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Penalty Question: I’m Confused

Buster1

Buster1

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Okay, here’s the deal. I’m legitimately confused and have been reading the rules regarding penalty strokes for a water hazard.

Here’s what happened today.

Par 5. Drive goes in the fairway.
Second shot with the 3W goes in a lateral water hazard.
I drop a new ball at the 2nd shot location and hit it well, just short of the green.
Next shot goes on the green, and I two putt.

If it wasn’t for the water on shot #2, I’m on in regulation and Par. But the rules say a one stroke penalty, and my Game Golf app allows for adding penalties. So I add a stroke on that second shot and now I end up with a Bogey.

Is this right? Something doesn’t feel right.
Or does my dropped new ball at #2 shot location really lie 3?

Thanks.
 
Buster1 said:
Okay, here’s the deal. I’m legitimately confused and have been reading the rules regarding penalty strokes for a water hazard.

Here’s what happened today.

Par 5. Drive goes in the fairway.
Second shot with the 3W goes in a lateral water hazard.
I drop a new ball at the 2nd shot location and hit it well, just short of the green.
Next shot goes on the green, and I two putt.

If it wasn’t for the water on shot #2, I’m on in regulation and Par. But the rules say a one stroke penalty, and my Game Golf app allows for adding penalties. So I add a stroke on that second shot and now I end up with a Bogey.

Is this right? Something doesn’t feel right.
Or does my dropped new ball at #2 shot location really lie 3?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
No your dropping three and hitting four.
 
Drive
2nd in the water
penalty shot (3rd)
4th by the green
5th chip on
6th & 7th putts

You made a double. I'd guess you forgot to add the 2nd stroke.
 
Yep, two in, three out, hitting four.
 
Okay. That’s what my paper card said...double B. The Game golf app was throwing me off. So technically I need to put a 2 stroke penalty on that 2nd shot in the app, to make the math right. My app doesn’t (didn’t) count my 2nd attempt with that 3W.

Thanks guys!
 
Buster1 said:
Okay. That’s what my paper card said...double B. The Game golf app was throwing me off. So technically I need to put a 2 stroke penalty on that 2nd shot in the app, to make the math right. My app doesn’t (didn’t) count my 2nd attempt with that 3W.

Thanks guys!
Click to expand...

Not two penalty strokes. One penalty stroke. Just add another 3wd shot before the penalty.

Why did you take stroke and distance? Obviously, it's an option, but was the spot where you'd have dropped that bad?
 
Buster1 said:
Okay. That’s what my paper card said...double B. The Game golf app was throwing me off. So technically I need to put a 2 stroke penalty on that 2nd shot in the app, to make the math right. My app doesn’t (didn’t) count my 2nd attempt with that 3W.

Thanks guys!
Click to expand...
I think GG when you add the penalty where the ball went in the water. So you add it on second shot, where you add the the next shot should come up as 4. I hope this makes sense.
 
OGputtnfool said:
Not two penalty strokes. One penalty stroke. Just add another 3wd shot before the penalty.

Why did you take stroke and distance? Obviously, it's an option, but was the spot where you'd have dropped that bad?
Click to expand...

Technically, you’re correct. I should add 1 3W stroke and 1 penalty. I can add a 3W stroke (and penalty) but the drop location makes it think that’s where I hit the second 3W shot from. In my case that was less than a foot away from the original location and GG adds a 1 foot distance into my 3W stats. In reality, I don’t really know how far the shot went before it landed in the water.

Not sure why I took stroke and distance. The water was lateral with lots of rough, so a drop up there might have been worse. My original lie off the drive was really sweet, center of the fairway, fluffy...all that. Maybe I need to reconsider my strategy huh?
 
Buster1 said:
Technically, you’re correct. I should add 1 3W stroke and 1 penalty. I can add a 3W stroke (and penalty) but the drop location makes it think that’s where I hit the second 3W shot from. In my case that was less than a foot away from the original location and GG adds a 1 foot distance into my 3W stats. In reality, I don’t really know how far the shot went before it landed in the water.

