Real Deal Tour Shafts Vs OEM Made For...Can you tell the difference...How?

ProZoneGolf said:

... As golfers we should demand higher quality, and to accomplish this real deal shafts need to be tested, or get in the hands of golfers that have never tried them

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Why is there not a place for decent "made for" shafts? Are you saying "everyone" should have access to real deal shafts? We don't all drive Mercedes, for various reasons, but let's just go with the cost discussion. I can't afford a Mercedes that has everything I want in it, but I can afford a Honda that gets a large chunk of what I'm looking for. Is the Honda inherently lower quality or not good enough?

Edit: a better example might be Infiniti and Nissan options, but same thinking applies, save for "clear" branding differentiation, which I'd like to see in shafts.

Martsy said:

I have no problem whatsoever with "made for" shafts, but there really should be some visible differentiation in naming convention from "real deal" shafts. I can't think of any other industry off hand where this is practiced intentionally

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I would agree with this. If a shaft is a "made for", then include that on the shaft, as Titleist did a few years ago with Diamana shafts. BTW, I hit those pretty well, regardless of them not being the real deal.

lightningbolt44 said:

...Having a discussion about something is fine but the way this is being handled and the subtle shots nothing productive will come out of the discussion.

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Totally agree with this.

For the THP Adams event, I got a chance to build my own club except a driver, straight out of the tour van at Colonial. I decided on a hybrid. I had the choice of any shaft in there that I wanted, but I stuck with what a knew worked for me and went with a Diamana S+ hy82. Thats as real deal as you can get. I have hit the "made for" version in another hybrid from Edwin Watts and I couldnt tell the difference between the 2 and I got pretty much the same numbers.

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This all can be easily solved by just getting the in the Project X Handcrafted Event and making a shaft of you own. Farm to Plate, its the only way to golf.

lightningbolt44 said:

Quoting myself here the consumer has options if they want to pay for it.

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Sure that's great, but isn't the problem still being portrayed in this discussion that the OEM is passing along aftermarket shafts as stock? If anything what you said makes this even more wrong, since the masses are in fact being duped.

Anyway, I need to move on from this thread. This is the weirdest discussion of golf I've had in a while.

Who's to blame...the shafting companies selling look a like shafts to club head oems, or club head oems selling them. There is a difference in quality, and its very hard for the consumer to tell the difference, regardless of how they hit the ball. How would you feel buying your wife a diamond, and it was lesser quality than you thought. The point is they are selling shafts that look exactly like the pro's play yet they are not the same.
From the posts by THP leaders, I would assume they will not want to take this issue on for their agenda...

or maybe the fitters that want to push aftermarket shafts to people that dont need them?

ProZoneGolf said:

Who's to blame...the shafting companies selling look a like shafts to club head oems, or club head oems selling them. There is a difference in quality, and its very hard for the consumer to tell the difference, regardless of how they hit the ball. How would you feel buying your wife a diamond, and it was lesser quality than you thought. The point is they are selling shafts that look exactly like the pro's play yet they are not the same.
From the post by THP leaders I would assume they will not want to take this issue on for their agenda...

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It' not hard for the consumer at all. Those who care will buy directly from the source. Considering how few genuinely care (beyond the shaft they are using performing to their expectations), I don't think it's a big deal.

Now, your personal agenda, on the other hand... I get the reason for the continued mud dragging and references to OEMs... but i don't really get the reason to lump "THP leaders" into anything. It is a little more than a little sad though.

ProZoneGolf said:

Who's to blame...the shafting companies selling look a like shafts to club head oems, or club head oems selling them. There is a difference in quality, and its very hard for the consumer to tell the difference, regardless of how they hit the ball. How would you feel buying your wife a diamond, and it was lesser quality than you thought. The point is they are selling shafts that look exactly like the pro's play yet they are not the same.
From the post by THP leaders I would assume they will not want to take this issue on for their agenda...

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I've stayed out of this as I believe the easiest way to avoid things that will only add to the drama is by clicking the exit button in the top right of the screen while shaking my head. However...

