JayB
Well-known member
To me its less about yardage and more on hole design; is it setup for risk / reward on going for it in 2 vs 3. You can achieve good par 5 hole design sothout being very long.
do you think most average public courses par5's are really long enough to be par 5's?
I used to play some courses from the tips cause some of them weren't much different yardage wise, just a different view/angle which was a good change of pace.
Now since I don't hit them as long as I used to and have been kinda struggling with the irons, let's just say par 3's around 190, par 4's around 425+ can be a challenge to get there in regulations. Now par 5's are a different story since even at 500+ yards, then are still reachable in three shots so they don't seem to bother me as much as long par 3's and 4's do since I still have a chance to par the hole.
It is funny how some people play the tips but can't hit the ball 200 yards and then some wait on a par 5 to hit there second shot.
Now since I don't hit them as long as I used to and have been kinda struggling with the irons, let's just say par 3's around 190, par 4's around 425+ can be a challenge to get there in regulations. Now par 5's are a different story since even at 500+ yards, then are still reachable in three shots so they don't seem to bother me as much as long par 3's and 4's do since I still have a chance to par the hole.
It is funny how some people play the tips but can't hit the ball 200 yards and then some wait on a par 5 to hit there second shot.
ntanygd760
Well-known member
4.7 and 4.8 on the sub 500 par 5s at my home course and 4.8 on the 490-520 depending on the tee.
Really can vary from course to course. The one I belong to now had 6 par 5's; from the tips they range from 509 to 616. The shortest, and another at 567, are probably two of the more challenging holes on the course.
Most of the courses I play here in KS the par 5's are a good mix of distance. My home course has 2 par 5's #2 is 565 from the whites, #6 is 475 dogleg to the left, uphill and green is guarded by bunkers. Both play about 45 yards longer from the tips.
This is my thought too. When you see the average persons skill, and true average driving distances, they are just fine. Sure, good players who are long hitters can take advantage, but that is in reality a very small percentage of people who play. People struggle on average to par ~300y par 4’s, I don’t think a 460 par 5 isn’t worthy of it for most.
rallo
#FYF
I like the "shorter" par 5s that give me a risk/reward opportunity with a long iron or FW... in all honesty I probably score worse for these on average as the longer par 5s take this decision out of my hands (might play driver 6i to a distance). I like being able to "go for glory"
luvagoodshot
New member
They can seem shorter at times, depending on course conditions. Early in the season when the FW's are wet and soft, the par 5's are plenty long enough. But later in the year when the FW's are dry, some of the par 5's seem shorter because of all the extra roll out we get.
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Some of this is going to be based on individual experience. I play a lot of different courses with a lot of different players. I've never played a course that had a 460-yard par 5 from the tips. In my experience I rarely see other players reach par 5s in two. Rarely as in months go by between. Combined with what sources like GHIN and Arcos report as average driving distances for even low handicap amateurs and no, I don't think par 5s are too short.
GenErr
Well-known member
I haven't reached a par 5 in two shots in years, nor has anyone I've played with. That doesn't mean its too long, since regulation is getting on in 3. Most of the par 5's I do play are a drive, approach and a short or mid iron, which I think is fair. If they're too short, move back to a longer teeing position.
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The course I played today (Gordon Lakes, Fort Gordon, GA) has par 5's that are about 500 from the "middle" tees that play to about 6400 yards total. The shortest par 5 is 480, but you need to carry about 240 off the tee to clear a hazard, so laying up is the right answer unless you're really confident. Given that there are two tee boxes longer than I played today, I think we're OK. For the record, the course was designed by RTJ Sr. in 1975. Maybe shorter par 5's is more of a modern thing?
Caveat being that I'm not saying anything about them being too short but longer would offer some interest.
Last 5 rounds on our #10 (526 tips, 498 blues), two rounds from the tips, three from the blues, I've gone: eagle, birdie, par, eagle, birdie.
I'm not that good but once I learned how to play the hole, it takes a lot of the teeth out of it.
