Is modern instruction killing the game?

Double Eagle

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Here's a touchy subject. I'm watching the Bridgestone Invitational and I hear Justin Rose had to withdraw. That captured my attention so I went on line to find out why. Back spasms made him withdraw. The other item I saw, and I have to admit to a strong bias, is Rose is getting instruction from Shawn Foley. What other famous golfer had severe back problems while under Foley's tutelage? None other than Tiger Woods. Then there is Hunter Mahan and Sean O'Hair, both students or former students of Foley. Do his students play well using his methods? YES! But, for how long?

I am not singling out Foley for this although it appears an inordinate number of his stable have or will develop back problems. Look at what Tiger has gone through with Butch Harmon and Hank Haney. I think every coach that encourages and or teaches the modern swing is responsible for frustration of the average golfer and the physical problems of all golfers, especially the back injuries.

If you wish to point out how hard the modern golfer swings as the cause for back trouble let me refer to a golfer from way back that hit the ball just as far if not farther than today with the clubs of Mr. Palmer's day, Mike Austin. At the age of 65 he hit a 515 yd drive in a sanctioned tournament using a steel shafted wooden headed driver and a balata ball. That drive is not the point. The point is how he swung the club. Imagine being a long hitter for over 40 years like him. Using the old classic swing he had no back problems. The only physical problems he had came after he had a stroke. The golfers of today hit just as far as Austin did and few do not struggle with back problems.

Let's start with how many frustrated golfers there are in the world. Scoring for the non pro golfer is very high. According to "Golf Digest" handicapping consultant Dean Knuth says that "if we're talking about all golfers -- those with handicaps and those without -- the average score would be more than 100." If we look at officially handicapped golfers, you know who you aren't, the average score is 90. But, since most golfers don't have a handicap because they're so bad the average score is most likely over 100. It appears that only 26% of golfers in the world shoot under 90. Why?

Again, let's go back to modern instruction. What are we told? "The game of golf is the most difficult game in the world." I've been told that by a PGA instructor. What makes it difficult? Here's where it gets touchy. I think it's the instruction. I've played most sports and none of them have the overwhelming number of positions and thoughts that are supposed to make it possible to play the game at an enjoyable level. What's an enjoyable level? How about mid 80's with the occasional dip into the 70's. For those who have taken lessons as an adult, imagine applying what you've been told to make a "good" golf swing to any other sport that involves hitting something. Could you play baseball that way? How about tennis? The answer is no. So why do we think golf is any different? I don't think it is. I think from having been instructed in the modern swing and picking up the classic swing from 1950's and 60's golf books, magazines and TV and from YouTube instructors like Ron Sisson, Brian Sparks and Miguel de la Torre today, oh, and let's add Mike Austin too, that the modern swing is responsible for more frustration and injuries than the classic swing

Now that I've laid out a bit of my thoughts on the matter let's have a civilized discussion.
 
distance is king. You can't compete without distance. When there are scrawny guys like JT crushing the ball the way he does, it is only common sense that at some point that will catch up with him. i don't think it is fair to blame the instructors for giving these guys a swing that can produce monster results. I think it is up to the player to know if using your body at that level is a good long-term idea.
 
Old time instructors used to teach grip-posture-alignment. I think those three basic address fundamentals are all the swing technique factors that a player need learn.
 
I don't think it is a case of "classic" vs "modern" swings. There are more than just two types of swings, two sets of mechanics such as Stack & Tilt, Rotary, Single Plane, 2 Plane, etc. The difference I see is in the basic philosophy of the swing regardless of mechanics. Back in the day of balata balls and persimmon woods the focus in teaching was first accuracy, then distance. Today it is swing as hard as you can and get the most distance; we'll work on accuracy later.
 
The golf swing, whether you go off the "classic" or the "modern" teaching is going to put unnatural pressure on your back as you are twisting around your body to hit the ball. There is nothing in the classic swing that takes pressure off the back, just as there is nothing in the modern swing that adds pressure on the back. It's just the golf swing itself (similar to baseball swings - which also cause quite a few back injuries) that is hard on the back.

The only thing modern teaching is doing is making clones in my opinion. There aren't as many unique swings out there anymore as most of them have been going to a teacher since they were little kids. But it has nothing to do with causing back injuries. There were plenty of older players who had back problems (Freddie Couples being one of the most notable "older" talents to have back problems).
 