Not sure why I took stroke and distance. The water was lateral with lots of rough, so a drop up there might have been worse. My original lie off the drive was really sweet, center of the fairway, fluffy...all that. Maybe I need to reconsider my strategy huh?
Click to expand...

Will GG not allow you to remove a shot from distance calculations? I use GolfPad and I know it will. It actually does it on its own when the distance is way off the "normal".
cd77dc08bae0df4784b093c96501a17c.jpg
 
Always wondered about this one:

Drive in the fairway, second behind the green and above the hole in a fluffy lie.

Third shot, my attempted flop shot goes straight up. I was in high school at the time and a bit... insane... so I swung at the ball as it came down and missed.

Fourth shot, my second attempted flop goes straight up. I again swing at the ball as it comes down and this time make contact. The ball hits a nearby tree and bounces back and hits me in a place I'd rather it didn't. When hopping around in white pain and rage I semi-accidentally kick the ball into a bunker no nearer the hole. When entering the bunker I slip and land on the ball, losing my grip on my club that also ends up in the bunker.

Where do I play from and what do I lie?

We decided I had to play it as it lies and laying 13. I then of course spite stiffed the shot out of the plugged lie for the tap-in 15.

Was that right?
 
Elbow Jobertski said:
Always wondered about this one:

Drive in the fairway, second behind the green and above the hole in a fluffy lie.

Third shot, my attempted flop shot goes straight up. I was in high school at the time and a bit... insane... so I swung at the ball as it came down and missed.

Fourth shot, my second attempted flop goes straight up. I again swing at the ball as it comes down and this time make contact. The ball hits a nearby tree and bounces back and hits me in a place I'd rather it didn't. When hopping around in white pain and rage I semi-accidentally kick the ball into a bunker no nearer the hole. When entering the bunker I slip and land on the ball, losing my grip on my club that also ends up in the bunker.

Where do I play from and what do I lie?

We decided I had to play it as it lies and laying 13. I then of course spite stiffed the shot out of the plugged lie for the tap-in 15.

Was that right?
Click to expand...

I have no idea, but this is a truly epic saga. I have not been this amused reading a reply in a long time.

Whiskey
 
Elbow Jobertski said:
Always wondered about this one:

Drive in the fairway, second behind the green and above the hole in a fluffy lie.

Third shot, my attempted flop shot goes straight up. I was in high school at the time and a bit... insane... so I swung at the ball as it came down and missed.

Fourth shot, my second attempted flop goes straight up. I again swing at the ball as it comes down and this time make contact. The ball hits a nearby tree and bounces back and hits me in a place I'd rather it didn't. When hopping around in white pain and rage I semi-accidentally kick the ball into a bunker no nearer the hole. When entering the bunker I slip and land on the ball, losing my grip on my club that also ends up in the bunker.

Where do I play from and what do I lie?

We decided I had to play it as it lies and laying 13. I then of course spite stiffed the shot out of the plugged lie for the tap-in 15.

Was that right?
Click to expand...

By my count, you made a 14.


1 Drive
1 2nd
1 Flop
1 stroke at airborne ball
2 stroke penalty for stroke at moving ball
1 Flop
1 stroke at airborne ball
2 stroke penalty for stroke at moving ball (supersedes penalty for hitting yourself)
1 stroke at ball in bunker
2 for playing from a wrong place (supersedes penalty for moving ball at rest)
1 putt

So some questions which will come up:

What is this supersedes stuff?

Generally, when two penalties can be applied to the same situation, the larger penalty is applied. For example, if you lift your ball improperly and then improve your lie by pressing down the grass in front of the ball, you'll be penalized 2-strokes for improving your lie and the penalty for improperly lifting your ball will not be applied.

What about a penalty for touching the sand or testing the condition when he fell into the bunker?

Generally, a legitimate fall is not going to be counted against the player.

Did he have to play the ball as it lay from the bunker?