If you're averaging par, seems that they are perfect.Caveat being that I'm not saying anything about them being too short but longer would offer some interest.
Can you move back?
Perfect being relative. If I only played 5000 yard courses, I'd likely average par, a measurement of perfect. But where's the fun in that?
Right, but what are you playing now? Can you move back a tee box?
Not at the 5 public courses I play most frequently. I do enjoy the few holes in my rota that sometimes offer a high risk chance every once and awhile. But I like that it's not every round and enjoy even more the par 5s that require 3 very well played shots. There are several more true 3 shot par 5s than there are those offering the odd chance to take the risk. I can think of five holes I've never yet been inside 100 yards for my 3rd, despite killing my 1st two shots, and I never play tips.
I do, I play most of my solo rounds from the back except when I play with a group from the blues.
Again, I'm not complaining about length as I said they "play shorter," I like the scores I've been shooting, especially lately. Although I'm kinda' long, I'm not incredibly long so I can see how the holes play shorter for longer players.
Case in point is #10. 526 from the tips but if I nuke one left of center, it'll catch a mogul where the fairway drops off and my ball will come to rest around the 150 yard marker to the uphill green. That's a crazy long, topography induced drive. The norm is usually anywhere from about a 210-250 yard approach, level dependant, if I don't catch the prime spot.
2 of my of last 3 rounds from the tips, that's where I was, near the 150 stake. Driver, 9-iron is just not my idea of a proper par-5.
Similar but less dramatic on our #17, also 526 yards. This one requires another shot left of center, preferably with a draw to catch what I call the speed slot. Do that and its maybe a 7-iron into the downhill green. Going for it is perilous though, regardless of yardage. Certain death left, likely death right.
Our 527 yard #4 and 536 #8 offer much more challenge. #4 is usually into a prevailing breeze/wind. If I hammer driver, I'm still left with 17° hybrid (my longes club after driver) for even the hope to reach. That's not an easy task, I dig it.
#8 calls for less than driver off the tee due to the possibility of hitting it through the fairway, down a hill into water. I like that. Perfect placement off the tee will leave a solid long hybrid in to reach in two. I've gotten lucky a couple times by catching the small sliver of fairway right, down the hill off the cart path near the water leaving about 190 to an elevated green. Super rare, pure luck though.
I say all this while admitting that after soooo many rounds played at my course, I've only recently began to play the par 5's more aggressively. I used to just assume them all as a three shot hole from the tee and only go for it when conditions were perfect.
But after playing them so much, I decided maybe only 10-12 rounds ago to attack each and every one (within reason) every time. It's only then when I determined them to play a bit shorter.
I gave them maybe 80 rounds of respect, now I look to assault them.
No I don't think most are too short from the tips. At my home course they are 510 to 555 yards from the tips. Due to the way they are laid out I don't think I have ever been on any of them 2. That's not because I'm too short either, it's just almost impossible with the layout.
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I think par 5s have always been the most interesting holes in golf because you can hit 2 stinkers but still hit a GIR and have a birdie look.
I think on paper some 450-480 par 5s may seem "short" or "easy" but to make less than par players still need to play the hole very well. A THPer in our group this morning had driver/7i into a par 5 but still made a 5. Executing shots is what golf is about and that's why when I move up a set of tees my scores dont drop automatically.
I think on paper some 450-480 par 5s may seem "short" or "easy" but to make less than par players still need to play the hole very well. A THPer in our group this morning had driver/7i into a par 5 but still made a 5. Executing shots is what golf is about and that's why when I move up a set of tees my scores dont drop automatically.
