and have started to understand that putting myself in the most successful situation means more than grabbing a club based on yardage to the pin..

D.Witt said:

I've been guilty of not thinking this way and have started to understand that putting myself in the most successful situation means more than grabbing a club based on yardage to the pin..

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It's hard to check your ego, I still have trouble with it sometimes. Sometimes just because you can, doesn't mean you should. At least that's what I try to tell myself...

Probably my biggest weakness on a golf course.

I always have the mentality, "but if catch this perfect, I can hit it on the green"... and I have a bad problem with trying to make every chip and pitch shot instead of playing to the part of the green that leaves myself with the most makeable putt.

I'm just watching Round 3 of the Australian Masters at Huntingdale GC which is located in the Melbourne's sand-belt region. It's an older style course heavily bunkered around the greens and bunkers strategically positioned on either side of most fairways. Not a long course by any means 6300m or 7000yds with very little water hazard. Adam Scott held the lead by 5 shots midway through yesterday's round and tightened up on the back 9 trying to protect his lead into the next day. Nobody from the rest of the field was making any charge seemingly content to pick up a couple of birdies along the way heading into Round 3.

In relation to this thread I'm a little amazed that nobody is backing themselves and taking the course on today. Admittedly it is a course where if you get it wrong it will make you pay, however the greens are large and soft, conditions superb for knocking down some pins and birdie opportunities are there on the par 5's and some par 4's. Again I say I'm a little shocked nobody is confident enough to make a move as traditionally this tournament sees several players burst from the pack on moving day. Currently the lead is a 4 way tie at 7 under and a little pedestrian.

Now I realise that you can't win a tournament in the 3rd round, but given the relatively bunched field a 4 or 5 shot lead today if you can back it up with a half decent round tomorrow surely makes you the frontrunner. Commentary just now suggesting anyone within 5 or 6 shots can win it tomorrow, likely because nobody has put a hand on the trophy today.

Interesting tactics and a little odd if nothing else.

rollin said:

Good post and I would agree. But I think if one is playing correct tees for his capable distances he should (with some possible exceptions) and on most golf courses be able to par most any hole before he plays it so long as his shots are executed decently. With that said, if one is 200 - 250 out on a par4 approach, in general chances are he didn't execute his tee shot well enough. So now its a matter of looking at what he has left, where he's coming from to do it, and what it looks like where he wants go with it. Trying now to hit the green from 220 from the rough all because he wants to make up for that poorer tee shot is where one imo has to now manage before making things worse. The lie, the current spot, whats ahead, the club to use, and how forgiving is the shot? When any one or a combo of those things will cause failure more than success for that player (if he wants to manage for best score more often) then he must imo take his medicine and play for bogey from that point. So I don't think its a matter of playing for bogey from the start of each hole. I think we can and should start each hole like we are attempting par (and that in itself can usually be obtained even if on the conservative side) but then of course adjust based on the outcome of the shots we took as they happen.

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This is one thing I have been guilty of trying. Now depending on the lie, if its a bad one I just try to get it back on the fairway, if its not to bad a lie and there is no real trouble directly in front of me I go half distance with a shorter iron and use it twice. There is a good chance im on the green in 3 with a 2 putt for bogey. If playing stableford thats 2 points for me or par with my handicap.

The monthly comps run here are all stableford format until your single digit, using that format and mindset helps I think. You've flubbed your drive on a par 4 but for a 18 + handicapper you still have 4 shots for par or 2 points. It takes some of the pressure or bad feeling away after a bad tee shot.

Par 5's I tend to just use driver, then again depending how long is left to the hole I halve the distance and use a iron I am comfortable with. I've watched guys pull 3 woods and mishit them into trouble or chunk them and leave themselves in trouble for the 3rd shot. If im anywhere around 250 - 270 I take a 7 iron, I know I can hit it reasonably straight around 150 ish which is short enough to avoid any trouble but straight enough to leave me on the fairway for a 3rd shot with a short iron.