First off, this "agenda" crap is nonsense. There is no agenda here with this site or with the staff here. We do not, nor will we ever operate that way. THP has working relationships with EVERY club and shaft OEM out there and that is all because we are open and honest with all aspects of our site and reviews.

As to the shaft issue, its is a non-issue IMO because the focus I have is on if a club does what its designed to do or not. I however understand you definitely have a horse in this race with the profession you operate in, and I believe it was pointed out in here quite well earlier that the major issue is likely to ACTUALLY be companies offering premium shafts for no upcharge takes a chunk out of that type of profession.

Its clear you want to stir the pot with it and ramp it up as much as possible, and I am TRULY 100% ok with that. BUT, the constant snide comments/shots at "THP Leaders" and things like "agendas" needs to stop. Its asinine and unwarranted if you simply take the time to see all the information that THP has access to and presents the people on a daily basis FROM THE PEOPLE WHO CREATE, DESIGN, AND PRODUCE these things.

With that said, enjoy the topic, and I hope you get what you are looking for out of it.

sleuth said:

Sure that's great, but isn't the problem still being portrayed in this discussion that the OEM is passing along aftermarket shafts as stock? If anything what you said makes this even more wrong, since the masses are in fact being duped.

Anyway, I need to move on from this thread. This is the weirdest discussion of golf I've had in a while.

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Interesting logic.

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Another problem with made for shafts looking exactly like real deal shafts, is the second hand market or used golf shaft pulls. Some sellers of these shafts list with incorrect descriptions and pricing. How is the buyer or seller to know what is what?

ProZoneGolf said:

Another problem with made for shafts looking exactly like real deal shafts, is the second hand market or used golf shaft pulls. Sellers of these shafts list with incorrect descriptions and pricing. How is the buyer to know what is what?

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Do you also buy your used diamonds off eBay? #WorkingThatCorrelation

ProZoneGolf said:

Another problem with made for shafts looking exactly like real deal shafts, is the second hand market or used golf shaft pulls. Some sellers of these shafts list with incorrect descriptions and pricing. How is the buyer or seller to know what is what?

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Caveat emptor. If you want to know what you're getting 100% of the time, buy it direct.

lightningbolt44 said:

I would be curious to hear how oems now offering "real" shafts as upgrades for no cost is affecting club makers that used to make their money on selling those same aftermarket shafts that are now free.

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I think this is the meat of the OP. OEM's smartened up and offered more shafts across the board at no upcharge and aftermarket fitters are suffering.

this is one of those threads i wish i could hit the ignore button on. can we start a petition to shut this thread down? i'm not a thp leader, so i have no agenda other than asking for quality threads that further interesting and productive golf topic discussion. not trolls stirring pots.

pzg's inference that shaft companies and/or oems are being deceitful in designing made-for shafts that look like retail shafts is bizarre. if he's worried that consumers are being deceived that they are playing the same aldlia rogue that tour guys are playing, where is this being marketed? what oem is saying in any marketing campaign that their driver comes stock with the same shaft that so-and-so played to win such-and-such tournament? and how about this: if i pick up a new driver in a store and see the shaft and think "wow, this is the same shaft dustin johnson uses" then 1) i'm in the top 1% of golfers who actually care about that kind of minutia, and 2) given 1) it should also be a given that i also know the existence of made-for vs retail and can find more information in a variety of ways to make an informed decision for myself and therefore NOT be deceived, and 3) given 1) i am also in the top 5% of golfers who even care to get fit so that made-for will or will not give me the numbers i'm looking for prior to spending cash.

so dude, please stop. i've enjoyed some of your other threads and posts as i think you have a certain amount of knowledge that could be very helpful to some of us. but this type of thread with its patently false accusations make me consider disregarding every post you make. i'm not far from you, and i like to spend $ on golf stuff, and it excites me to patron a store with an owner/user who is active on thp. but at this rate...

Let's move along, guys.

