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Blades Vs Cavity Back

SuperStroke
lightningbolt44 said:
JB how much of the confusion do you think is being caused by the rapid advance in iron tech? I still see many thoughts out there (not just in this thread)that were proven to be invalid or rather something that new technology took care of.

Even in the last couple years we have seen HUGE tech advances in irons.

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That is a really good question and point. For all of the talk that innovation is dead, and all the companies have done is lower lofts, extend shafts, etc its just not accurate. Right now we have seen COR pushed to the limit on irons, which really does not happen often. We are seeing designs that lead to ball speeds staying relatively similar across the face. We are seeing the ability to use plugs as weights to extreme levels and even the use of new metals. Pocket designs, slots, stability bars and so much more has been brought to the table.
 
JB said:
One thing to remember is that the ball can only spin on one axis at a time. So side spin is the same as backspin in that regard. Most hollow body or thin faced irons will have less spin, but offer a deeper center of gravity, which in turn leads to higher ball flights, with less spin which means lofts can be lowered to get launch adequate to produce some strong distances.

Im sure this confused more than anything, but hope that helps.
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Yeah, that helped me out, I just didn't really think about the low CG and lower spin #'s and raising launch angle. It makes perfect sense though. I play with a guy that games FT I-brid irons with graphite shaft and I game J40cb's with Project X rifle flighted shafts and his tower over mine.

As far as side spin goes, I realize it can only spin on one axis, but depending on path and face to path the axis will tilt to the left or right to create a certain shot shape or miss. I assume that because the lower CG, GI and SGI irons lower spin numbers is why they are considered less workable but more forgiving.

Thanks for bearing with me here, just trying to get my facts right.
 
Just got off the course with the MP -5'S in the bag.

My ball striking was never better. Scores were the best all year.

4 iron 192 yards pin high. 8 ft birdie.

I think the MP -5'S are only about half a club shorter than my current gamers XR Pro's.

For full disclosure. I have completed the extension of my MP-5's to the same length of the XR Pro's. I play plus one inch shaft lengths.

Now with similar equipment and similar lofts lies and shaft lengths. The XR Pro's and MP-5's are neck and neck.

For me. The feedback swing to swing was better with the Blades versus the Players Cavity Backs.

JMTC and personal experience.

Also. It's time for me to get the putter in shape. I was three and four putting all day. If my driver and irons hadn't been so sharp it would have been a complete disaster.

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Johan185 said:
Just got off the course with the MP -5'S in the bag.

My ball striking was never better. Scores were the best all year.

4 iron 192 yards pin high. 8 ft birdie.

I think the MP -5'S are only about half a club shorter than my current gamers XR Pro's.

For full disclosure. I have completed the extension of my MP-5's to the same length of the XR Pro's. I play plus one inch shaft lengths.

Now with similar equipment and similar lofts lies and shaft lengths. The XR Pro's and MP-5's are neck and neck.

For me. The feedback swing to swing was better with the Blades versus the Players Cavity Backs.

JMTC and personal experience.

Also. It's time for me to get the putter in shape. I was three and four putting all day. If my driver and irons hadn't been so sharp it would have been a complete disaster.

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Glad you had a good round with them, they are beautiful irons!
 
Something to think about with what the guys on tour are playing, forgiveness=less costly mistakes=more money. You can also go to almost any golf store and buy the CB's they are gaming, it's great advertising.
 
so-illhacker said:
Something to think about with what the guys on tour are playing, forgiveness=less costly mistakes=more money. You can also go to almost any golf store and buy the CB's they are gaming, it's great advertising.
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If they paid enough I'm sure many players would play and score quite well with any clubs the Major OEM'S were currently marketing.

So are we seeing WITB a reflection of the players or the sponsors preferences. Look at what Bubba is doing for the ping s55. Master Champion and long drive leader.

Week in week out its short game and putting that's leading to money and trophies.

Again JMTC

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Johan185 said:
If they paid enough I'm sure many players would play and score quite well with any clubs the Major OEM'S were currently marketing.

So are we seeing WITB a reflection of the players or the sponsors preferences. Look at what Bubba is doing for the ping s55. Master Champion and long drive leader.

Week in week out its short game and putting that's leading to money and trophies.

Again JMTC

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fwiw I almost didn't buy my s55's because I hate Bubba. That's for another thread though.
 