What I have started trying to do now is, for my first few holes I won't use anything longer than a 7 iron (other than off the tee), once I know which swing is showing up that day then I'll use longer irons, hybrid or 3 wood.

This is totally me. Flub a tee shot and then try to hit some miracle fairway wood 240 yards to make up for it. Towards the end of the year I didn't play anything lower then a 5 iron other then my heaven wood when my swing felt good (rarely). So if I had a 250 yard shot, it would become a 170ish 5 iron and then a wedge. My scores got a lot better when I stopped trying to hit shots that are not easy.


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Just play your own game

lightningbolt44 said:

I am pretty darn aggressive always have been and while that hurts me at times when I try and pull it back I can get to conservative and cost myself

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Same here, every time I go for the lay-up shot I end up worse than I would have more often than not. Now trusting your swing on those aggressive shots make a HUGE difference on the outcome. Either you pull them off or you do not. Take your medicine and leave the shot behind you. If you are willing to take the risk you can not be mad at it. Getting down on yourself is more harmful.

Trey3d said:

Same here, every time I go for the lay-up shot I end up worse than I would have more often than not. Now trusting your swing on those aggressive shots make a HUGE difference on the outcome. Either you pull them off or you do not. Take your medicine and leave the shot behind you. If you are willing to take the risk you can not be mad at it. Getting down on yourself is more harmful.

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This is exactly how the end of the tournament panned out. A case of the entire field having been so conservative especially during the 3rd round yesterday that they played right into the hands of the very experienced Peter Senior, a winner on two previous occasions and again today at the age of 56. The pressure of having to put together a significantly better last round proved too much for most, and those that posted an early score and were in the clubhouse realistically knew they were no chance. Senior kept one eye on the rest of the field and played accordingly while the course eventually eroded any gains the others might have made.

This was an eye opener for me.

Today I put this 'approach' into practise with my own game and a few other aspects came to light.

Let me say a good round for me looks to now be somewhere around 18-20 shots with these new irons so a net gain for my game of - 6 / 8 shots over my old GI irons. Happy? Heck yeah...

As a result today I found myself in some new locations to what I'm otherwise used to, not necessarily in worse positions, but needing to play some delicate second shots from short sides for example. I say modestly that today I looked quite the all-round golfer, more than I have before and this was definitely a positive in my eyes. Facing some of these new and tricky shots head on and I seemed to gain in confidence and carry it with me to the next hole. At worst, I was very content with making a genuine attempt and I think I split my wins with the course. I had some luck sure, and I also suffered for landing some chips 6" either too far or short.

For me this was not necessarily about turning in a pretty scorecard. It was a question of whether or not striking a balance of attacking golf/sensible play would invariably cost shots (and if so how many?) over a more conservative approach of playing for safety at all costs. In my case, today I hit +2 on my last round but I must have played a dozen or so shots that I was certainly not used to playing.

The kicker for me is this... today I threw everything I had at the course, I played every kind of shot I know (and didn't know) how to play. I took my medicine when I needed to and threw a little caution to the wind as well. The course seemed to respect me for this is all I can say :clapp:

By the way, is there really any better feeling than hitting an iron?

Trey3d said:

Same here, every time I go for the lay-up shot I end up worse than I would have more often than not. .

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We really have to be honest hear because I doubt that is really the truth.
It would always (with very little exception) be more the rare that the lay-up ends up worse more often than the harder, more aggressive play for the average player. Sure we can also screw up the smarter play. Heck, if the easier , less aggressive play always worked I'd be in the single digits or even a scratch cap. We still have to make all our shots no matter what.

But if we place most people in a second shot scenario and gave them a 3w,or 5 wood vs a 5i (or hyb), 6,7 iron, there is just no way (with minor exception) that the success of the shot would work more often with the longer woods vs the hybrids or irons especially off the deck. I would even say the same for a 3,4 iron or hyb vs say a 6,7,8iron. Even if ones success rate were not high with either scenario, they still would succeed much more often with the less aggressive play.