Not worth wasting your time on this one. So many more relevant threads to partake in, let's let this one die.

There are so many great shafts available compared to 20 years ago that I see it as a non-issue for the vast majority of the golfers.

The tolerances for the "stock" Aldila Tour Green shafts that are in my 2Deep and XR Pro 4 wood are plenty good enough for my 0.5 index swing. I have not idea if these are "made for" or not but I'm certain these shafts are much more consistent than my swing. Certainly when I miss a fairway or green it's my swing and not the fault of the shaft. Todays younger golfers can't imagine how crappy some of the early graphite "stock" shafts were back in the 1980's.

ProZoneGolf said:

Who's to blame...the shafting companies selling look a like shafts to club head oems, or club head oems selling them. There is a difference in quality, and its very hard for the consumer to tell the difference, regardless of how they hit the ball. How would you feel buying your wife a diamond, and it was lesser quality than you thought. The point is they are selling shafts that look exactly like the pro's play yet they are not the same.
From the posts by THP leaders, I would assume they will not want to take this issue on for their agenda...

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Listen, I'm on board with some sort of differentiation, on a shaft, if it is a "made for" versus the real deal. I can understand someone being bothered by this (whether it bothers me or not).

But, the bolded part... Why go there? Obviously, you're just trolling, now. I think some of the points and counter-points in the thread have merit, but the above only serves to have folks wonder where your intentions are. You have some skin in this game as well. For the fittings you do, are the club heads interchangeable with shafts using something from Club Conex (or similar)? If so, could you also do some of this kind of testing; made for versus real deal? Based on prior posts, it sounds like Pro Zone probably has a launch monitor of some sort, so seems you're already part way to being able to test the theories.

It would be great if big box stores actually had in stock more real deal shafts that OEM's offer, so the I want it now buyer could compare in the LM. How many of you have had the opportunity to hit a real deal offering that fits you at the store?

ProZoneGolf said:

It would be great if big box stores actually had in stock more real deal shafts that OEM's offer, so the I want it now buyer could compare in the LM. How many of you have had the opportunity to hit a real deal offering that fits you at the store?

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Multiple Times. Companies like Callaway and Cobra offer TONS of No Upcharge Real Deal shafts, and many of them are available on fitting carts.

To some people, it really does matter.

To me it's like years ago,when a new Camaro, Mustang, or Corvette would come out with " 35th edition Indy Pace Car" on the side.

I knew it wasn't a REAL pace car. It was just made to emulate one and be a close copy . ( Totally Aesthetic).

It might be a little more high performance than a stock car.

But, if I wanted one, it would be close enough to a pace car for me.

There are some people that want the exact shaft, and some that look for clubs that came off of the "Tour Van".

I can't afford that. Besides, my game isn't good enough to tell the difference.


Jack

ProZoneGolf said:

Who's to blame...the shafting companies selling look a like shafts to club head oems, or club head oems selling them. There is a difference in quality, and its very hard for the consumer to tell the difference, regardless of how they hit the ball. How would you feel buying your wife a diamond, and it was lesser quality than you thought. The point is they are selling shafts that look exactly like the pro's play yet they are not the same.
From the posts by THP leaders, I would assume they will not want to take this issue on for their agenda...

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Yes...THP has an agenda. Ok, I will accept that. Their agenda from what I've seen as a user (not a forum leader, staff writer or anything else; in fact, this may be the longest post I've ever made here) is to provide real world information for their members. The articles I've read (THP content, as opposed to forum members content) are pretty straightforward, the information is provided, and if you want more, the writers will answer any questions you might have to ask about anything (actual shaft specs for instance) including their personal opinions, and info from the OEM. Beyond that THP takes golfers, good, bad, ugly and shoves them in front of the OEMs, gives every day joes TONS of equipment with the stipulation that they, the every day golfers: the teaching pros, the weekend warriors, the 30 handicap guys, give their thoughts about the equipment. So yes, THP has an agenda, it's pretty plain. They want people to make informed decisions. Terrible Terrible people they are.