Well then it might be time for me to introduce you to my new best friends. MP-5'S 4 iron through PW.

Unless of course you can't stand Luke Donald either.

I'm just saying

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Scrap Iron said:
fwiw I almost didn't buy my s55's because I hate Bubba. That's for another thread though.
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Have you tested the Mizuno's MP -5's?

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Johan185 said:
Well then it might be time for me to introduce you to my new best friends. MP-5'S 4 iron through PW.

Unless of course you can't stand Luke Donald either.

I'm just saying

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Nope I'm not looking for a straight up blade my s55's are perfect for what I want.
 
ProZoneGolf said:
Consider the Cally shafts pulled, then installed in the MP5's?...could save you some $, and be more familliar
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I ended up keeping the KBS Tour 120 Shafts in the MP-5's. Oh Boy am I glad I did.

The 120 grams shaft weight has smoothed out my transition with out costing me any club head speed.

It has improved my awareness of the head through out the swing.

By getting the clubs better fit for my sort of upright swing, by extending the shafts one inch, I have found the MP-5's a pure joy to hit. Today I was aim, two practice swings and joy, joy, joy.

I was playing the MP-S5 wedges for the past 6 months, so the addition of the MP-5's has been no brainer.

Very smooth transition from wedges to irons without any gapping issues at the top or bottom of my bag.

Throw in a 3 hybrid, a 3 wood, a driver and a putter. BAM. Smooth, sweet, joy.

Maybe I'm just lost, and blinded by the Chrome plated Jewels.

But I'm thinking any one with a 10 handicap or better could put them in their bag and never noticed the change.

In fact if you're a 15+ who's a pure ball striker with a lousy putting game, I doubt these clubs will be holding back.

The feedback is addictive. And my brain quickly figured out how to keep my Morphine dripping. Mizuno MP. .... . Ahhhhhhhhhh!

If I'm dreaming. Please don't bother to wake me up.

My this Honeymoon last forever.

I may never bag another club. My club ho' days are over Johnny. This time is really Love At First Sight.



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Sounds like you extended the shafts?
Several benefits, more weight, more power, softer flex by at least 1 full flex or more depending on how far you extended the MP5's.
KBS Tour Stiffs are 6.0 and a fairly firm profile, sounds like you got them kicking and the playability factor will be a huge change.
In the Video of Rick Shields he is loading perfect the 4i, to me this shows perhaps he needed a DG X100 SS. Generally I think the whole accending scale of flex is too steep with some brands like DG and you have too firm short irons with too soft 3i's...but that's another topic
Blades players do like a tad of shaft / action, generally 1/2 a flex softer, or a lower bend point. Hogans famous shaft was a lower bend point similar to a DG XP. A DG x100 ss1x or S300 HS are good options also.
Blades with a firmer flex become very unforgiving on miss hits, so if you miss a tad soften the flex (soft step them) or get new shafts with softer tips.
For me installing the KBS Tour V 120x SS 1x was still 'a lot' of shaft, they were fine in my S55's with that toe weight. Pure strikes were extremely tight however slight misses were a tad firm. Yes I was still out playing S55's with the same shaft, despite the slightly firmer feel. Since then I went to FCM 6.5's that are doing well. Consider Nippon also for their smooth feel like a 1050-1150's, Modus3's , SPB's stiff HS etc just get a bit more flex and smoother feel going. The blade heads are smaller and load the shaft a bit less than a shovel. I can easily play x100 straight in a cavity like a AP1, J40, MP30 etc those bigger heads.

I know this thread is about blades Vs cavities however a blade does have to have a good shaft fit for the player to be compared. Its taken me a long time to get my shafts 'just right' with fcm I like D2.5-D3, with hevier weights like DG, I like D1.5-D2. So with a lighter shaft err on 1 more SW point.
I will say with a cavity err 1/4 - 1/2 flex firmer tops...nothing worse than a cavity with offset and a slightly soft flex 'for me'...hooky hooky & spraying balls due to my slight draw swing.A nice blade head with the right shaft can be the holy grail in golf...its just takes work to get it set up or a good fit right out of the big box store??...try many diff shafts
 
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Genuine question, how does shaft softness increase forgiveness?
 
blugold said:
Genuine question, how does shaft softness increase forgiveness?
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Has a lot to do with loading the shaft, without over swinging to do it. There are also feel benefits that build confidence. Any shaft with higher torque with soak up a miss hit more and still kick, rather than the telephone pole jerk in your hands. or with a blade iron a sting, particularly in cold conditions
Most players do better with 'slightly' softer iron shafts, def in the short irons, but them some prefer a firmer 4i, 3i. You can rotate the shafts to a softer side short irons, Spine at 6-7 o clock mid, then spine at target long irons to firm them up. This may work just for the cost of glue, plus you get a new side of the grip!
I may adjust a shaft a few times to get it in the right spot...when you find it...its majic...if you have some good irons leave them alone! I think irons are 60% shaft 40% head. or close to that

How can we really compare Blades Vs Cavities if the shafts don't fit well for the player...