If one seriously had less success with the less aggressive play (and in your case its every time) then he (or you) wouldn't want to be closer to the green in the first place because he (or you) would have more success hitting greens from further out with longer and harder to hit clubs and aggressive shots. You pull off these successful longer aggressive shots vs shorter ones every time. So why would you want to then be closer to any green in the first place? If I was better with longer, harder to hit, aggressive shots than I was with lay-up shots I would also want to then approach my greens with those very same shots because that would be my strength. Heck I wouldn't even use my driver because that would put me too close to most greens. I would rather come into the green with my 5wood vs my 7iron on every hole. ......................We really have to be careful and honest when we say that our shorter lay-up shots are always worse than our longer aggressive shots. Its truly just not the case.

Sure some mid and especially higher cappers can have very bad ball striking days where we say it doesn't matter. But truth is that's just because (at the time) we simply cannot make decent ball strikes regardless. But when that same player is doing ok and in his average round making enough decent shots, he/she will "always" collectively through time have very many more successful shots while taking less aggressive, shorter ones (e.g. lay-ups) then he ever will vs taking longer and/or more aggressive ones. It wouldn't even be close to the same amounts let alone better with the aggressive ones.

Double said:

This is exactly how the end of the tournament panned out. A case of the entire field having been so conservative especially during the 3rd round yesterday that they played right into the hands of the very experienced Peter Senior, a winner on two previous occasions and again today at the age of 56. The pressure of having to put together a significantly better last round proved too much for most, and those that posted an early score and were in the clubhouse realistically knew they were no chance. Senior kept one eye on the rest of the field and played accordingly while the course eventually eroded any gains the others might have made.

This was an eye opener for me.

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Competition is a different scenario. Decisions are not always the same as casual play. Wanting to manage to lower average scores and more consistent golf is one thing and requires a more secure method of managing imo. Wanting to win a competition is a different thing. Its like putting your money in a less aggressive but more secure retirement fund that makes money over time vs a riskier one that can make high earnings faster but also can lose it fast too.
The different scenarios in a competition can be the driving force for the decisions one must make. Just not the case all other times for normal play.

rollin said:

... The different scenarios in a competition can be the driving force for the decisions one must make. Just not the case all other times for normal play.

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I completely agree, which is why I remain puzzled as to why the eventual winner was not really challenged especially on the last day.

However I suggest you may be taking a slightly narrower view here than I and comparing the relative success rates of hitting longer irons to shorter, or driver against iron. IMO the idea of taking a driver of the tee with the intention of reaching the green in two instead of laying up for a green in 3 is not necessarily always bad. The layout will ultimately determine if this is wise and of course the form and level of skill of the individual.

My view though is this... However the above scenario pans out, i.e, whether the result is a shot gained or a shot lost because of the decision to take the driver from the tee for e.g, this is not the complete story.

If you can retain the same mindset for the entire round it will likely end in swings & roundabouts, perhaps one might say nothing gained and nothing lost if you win a few and lose a few. And IMO this is the crux of it... for even if your score ends up more or less the same at the end of the round you have gained in actual fact.

In my case today, I managed 7 par holes which is something I've never come close to doing. For me it is not about stat's for their own sake, but the experience of playing each of those 7 holes 'as they we're meant to be played' if I can put it like that. Another real benefit in my mind is this approach stretches your game, it is you challenging yourself to put it all together when it counts. And dare I say, it doesn't have to come off like a pro for the benefit to be had.

I don't want to come across as if I am at odds with you. I see a lot of sense in your words and perhaps only the reasoning behind my decisions differ with yours.

cheers

I would say 8 out of 10 lay up attempts end up just as bad or worse than they would be with the driver. Now to be fair at my home course my layups are with a 3h, and there is alot of sand. (no water) the driver is usually safe from landing spots near waste areas, where as my 3h at 215yds puts me next to or in these waste areas alot easier. Now I do play in two skins/stabelford games a week and I have to be aggressive.