Your agenda is about as subtle as a bulletin board in flashing neon.

People that ACTUALLY care about the shaft will understand the differences and buy what works for them, and they will not be running around "I'm hitting the same shaft Jordan has!" That seems to be your big complaint. Anyone that believes they're hitting the same clubs/equipment as a pro is probably not going to be on this board (or they'll soon learn otherwise) not because they're not welcome, but because they DON'T CARE. They're walking into a big box store and walking out with a $400 driver. They don't do much research, golf is an occasional hobby, or a place to hobnob with the rich and famous/clients/appease their father-in-law. For that market segment the OEMs could put a giant "THIS IS NOT THE SAME SHAFT USED BY TOUR PROS" sticker on the shaft, and they wouldn't care. They're buying it because they want it, or because it's pretty, or it matches their bag or, some other equally valid reason. For them the shaft is irrelevant. It's just the stick thingy that holds the "GREATEST CLUB EVER" together.

There are people like me that are in between, I don't particularly care what shaft is in a club as long as it works, if I were to go out and drop multiple hundreds of dollars on a club or set of clubs, I'm going to get fit and probably use whatever shaft is best that the fitter can get and install relatively quickly. I'm not out looking to get the "perfect" shaft for my clubs, I want a good club, and the truth is I couldn't tell you the difference between model A & model B of a shaft.

I could write more. I won't. The short of it is, the onus is always on the consumer to be informed. The information is out there (thanks in no small part to THP) if a buyer wants to know the full info on the equipment they're buying they should do the research. Pretty basic consumerism, the guy trying to sell you something should not be the only source of information you use. Especially in this day and age, if you've got a smartphone, you can have any info you need in a matter of minutes. If someone is not willing to put that much effort in to researching an expensive product, they get no sympathy from me.

ProZoneGolf said:

It would be great if big box stores actually had in stock more real deal shafts that OEM's offer, so the I want it now buyer could compare in the LM. How many of you have had the opportunity to hit a real deal offering that fits you at the store?

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Your expectations are terrific but far outside reality for the average consumer or store. Best option for any THPer is to get to a THP event. Accurate LM, newest gear, and typically several AM "real deal" shafts on hand to mess with. Outside of that you will need to spend some money and go to a reputable fitter with several options on hand. Big Box stores are fine for what they are, but they are into selling in volume and not perfecting individual performance on the level you are looking for.

In regards to the Aldila Rogue they are made in Taiwan and USA, many players are opting for the USA model...here is a snip of info from another site

I spoke with my swing coach who has an account with Aldila and he has confirmed that the shafts that are ordered through dealers are a batch that is produced in Vietnam and the graphics are put on here in the US, the actual "Made in US" etched models are indeed made in the US. So there you have it.

My Aldila Rogue o/i 70x 110msi from Callaway tested had a butt sticker made in Taiwan, it was far from radial consistent...

FWIW: I don't have a agenda or need to make money from golf shafts, I want whats best for the player / consumer, quite often I do free club work to help people at my GC play better

So one post from one golfer on another site constitutes "many"...

Interesting logic there but par for the course with the thread

ProZoneGolf said:

In regards to the Aldila Rogue they are made in Taiwan and USA, many players are opting for the USA model...here is a snip of info from another site

I spoke with my swing coach who has an account with Aldila and he has confirmed that the shafts that are ordered through dealers are a batch that is produced in Vietnam and the graphics are put on here in the US, the actual "Made in US" etched models are indeed made in the US. So there you have it.

My Aldila Rogue o/i 70x 110msi from Callaway tested had a butt sticker made in Taiwan, it was far from radial consistent...

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Is there a reason you seem to be ignoring all of the questions or info posed from other posters? I would love to continue the discussion, but currently it is akin to just slamming my forehead into a wall. I love these types of discussions, and I know you have a ton of club building knowledge, but I think you should take some time to read other peoples thoughts/questions and respond to them as well