Grand Stranded
Keep grinding… you never know
OP Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm going to tell you something a friend told me when I complained about a short hole. he said, "you're a 13 handicap... are you seriously complaining the course is too short for you?" That shut me up quick. BTW I see in your sig you're a 15. :confused2:
I agree with this as well. It is actually more fun than short par 4s for me. In the last 7 days I have had 2 2 putt birdies, I am a short hitter. One was on a 455 yard par 5 from the whites (#6 on this layout https://www.playmetro.com/golf/course-layout), with water left off the tee and hazard all along the right side after about 140 yards. It plays 505 from the tips and usually into the prevailing wind off the bay that is usually 20 mph or so. So when it is blowing, it is a 3 shot par 5 for me (2nd driver/5I/PW or some combo like that). The wind was down, so I hit driver, but it is still a tough tee shot with water left and hazard right. I hit a good one then hit a hybrid on the green (which is no easy shot either with hazard right and long). Most of the players that play the blue tees hit a long iron or hybrid off the tee, but longer hitters have a chance to rip driver and possibly carry the water left and play up the #2 fairway.
It is a fun hole where I had a chance at a 3, but have seen many players lose 2 balls on the hole and walk away with 7+. Risk/reward and strategy on a golf hole are fun to me, so I like this.
Other one I had this at was #18 at this course (http://www.appletreeresort.com/hole-flyovers.html). It is 504 from the tips I believe, and I think it was 465 from where we were playing with the last 60 yards up hill. There is 3 options off the tee: Lay up to the right and have it be a true 3 shot par 5. Play to the thin spot in the middle if you are a 220-250 yard driver of the ball and comfortable putting in in a pretty tight window and lastly bomb one straight ahead (280 or so carry would be my guess). I went with option B, hit it 247 yards and had 156 yards in (played it about 170 with the elevation). Guy I was playing with is pretty long and he went for the big carry... he snap hooked it and ended up making a 7. I ended up making a 4 even though he probably outdrove me by 50 yards all day. To me that makes it a fun golf hole where strategy, decision making and execution all come into play on the hole.
On the flip side I played a 460 yard par 5 today that was just straight ahead of you, from the tips it was 480 and was down wind. I hit a crap drive, and still laid up with a 7I and had a GW in. For someone that hits the ball 250 on average, they should be hitting driver and most likely a 5-6I into what is a pretty unprotected green. It is really a par 4.5 as someone else said.
So long way of saying, if it is designed well I am all for these shorter par 5s, if not, then like most golf holes they are just blase.
Is there anything more fun than a reachable par 5 with a carry over water to the green? Despite their usually shorter length they are almost always among the highest scoring averages on the course.
rollin
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Honestly imo I don't think how often the hole is pared or birdied is relevant at all. By that logic we can then say most any hole is too long because most amateurs don't par (nor certainly birdie) most holes most the times anyway. Imo that's not really part of the equation. Not just you but what a number are suggesting similar to you would be like saying anyone whos cap is not low and don't par most holes should be playing the most forward tee. Its really not relevant imo.
That's like being on a 90 yard par 3 or lets say a 260 yrd par 4 and then not making par. Does that mean those holes were not long enough just because we didn't par them? Is any hole that isn't often pared too long or long enough? That logic doesn't work imo because its got little if anything to do with it.
malemotives
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That's not a par 5.... that's an abomination. Glad I don't play that course. A real waste of time. Probably very few eagles.... if any, from any of the tees. And probably few Pars from the whites... where usually 18+ golfers tee off. Why setup a course that doesn't offer a chance? At least the 520 or so length give an opportunity for eagle or birdie. Golf holes should be designed for risk/reward. Have you been watching the number of bogeys and worse on the short Par 4 at The Travelers... and these are the best Pros. I will never understand why weekend golfers, who can't drive the ball 225 yards elect to play the tips... other than ego.
It's about risk/reward.... even with the pros. The short par 4, compared to the 578 yard par 5.
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Grand Stranded
Keep grinding… you never know
Well then if that doesn't make sense, how about this? 90% of golfers probably think the lengths are fine. Not only that, your "too short" premise is not even a consideration to the vast majority of them. They consider each hole on it's own merits, yardage being only one part of the equation. I will, however, stick to my guns with one part of my earlier response. At it's core, golf is a game where they hand you a scorecard and a pencil at the start. You go out, play, and total your score at the end. If you feel that you have mastered the par 5's where you are currently playing, and your scores are too low because of that, I suggest you need to look for a longer course that will challenge you.
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