NB: if you have a good iron shaft keep it, mark down the shaft with a sharpie to put in the next head. Re-shaft the head nicely oem style before you sell them. Like your going to let that majic shaft go?
 
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ProZoneGolf said:
Has a lot to do with loading the shaft, without over swinging to do it. There are also feel benefits that build confidence. Any shaft with higher torque with soak up a miss hit more and still kick, rather than the telephone pole jerk in your hands. or with a blade iron a sting, particularly in cold conditions
Most players do better with 'slightly' softer iron shafts, def in the short irons, but them some prefer a firmer 4i, 3i
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That's fit, not forgiveness.
 
Also, torque is not that large of a role anymore, at all. I've now talked with 3 of the biggest shaft manufacturers in golf about that very thing, it's all for feel now.

This isn't the 80s and 90s anymore when it comes to shaft manufacturing.
 
ProZoneGolf said:
Has a lot to do with loading the shaft, without over swinging to do it. There are also feel benefits that build confidence. Any shaft with higher torque with soak up a miss hit more and still kick, rather than the telephone pole jerk in your hands. or with a blade iron a sting, particularly in cold conditions
Most players do better with 'slightly' softer iron shafts, def in the short irons, but them some prefer a firmer 4i, 3i
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How can you feel comfortable making a blanket statement about a golf swing and shafts when each swing is different and has so many different variables?
What you notice and prefer is not what everyone will notice and prefer. That is why it is so important for everyone to test multiple combos with different irons

I get what your viewpoint is and value the conversation greatly but let's not make a blanket statement and have someone confuse it as fact.

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ProZoneGolf said:
Has a lot to do with loading the shaft, without over swinging to do it. There are also feel benefits that build confidence. Any shaft with higher torque with soak up a miss hit more and still kick, rather than the telephone pole jerk in your hands. or with a blade iron a sting, particularly in cold conditions
Most players do better with 'slightly' softer iron shafts, def in the short irons, but them some prefer a firmer 4i, 3i. You can rotate the shafts to a softer side short irons, Spine at 6-7 o clock mid, then spine at target long irons to firm them up. This may work just for the cost of glue, plus you get a new side of the grip!
I may adjust a shaft a few times to get it in the right spot...when you find it...its majic...if you have some good irons leave them alone! I think irons are 60% shaft 40% head. or close to that

How can we really compare Blades Vs Cavities if the shafts don't fit well for the player...

NB: if you have a good iron shaft keep it, mark down the shaft with a sharpie to put in the next head. Re-shaft the head nicely oem style before you sell them. Like your going to let that majic shaft go?
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I will go with the notion that a properly fitted shaft will allow a golfer utilize all of the available forgiveness in a clubhead. But you didn't answer how a softer shaft makes a clubhead more forgiving
 
blugold said:
I will go with the notion that a properly fitted shaft will allow a golfer utilize all of the available forgiveness in a clubhead. But you didn't answer how a softer shaft makes a clubhead more forgiving
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Yes it was a blanket statement...perhaps not for everyone, but generally most do better with a softer flex in a blade, with irons its about fit, all steel have fairly low torque compared to graphite, so flex fit is key. But I did say "Most players do better with 'slightly' softer iron shafts" that is NOT all players...I still stand by it
Yes every swing is different and what I have stated is not for everyone. A near good ball striker can go a stiffer with a blade. We are not talking 6.0 to 6.5. Perhaps 6.4 to 6.5 in my case which was small. A soft step in DG will go 6.8 to 6.5. So in most cases a SS or HS will do the trick. Take what I post and I hope it helps a bit. But to be bang on go get fitted, try many shafts head at a outside range. But generally readers will know were they are at, too soft, too firm, too light etc. Lets not dice my posts to the inth tiny point and argue on them...Jheez had enough of that!...I post good info from what I know, its not perfect for all player types, and I don't know it all for everyone
 