Trey3d said:

I would say 8 out of 10 lay up attempts end up just as bad or worse than they would be with the driver. Now to be fair at my home course my layups are with a 3h, and there is alot of sand. (no water) the driver is usually safe from landing spots near waste areas, where as my 3h at 215yds puts me next to or in these waste areas alot easier. Now I do play in two skins/stabelford games a week and I have to be aggressive.

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Yea, competitions just by the nature of them will force decisions upon us differently than our casual "every day" type of golf. Now, if one only plays in competitions and only rarely plays casual golf, then his decisions are going to reflect that because he hasn't much choice. This thread (I thought) was more about managing ones game in general via his normal casual golf. You know, working towards lowering ones cap, making one more consistent, etc...

Lay ups end up just as bad as "going for it" because lack of commitment and staying in the shot.

Thinking there is plenty of room we relax and swing away. Instead we need to pick an exact location/spot to put that layup instead of laying up to 100yd distance.


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Double said:

I completely agree, which is why I remain puzzled as to why the eventual winner was not really challenged especially on the last day.

However I suggest you may be taking a slightly narrower view here than I and comparing the relative success rates of hitting longer irons to shorter, or driver against iron. IMO the idea of taking a driver of the tee with the intention of reaching the green in two instead of laying up for a green in 3 is not necessarily always bad. The layout will ultimately determine if this is wise and of course the form and level of skill of the individual.

My view though is this... However the above scenario pans out, i.e, whether the result is a shot gained or a shot lost because of the decision to take the driver from the tee for e.g, this is not the complete story.

If you can retain the same mindset for the entire round it will likely end in swings & roundabouts, perhaps one might say nothing gained and nothing lost if you win a few and lose a few. And IMO this is the crux of it... for even if your score ends up more or less the same at the end of the round you have gained in actual fact.

In my case today, I managed 7 par holes which is something I've never come close to doing. For me it is not about stat's for their own sake, but the experience of playing each of those 7 holes 'as they we're meant to be played' if I can put it like that. Another real benefit in my mind is this approach stretches your game, it is you challenging yourself to put it all together when it counts. And dare I say, it doesn't have to come off like a pro for the benefit to be had.

I don't want to come across as if I am at odds with you. I see a lot of sense in your words and perhaps only the reasoning behind my decisions differ with yours.

cheers

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No one at odds in a bad way at all. Its all imo great conversation and debate and is how we all imo learn more. That's the beauty imo of a good forum such as this. I think its one of many reasons we are here. Debates and differences in opinions all works towards the greater good for all of us as long as one wishes to gain from it.

Gain a few and lose a few imo is fine so long as its actually even. And its exactly what I been implying all along but is what often becomes the problem. Most are not that skilled to be just as successful with safer shots vs aggressive ones on a consistent basis. Managing is very much imo exactly about whether or not the makes and misses are indeed even. Strengths vs weaknesses. Taking the harder shot and/or which usually is the longer shot and/or the shot from a poor place but still try to gain back what was lost will fail for most people more times than it succeeds. Its just not going to be an even wash of 50/50 for both decisions.

No one makes 100% of all shots anyway but for most mid and higher cappers making even lets say 60% of safer shots vs say only 20% of aggressive ones is a huge difference towards ones score on a regular basis. For every 10 tries he is making 6 of the safer ones and for every 10 tries only 2 of the aggressive ones. So even at only 60% success with the safer play he will still be 4 strokes (40%) better for every 10 times he has to make this decision if he makes it the safer way. In addition, the 6 extra misses of the 10 attempts with the aggressive play is not just 6 strokes but a also percentage of those misses puts one back into similar or even worse scenarios than they just tried to attempt to start with. Now they have to make the similar decisions again and guess what? Doing it again to only fail more often then they succeed and it compounds the problem and continues and the strokes just add up more and more. That imo (and for me) is not the way to manage to better scoring more often. Its a way to add significant strokes to ones score on a regular basis. What it certainly is not imo, is managing towards consistency and better average scoring.