No. In fact, since he moved his ball at rest, he was required to replace it. He should have restored the lie as closely as possible (including raking if necessary) and replaced the ball. If he didn't, he would be playing from a wrong place. However, he was already playing from a wrong place because when he accidentally kicked his ball in the bunker, he should have replaced it on the green before making his next stroke.

Would his playing from a wrong place be considered a serious breach and thus subject to a DQ?

Probably not. Since he played from a more difficult position, it would be unlikely to be ruled a serious breach.

This is an interesting situation though, so I'm going to post it on a rules forum and get the opinion of other rules officials.
 
Buster1 said:
Technically, you’re correct. I should add 1 3W stroke and 1 penalty. I can add a 3W stroke (and penalty) but the drop location makes it think that’s where I hit the second 3W shot from. In my case that was less than a foot away from the original location and GG adds a 1 foot distance into my 3W stats. In reality, I don’t really know how far the shot went before it landed in the water.

Not sure why I took stroke and distance. The water was lateral with lots of rough, so a drop up there might have been worse. My original lie off the drive was really sweet, center of the fairway, fluffy...all that. Maybe I need to reconsider my strategy huh?
Click to expand...

I have a 1 iron(not real just one I can tag) that I use for issues like yours where I take a penalty but do't want the stats looking like I hit my 3 wood 4 yards. It also is a quick way to see how many awful shots I hit, the more 1 iron tags the worse the round went.
 
Elbow Jobertski said:
Always wondered about this one:

Drive in the fairway, second behind the green and above the hole in a fluffy lie.

Third shot, my attempted flop shot goes straight up. I was in high school at the time and a bit... insane... so I swung at the ball as it came down and missed.

Fourth shot, my second attempted flop goes straight up. I again swing at the ball as it comes down and this time make contact. The ball hits a nearby tree and bounces back and hits me in a place I'd rather it didn't. When hopping around in white pain and rage I semi-accidentally kick the ball into a bunker no nearer the hole. When entering the bunker I slip and land on the ball, losing my grip on my club that also ends up in the bunker.

Where do I play from and what do I lie?

We decided I had to play it as it lies and laying 13. I then of course spite stiffed the shot out of the plugged lie for the tap-in 15.

Was that right?
Click to expand...

Personally I would just go with walking straight to the parking lot at that point.
 
Elbow Jobertski said:
Always wondered about this one:

Drive in the fairway, second behind the green and above the hole in a fluffy lie.

Third shot, my attempted flop shot goes straight up. I was in high school at the time and a bit... insane... so I swung at the ball as it came down and missed.

Fourth shot, my second attempted flop goes straight up. I again swing at the ball as it comes down and this time make contact. The ball hits a nearby tree and bounces back and hits me in a place I'd rather it didn't. When hopping around in white pain and rage I semi-accidentally kick the ball into a bunker no nearer the hole. When entering the bunker I slip and land on the ball, losing my grip on my club that also ends up in the bunker.

Where do I play from and what do I lie?

We decided I had to play it as it lies and laying 13. I then of course spite stiffed the shot out of the plugged lie for the tap-in 15.

Was that right?
Click to expand...

To coin and paraphrase a saying one of our nations presidential candidates said, "at this point, what did it really matter?"
 
rocullen said:
To coin and paraphrase a saying one of our nations presidential candidates said, "at this point, what did it really matter?"
Click to expand...

Nothing ever matters, really. We are soulless bags of meat doomed to toil in misery, struggling towards an ultimate goal of oblivion. All of what we find worthwhile are trivial distractions from that.

Back then it was in a High School tournament so some level of vague accuracy was important. Exact accuracy wasn't because it was the kind of area where wearing jeans to play golf was borderline overdressing. Now, I'm just curious and happy to learn that "supersedes" stuff. I've gone through some weird stuff in stroke play and that concept answers a whole lot of questions that are only really worth asking for entertainment purposes.
 