My take, golfers have bad backs because they don't strength train properly. I hear 'back spasms' and my brain translates that to 'weakness'.
 
distance is king. You can't compete without distance.
Spieth? ZJohnson? Na? Oosthuisen? Walker? Charl? Duff? Cabrea-Bello? BillyHo? Stenson? Kisner? I can't think of any more at the moment but none of these guys are known as bombers and they compete just fine week in and week out.

Of those names Spieth has increased his driver distance, that I know of, and good for him, but I disagree with the notion overall.
 
The golf swing, whether you go off the "classic" or the "modern" teaching is going to put unnatural pressure on your back as you are twisting around your body to hit the ball. There is nothing in the classic swing that takes pressure off the back, just as there is nothing in the modern swing that adds pressure on the back. It's just the golf swing itself (similar to baseball swings - which also cause quite a few back injuries) that is hard on the back.

The only thing modern teaching is doing is making clones in my opinion. There aren't as many unique swings out there anymore as most of them have been going to a teacher since they were little kids. But it has nothing to do with causing back injuries. There were plenty of older players who had back problems (Freddie Couples being one of the most notable "older" talents to have back problems).

The counterpoint to that is if you have watched any Shawn Clement videos on Youtube. It might not be for everybody but it changed my swing and approach to the game. Swinging free and easy using basic physics of what the body is capable of and inherently knows what to do. Has nothing to do with positions, angles, planes, etc.

I think amateurs trying to replicate the "modern swing" absolutely puts the body in positions that are not natural, in turn, causing injuries.
 
I don't think it is swing related,. There are many factors that contribute to back issues. How many times have you walked a round and stepped in a depression and the ankle rolls, the foot slips when you are taking a swing. Then add in outside activities that you do, playing with kids or your pets. Doing some manual labor. Being dehydrated is a huge issue that contributes to back problems.
Everything is connected to your back, everything in one way or another. Have a chiropractor explain it sometime, it is an amazing thing how it ties together.
Can bad swings contribute, yes they can but it is one small part of the bigger picture. IMO
 
Spieth? ZJohnson? Na? Oosthuisen? Walker? Charl? Duff? Cabrea-Bello? BillyHo? Stenson? Kisner? I can't think of any more at the moment but none of these guys are known as bombers and they compete just fine week in and week out.

Of those names Spieth has increased his driver distance, that I know of, and good for him, but I disagree with the notion overall.

Spieth is 298 yards off the tee
ZJ is 290
Oostie is 299
Na 290
Walker is 298
Charl 297
Duf 296
RCB 291
Horschel 295
Stenson is 287 (but he rarely hits driver and usually out drives guys using a 3wood)

Meanwhile, OWGR:
#1 313
#2 302
#3 312
#4 308
#5 308

so...distance seems important.
Kisner 290
 
Spieth is 298 yards off the tee
ZJ is 290
Oostie is 299
Na 290
Walker is 298
Charl 297
Duf 296
RCB 291
Horschel 295
Stenson is 287 (but he rarely hits driver and usually out drives guys using a 3wood)

Meanwhile, OWGR:
#1 313
#2 302
#3 312
#4 308
#5 308

so...distance seems important.
Kisner 290
So...

My retort was to "you can't compete without distance."

I strongly disagree with that notion.
 
So...

My retort was to "you can't compete without distance."

I strongly disagree with that notion.
Well sure, all of the guys on tour are really good. The reality is though, the longer guys seem to be better than the short guys.

Additionally, my other point still stands. Guys on tour have weak backs and therefore get injured easily and that is my opinion based on what I've seen of their training regiments (Joey D is not a very good strength coach IMO).
 
The reality is though, the longer guys seem to be better than the short guys.

Additionally, my other point still stands. Guys on tour have weak backs and therefore get injured easily and that is my opinion based on what I've seen of their training regiments (Joey D is not a very good strength coach IMO).

I don't agree with anything in this quote.

Modern instruction isn't killing the game. The talk of "this or that is killing the game" is starting to wear itself out.
 
I dont think it is the instruction as much as strength and conditioning. It seems to me like they are chasing distance so much they are not working on the parts of their bodies they need to be stronger to support the swing long term as much as needed.
 
Well sure, all of the guys on tour are really good. The reality is though, the longer guys seem to be better than the short guys.
That was my point, despite being shorter off the tee than most others they compete and win, Majors and Non Majors.

The longer guys better than short guys how? Sure DJ and Rory are monster mashers and own 5 Majors combined, along with a plethora of wins. But so do Spieth and Zach Johnson.

I just don't buy the notion that because you're longer off the tee it makes you a better player at all. I don't think Molinari or Reed are mashers and they won a Major this season, Webb winning The Players? Koepka a bomber and deservingly won our Open but was that the reason he won?
 