For the many mid and especially higher capper there can be at least 10 decisions in one round where one must decide between safer or more aggressive. Its not always about a par5, nor always about long shots either, but also about par4's after perhaps a poor tee shot, or (even after a good tee shot) perhaps an approach shot goes a bit errant, or it could simply be a matter of being in the heavier rough vs the fairway or about the angle of the next shot or trees in the way, whatever the case, etc, etc ,etc. We can easily be faced with many decisions to make between safer and more aggressive plays from many different scenarios during our average rounds. And if for every 10 decisions I have to make, if I am to be a significant percecnatge better when playing things safer, than that imo works greatly towards a lower score more often and a lower handicap more often and more consistent golf more often.

I have always maintained that one still has to make his shots no matter what and also must maintain a happy medium between playing safe yet still move forward at a good clip with each shot. After all we do still have to play golf.
Not all more aggressive plays are wrong at all imo. If one is on a tee (and its the correct tees) and he normally always "flies" his decent drives more than 220 yards and water crosses the fairway at 200-210 yards then imo he is not taking the aggressive unsafe route by using his driver. But if the water is crossing at 225 to 235 than he is imo taking the wrong route. That route is something that he will fail at and cost him strokes more often than not. Playing a short dogleg and trying to cut a risky corner is aggressive and fails more often than not and is imo a bad choice (for sake of managing) vs laying up nicely at the corner while still having a nice approach. But a long dogleg? with a more forgiving shot to cut the corner? imo is now the shot we need to take. Hitting my 3w off the deck to try to reach that is narrow and well protected and hazrds and/or woods etc are a problem is not good managing for me. But a nice wide hole with room for error and not too much that is penalizing is then the shot I need to take imo. And most of this depends on what shots one has in his bag that he can make more often. I think that's what managing is for our daily casual golf.

I guess I was also only thinking of tee shots for some reason. Great discussion, I am pretty sure I am not committing on those shots. I will take this with me on my Wed. game. I know I am making more birdies on par5s just because of putting my second shot at the 100yard marker rather then hitting a 3 wood trying to reach in two with bunkers in front and sides.

Later after work today I am going to reread the thread and post back.

I'm not sure that I have what could be called a method. I'm fairly good a managing my round, but with my game every shot can be a new adventure, requiring different considerations. I can stand on the tee and figure how I want to play the hole, but once the drive is off the peg, all bets are off. I take each shot as it comes, balancing any potential risk with the reward if the shot works. I tend most often to avoid taking the risk, or at least minimizing it as much as I possibly can, by playing short or bailing to the safest side. I am willing to surrender to bogey when the danger of going for the par is more more often going to result in double or triple that it is in par. Being on the green in 3 on a par 4 still gives me a putt for par. Being in serious trouble in 1 or 2 rarely gives me a reasonable chance for bogey.

For layups, I use my GPS a lot, so that I know exactly how far the trouble is and what club I can play to guarantee that I won't reach it. My Garmin G6 also lets me get an accurate measurement from the layup point to the center of the green before I play the layup. I became much better at layup shots once I realized that I didn't have to lay up within 10 feet of that hazard. I could stay 20 yards back and still have a good approach shot. This allows me to make a confident swing at the layup shot, because I know that the club I'm using can't reach the trouble, and I know that the next shot is already planned if I make a good swing this time.

Trouble comes in many forms, and that can be different for different players. For some it can be as simple as an uphill or downhill lie. For others it's having the ball above or below the level of your feet. If those lies can be avoided or minimized by playing something other than driver, it should be considered. Even sparse trees or bushes should be weighed if they are concentrated in your typical landing area. Thick groves of trees or bushes, deep native rough, water hazards and deep fairway bunkers are what I call serious risks and all possible attempts should be made to avoid even going near such areas.