Elbow Jobertski said:
Nothing ever matters, really. We are soulless bags of meat doomed to toil in misery, struggling towards an ultimate goal of oblivion. All of what we find worthwhile are trivial distractions from that.

Back then it was in a High School tournament so some level of vague accuracy was important. Exact accuracy wasn't because it was the kind of area where wearing jeans to play golf was borderline overdressing. Now, I'm just curious and happy to learn that "supersedes" stuff. I've gone through some weird stuff in stroke play and that concept answers a whole lot of questions that are only really worth asking for entertainment purposes.
Click to expand...

You were in a HS tournament and you were swinging at a airborn ball? a moving ball? Should of just DQed. Flagrant disregard for rules.
 
rocullen said:
You were in a HS tournament and you were swinging at a airborn ball? a moving ball? Should of just DQed. Flagrant disregard for rules.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but it wasn't that kind of scene. I think if someone had tried to get someone else DQed over a stupid temper episode like that he'd have wound up being pantsed and left in a bunker. Using proper procedure to take a drop was enough to get one marked as an obnoxious rules lawyer, much less that.
 
Elbow Jobertski said:
Always wondered about this one:

Drive in the fairway, second behind the green and above the hole in a fluffy lie.

Third shot, my attempted flop shot goes straight up. I was in high school at the time and a bit... insane... so I swung at the ball as it came down and missed.

Fourth shot, my second attempted flop goes straight up. I again swing at the ball as it comes down and this time make contact. The ball hits a nearby tree and bounces back and hits me in a place I'd rather it didn't. When hopping around in white pain and rage I semi-accidentally kick the ball into a bunker no nearer the hole. When entering the bunker I slip and land on the ball, losing my grip on my club that also ends up in the bunker.

Where do I play from and what do I lie?

We decided I had to play it as it lies and laying 13. I then of course spite stiffed the shot out of the plugged lie for the tap-in 15.

Was that right?
Click to expand...

This is one of my favorite forum posts of all time! Thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I played a lot of my golf growing up with and around morons, so there are a ton of just unrealistic nonsense situations that came up I've wondered how they would be covered under the rules.

One that comes to mind from a casual round: It was an uphill really short par 4 where you couldn't see the surface of the green but could see the flag. It was usually a drive and a flip. So one day a guy I'm playing with hits a nice second from maybe 30 yards and we can hear a click. He rushes up to see the ball sitting against the flag because someone from the last group, probably hours ago, and almost certainly at least ten beers deep, thought it would be funny to fill the hole in. We counted it as a 2 and restored the hole. To be fair, we also thought it was funny and I fear may have repeated the prank later at some other course, because teenage morons.

What would the exact ruling be though? My guess is that we repair the damage and then replace the ball which is placing it in the hole, but is there a strict procedure when replacing the ball means it drops in the hole? What if it was right on the lip?
 
Elbow Jobertski said:
I played a lot of my golf growing up with and around morons, so there are a ton of just unrealistic nonsense situations that came up I've wondered how they would be covered under the rules.

One that comes to mind from a casual round: It was an uphill really short par 4 where you couldn't see the surface of the green but could see the flag. It was usually a drive and a flip. So one day a guy I'm playing with hits a nice second from maybe 30 yards and we can hear a click. He rushes up to see the ball sitting against the flag because someone from the last group, probably hours ago, and almost certainly at least ten beers deep, thought it would be funny to fill the hole in. We counted it as a 2 and restored the hole. To be fair, we also thought it was funny and I fear may have repeated the prank later at some other course, because teenage morons.

What would the exact ruling be though? My guess is that we repair the damage and then replace the ball which is placing it in the hole, but is there a strict procedure when replacing the ball means it drops in the hole? What if it was right on the lip?
Click to expand...

I just love this thread and wanted to give it a bump. Since this would never happen on the pro tour I'm guessing what you did was as close to right as we could ever get.

I'm hoping to hear more wild "how do I score this" stories!

Whiskey
 
Elbow Jobertski said:
I played a lot of my golf growing up with and around morons, so there are a ton of just unrealistic nonsense situations that came up I've wondered how they would be covered under the rules.