That was my point, despite being shorter off the tee than most others they compete and win, Majors and Non Majors.

The longer guys better than short guys how? Sure DJ and Rory are monster mashers and own 5 Majors combined, along with a plethora of wins. But so do Spieth and Zach Johnson.

I just don't buy the notion that because you're longer off the tee it makes you a better player at all. I don't think Molinari or Reed are mashers and they won a Major this season, Webb winning The Players? Koepka a bomber and deservingly won our Open but was that the reason he won?

Its an advantage, but is certainly doesn't make them a better player.
 
I dont think it is the instruction as much as strength and conditioning. It seems to me like they are chasing distance so much they are not working on the parts of their bodies they need to be stronger to support the swing long term as much as needed.

And they're doing it the wrong way. I will stand by my beliefs on that.
 
That was my point, despite being shorter off the tee than most others they compete and win, Majors and Non Majors.

The longer guys better than short guys how? Sure DJ and Rory are monster mashers and own 5 Majors combined, along with a plethora of wins. But so do Spieth and Zach Johnson.

I just don't buy the notion that because you're longer off the tee it makes you a better player at all. I don't think Molinari or Reed are mashers and they won a Major this season, Webb winning The Players? Koepka a bomber and deservingly won our Open but was that the reason he won?

My bigger point, the guys you mentioned aren't really that short. They're short compared to the longest hitters (btw the driving distance stat is one of the worst calculated stats on PGAtour.com) but they aren't dribbling the ball out there either.
 
My bigger point, the guys you mentioned aren't really that short. They're short compared to the longest hitters (btw the driving distance stat is one of the worst calculated stats on PGAtour.com) but they aren't dribbling the ball out there either.
Nobody is claiming that they are hitting 250 yard drives.

All I disagreed with is without distance you can't compete and the longer players are better than the shorter players. No way someone would change my mind on either of those statements.
 
Nobody is claiming that they are hitting 250 yard drives.

All I disagreed with is without distance you can't compete and the longer players are better than the shorter players. No way someone would change my mind on either of those statements.

You're right. Better is score to par and short hitters can and are competitive. Being good at golf is not just about hitting it long. My main contention, the guys you listed are not all that short of hitters.
 
You're right. Better is score to par and short hitters can and are competitive. Being good at golf is not just about hitting it long. My main contention, the guys you listed are not all that short of hitters.
To us sure, but when you hear commentators and stats being shown that those group of players aren't that long driving the ball it makes me laugh.

Even on the amateur level I played with a grandpa last week who was driving it 220-225 and had long irons/hybrids into greens. He shot 75 playing the same tees as us, smoked us. So while I agree that on our level hitting it 275 is a much bigger advantage than hitting it 225, his short game and putting was impeccable.

Now on the back strength aspect, I don't really care nor factor that in. These are pro athletes who have the money to pay for great training, massages, and recovery. If they complain about bad backs or injure their backs that's on them.
 
Now on the back strength aspect, I don't really care nor factor that in. These are pro athletes who have the money to pay for great training, massages, and recovery. If they complain about bad backs or injure their backs that's on them.

I don't think they are getting great training. I think they are getting expensive training. Those are not the same thing.
 
I don't think modern instruction is killing the game at all. I think it's more a matter of finding an instructor that meets your needs and has a way to get that instruction across to you in a way you can understand and advance with.

My daughter's instructors is amazing with teaching her. Just enough instruction to get a desired result, but not enough that her head is spinning when she is done with her lesson.

Teaching is an art. Some people are excellent at it, others not so much. And the student is very individual in their needs as well. A good teacher will be sensitive to that and adjust accordingly.
 
I think it has more to do with the amount of shots they take, day after day, year after year. Even a well conditioned athlete can get injured.
 
This discussion needs to be based on whether we are talking about professional golf or golf as a whole.

If it's golf as a whole, modern instruction isn't killing the game because the large majority of golfers never get formal instruction at all, and even for the ones that do get instructions, very few of them are going to get taught the "modern" swing because getting trained to hit the ball more solidly (aka middle of the clubface) is going to result in more distance than making a bunch of swing changes just to get 5 mph more club head speed.

If it's only professional golf that you are speaking of, then maybe you could say that there are more injuries nowadays with the club head speeds being faster overall than they were 10-20 years ago. But the "modern" swing isn't the only way to swing the golf club, and there are plenty of guys that are top players that don't swing that way.
 
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