Then if you are anything like me, you will get into some of those problems no matter how well you manage your play, because at some point your swing is bound to betray you. In that case I do what I can to minimize the damage as much as possible. I'll look hard at the hero shot, then punch out sideways to the fairway. :golf2:

Fourputt said:

I'm not sure that I have what could be called a method. ............

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I think what you speak of is indeed a method. I also think its one that makes pretty good sense. Some people tend to say that being too conservative is not good. But not taking bigger risks is not the same as being too conservative imo.
You make a good point in your post - "at some point your swing will betray you" and that is the biggest reason imo why one may be a 12 vs a 16 vs a 20 vs a 24 capper. Its not because one doesn't play aggressively, its because his/her swing cant be repeated enough. I can play the safer play vs the aggressive play all day long on every hole and bottom line is that if I make all my shots I would be on every single green (with some exception) in regulation or be very close by and would be close to a scratch player or at least a single digit capper at worst. Unless one really has a distance deficit issue and/or is playing the wrong tees for his distance he doesn't have to play the aggressive and/or riskier game to be a real good player. But our swings fail us and that is the only reason we all are in our current places. Its all based on how often ones swing fails him and how badly. Nothing more than that.

Fourputt said:

... Then if you are anything like me, you will get into some of those problems no matter how well you manage your play, because at some point your swing is bound to betray you. In that case I do what I can to minimize the damage as much as possible. I'll look hard at the hero shot, then punch out sideways to the fairway. :golf2:

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Question:

I'd like to ask how you'd personally feel in terms of confidence let's say after fluffing a deliberate shot short of a front bunkered green for safety, and how this might then compare to say going for the green and overshooting and finding yourself over the back in the rough...

I'm not against safe play, far from it. I simply see merit in a sprinkling of attacking/positive play over the course of a round and as a part of the overall management question posed. YMMV of course.

Double said:

Question:

I'd like to ask how you'd personally feel in terms of confidence let's say after fluffing a deliberate shot short of a front bunkered green for safety, and how this might then compare to say going for the green and overshooting and finding yourself over the back in the rough...

I'm not against safe play, far from it. I simply see merit in a sprinkling of attacking/positive play over the course of a round and as a part of the overall management question posed. YMMV of course.

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I'll answer that by saying that first, I don't fear greenside bunkers. I don't aim at them of course, but I don't change my strategy because I might end up in one if my shot doesn't go as planned. My only reference above to bunkers was to abnormally deep or high lipped fairway bunkers which would result in at least one added stroke if you were to be in one. Normal, sensible fairway bunkers don't bother me either.

Like I said above, I take the safe route when the risk outweighs the reward. At my age, I no longer have the length to really be aggressive like I used to, but I still take chances.

The 18th at my former home course is a good example. 420 yards with a sharp dogleg left. I used to cut the corner over the 2 fairway bunkers that lurk there, usually successfully. Now that my drives average about 30 yards less than they once did, I can no longer cut off as much, so although I still aim straight at the 2 bunkers that wait to snare a ball hit that direction, now I aim at the right bunker instead of the left one. If I hit the drive perfectly I can still get past the bunker to the fairway and leave about 160 yards to a green with water in play on 3 sides. If I hit my drive short, I'm in the bunker with 170-180 yards left, and the lie dictates my next shot - 7W to the green or PW short of the ditch in front of the green. If I push the tee shot a bit right, then I can be in the fairway but anywhere from 190 to 210 yards out. Then my decision depends on how I've been hitting my 7W and 5W that day and what the wind is like. I may still try the aggressive shot, but more often I'll just lay up short and leave 100 yards to the green. (green arrow is line of flight from tee, the other lines are to the green from the three most likely results from tee)



All of those choices and decisions are how analyze my approach shot on this hole. This is typical of my management decisions.

If I know this course I would be aiming at the bunkers, if it goes left probably in the fairway, hit right in rough but a nice open shot, still shorter than planning a 3h to the red line. I would plan a fade right at the bunkers and should be a lot closer.