One that comes to mind from a casual round: It was an uphill really short par 4 where you couldn't see the surface of the green but could see the flag. It was usually a drive and a flip. So one day a guy I'm playing with hits a nice second from maybe 30 yards and we can hear a click. He rushes up to see the ball sitting against the flag because someone from the last group, probably hours ago, and almost certainly at least ten beers deep, thought it would be funny to fill the hole in. We counted it as a 2 and restored the hole. To be fair, we also thought it was funny and I fear may have repeated the prank later at some other course, because teenage morons.

What would the exact ruling be though? My guess is that we repair the damage and then replace the ball which is placing it in the hole, but is there a strict procedure when replacing the ball means it drops in the hole? What if it was right on the lip?
Click to expand...

There is no direct decision covering this situation, though I'm not quite clear on the method they used to fill the hole in.

In general, however, repairs of any type to a hole are restricted to the committee. In a real tournament, you would suspend play until a committee member came to repair the situation and issue a ruling. Unfortunately, the penalty for repairing the hole yourself is disqualification, so this would be one of the rare situations where I would refuse to proceed without instructions from the committee.

As to how the committee would rule, in both cases I think they would likely rule the ball was not holed as to do otherwise, you would have to have absolute knowledge the ball would have entered the hole if it had not been modified, and that would not be possible since you couldn't see the hole.
 
I feel like we could have a pinned thread on Elbow’s teenage self’s antics and Wadesworld trying to come up with legitimate rulings for them. This is a fantastic start to it.
 
wadesworld said:
There is no direct decision covering this situation, though I'm not quite clear on the method they used to fill the hole in.
Click to expand...

There was a sort of drainage/bad sprinkler head issue behind the green that was muddy. It looked they, leaving the stick in place, filled the hole with mud from that, and pulled off a piece of turf to put on top. You could tell where the old hole was once you got anywhere near it, but it wasn't totally obvious because, well, the course was a total craphole. (It was the 8th hole at Wheeling Park, if anyone wants to visit the scene of the crime. I hear it is even worse now than it was 30 years ago when this happened) By the time we came around it was pretty dry, but still faintly distinct from the rest of the green.



Since the ball came to rest against the flag, and the flag was where it was all along, wouldn't it have to be considered holed? I can see why not, but where does the ball get placed otherwise?
 
I've been thinking about this stuff a lot because I've been working on a novel I'm writing based on my youth golf experiences.

I think I handled this correctly, or at least not illegally.

It was a qualifier for the Big I. I didn't play tournaments outside of school, and I didn't take those seriously. I played that tournament because I saw a flier for it the day before and the entry fee was less than half of the usual greens fee for that course.

I'm on the 4th hole. I hit the fairway. I know one of the guys I'm playing with, who was the one guy in the field I wasn't going to beat. He's now a below scratch golfer who somehow is both a doctor and a lawyer. Feel free to hate him sight unseen. I would, but he was a really good guy, especially for someone born into what passes for money where I grew up. He's just out of the fairway but maybe 70 yards further. The other two were hard to watch. Those guys both go left and we spend a few minutes looking for their balls. When I come out of trees I see that the fairway is being mowed. The mower is going straight towards my ball, and stops. He yells at me to move the ball. I freeze for a second. He yells again. I exchange perplexed glances with Dr. Lawyer. The guy then flips me off and runs over my ball.

Obviously, I get to replace the ball with an undamaged one with no penalty. What I'm curious about is whether I could have moved the ball first. My guess would be no, because being allowed to put your hands on a ball just due to the threat of outside agency would be ripe for all sorts of abuse. "The squirrel was looking RIGHT AT IT WITH MALICIOUS INTENT. Had nothing to do with the lie." That sort of thing that will happen when the money is up.

So could I have saved the ball? Obviously I couldn't have marked it because mower, but I don't think that is the problem. The problem is the general idea of a potential outside agency.
 
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