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ProZoneGolf said:
Yes it was a blanket statement...perhaps not for everyone, but generally most do better with a softer flex in a blade, with irons its about fit, all steel have fairly low torque compared to graphite, so flex fit is key.
Yes every swing is different and what I have stated is not for everyone. A near good ball striker can go a stiffer with a blade. We are not talking 6.0 to 6.5. Perhaps 6.4 to 6.5 in my case which was small. A soft step in DG will go 6.8 to 6.5. So in most cases a SS or HS will do the trick. Take what I post and I hope it helps a bit. But to be bang on go get fitted, try many shafts head at a outside range. But generally readers will know were they are at, too soft, too firm, too light etc. Lets not dice my posts to the inth tiny point and argue on them...Jheez had enough of that!...I post good info from what I know, its not perfect for all player types, and I don't know it all for everyone
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Nothing wrong with posting info and sharing that with everyone, that is what THP is built on, but blanket statements positioned as being absolutes can mislead and I think you would agree no one wants/intends for that to happen.
 
Jman said:
Also, torque is not that large of a role anymore, at all. I've now talked with 3 of the biggest shaft manufacturers in golf about that very thing, it's all for feel now.

This isn't the 80s and 90s anymore when it comes to shaft manufacturing.
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...according to UST who tested X flex players prefer more torque. lower torque is less forgiveness in a stiffer profile for your flex...some call it rebar...what's your HCP ?
 
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ProZoneGolf said:
...according to UST who tested X flex players prefer more torque. lower torque is less forgiveness in a stiffer profile for your flex...some call it rebar...what's your HCP?
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What does his handicap matter?the dude touches more equipment the just about anybody on the site. Talks, teaches, and review it all.
 
lightningbolt44 said:
Your forgetting an important variable that is the Ball. Even the same type of ball. Ball to ball could be different.

Robot testing is the worst way you can test anything in golf we are not robots and a robot won't ever swing the club for you . However I seem to remember one of the shaft companies (true temper I think) created a robot that can emulate the imperfections of a humans swing that would be a valid test imo but not something that is setup to hit the same spot over and over. On that note the sweet spot would most likely be in a different spot for the mb and cb so do you setup the bot to hit the sweet spot for each and if not how is that a fair test? People assume the exact middle is always the sweet spot unfortunately that is not always the case.

Everyone will have different results so instead of listening to the robot everyone should play what they have the most success with and like looking at.

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For sure the ball will be a variable, so you'd need to hit a lot of balls to average it out. Sweet spot, you'd want to adjust the robot to hit it wherever it is, just like a real golfer would.

It doesn't matter if a robot swings like a person if you're trying to test the properties of the club itself. Sure, robots can't test things like feel. But they can test things that require a perfectly repeatable swing, like ball dispersion. You're basically finding out what's the absolute best a club can do if you pure it every time. A robot is the only way to be scientific about it, and I guarantee the engineers designing clubs care about scientific testing.

If nobody cared about the swing you put on a club, I'm happy to be a club tester for all the major manufacturers. My swing is crap, but that shouldn't matter, right? :alien:
 
What I see time and time again on THP is posters adding good content then a a few adding NOTHING! but trolling or tearing down what others write for the sake of a argument...

These type of players are the kind who wish a bad out come on your shots just to get a stroke...
 
Dave Alvarado said:
For sure the ball will be a variable, so you'd need to hit a lot of balls to average it out. Sweet spot, you'd want to adjust the robot to hit it wherever it is, just like a real golfer would.

It doesn't matter if a robot swings like a person if you're trying to test the properties of the club itself. Sure, robots can't test things like feel. But they can test things that require a perfectly repeatable swing, like ball dispersion. You're basically finding out what's the absolute best a club can do if you pure it every time. A robot is the only way to be scientific about it, and I guarantee the engineers designing clubs care about scientific testing.

If nobody cared about the swing you put on a club, I'm happy to be a club tester for all the major manufacturers. My swing is crap, but that shouldn't matter, right? :alien:
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If a perfect swing results in perfect impact how would dispersion even matter? Every ball would be striped right down the middle, no?

I could see robots being used to create exactly repeatable misses, which allow the OEM's to fine tune designs to validate a club's features or enhance forgiveness.
 
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