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Should Courses Enact a HC Check on Tees

aklawitter said:
10 strokes over 18 holes is nothing
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Based on my experience I wouldn’t dismiss 10 strokes, considering each stroke could take about 2-3 minutes (locating ball, club selection, practice swings if any, making the stroke). 20-30 minutes doesn’t seem like nothing.


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c.a.eleric said:
objectively i agree, more strokes will always equal more time. but i don't think people are walking off golf courses over a pace of play that is excessive by 10-15 minutes; i think it's the 5-hour round when people feel golf should be played in 3.5-4 hours. those extra 10 strokes don't account for the 60-90 minutes of excessive pace, there are other behaviors (or lack thereof) that lead to this.
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I never said it’s the sole factor, the OP is asking if it would help, and I believe it would even if it doesn’t solve the entire problem. I don’t think the OP is assuming this change would solve all pace problems, just provide a bit of relief.


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aklawitter said:
I don't have a HC. Guess I can't play.
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Easy to keep one.

And when I'm tearing up my swing and starting over, like right after a few lessons, I don't keep score. Not fair to me or opponents/partners.

As to tees, they made a 6 go to the white? I might be playing the reds. HC is not always a good indication of a player's weaknesses - tee to around green might be great, but short game might stink. HC is fairly general, doesn't point out the issues.

I sometimes put this in the category of being told one is no longer a stiff flex, but a regular, or egad, a senior flex. One can't handle the truth. Same thing off the tee - be realistic and not ego driven.

If you can't drive a certain distance, are constantly crooked, and are always coming to the green with fairways and hybrids, it might be best to move up a tee box. And get some lessons and start on flexibility and strength.

I also find "slow" on the greens. Everyone thinks they're a PGA Tour Pro and must gauge every angle. Find a green reading system that works, practice that system, and get fast with that system. Some greens can't be read - get over it, putt it close and maybe you get lucky - but putt. Or play with someone with experience on that course.

When I'm paired with someone I don't know, and they say, 'I'm not good.' I say, "Look, I don't care how many you take, as long as you play fast and we keep a good pace."
 
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BuckNasty said:
I’m not sure why you are writing this off as ridiculous and misguided. If the same golfer is taking 90 strokes off the white tees and 100 off the blue, how does that not equate to a slower pace of play. I think it’s pretty logical that more strokes equal more time when all other variables are the same (golfer, course, etc.)

Obviously other factors go into pace of play but it seems ridiculous to think a factor that results in more strokes is it the bottom of the list.

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Number of shots taken is not an indicator of slow play, it is the person taking the shots that is the issue - I have played with beginners who couldn't get anywhere near breaking 100, yet we were still round in 3hrs 30min and kept up with the groups in front

I have also been out with low handicap players who shoot low 70's but couldn't get round a course in under 4 hours

It can be the same the other way round with some people, but it is the person that is always the issue
 
BuckNasty said:
I’m not sure why you are writing this off as ridiculous and misguided. If the same golfer is taking 90 strokes off the white tees and 100 off the blue, how does that not equate to a slower pace of play. I think it’s pretty logical that more strokes equal more time when all other variables are the same (golfer, course, etc.)

Obviously other factors go into pace of play but it seems ridiculous to think a factor that results in more strokes is it the bottom of the list.


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because its only a "pace problem" if that player is problematic slow regardless of the tee. Its the same thing as one (like me) who can score an 86 and also shoot 100. sure im taking more strokes in the 100 round but either way i still play within respectable pace. One of my fastest 4some rounds this year happened to be a round in which i was terribly playing and carded (if i recall correctly) a 98 or 99. Not only didnt i slow down my group down at all but in the end was one fastest times (was about 345) that the pace went this season. If extra strokes is death to pace then how come I was able to keep perfectly with what was a faster than normal pace even though i had many extra strokes? Extra strokes (within reason) does not at all mean the person has to be a pace problem.
 
TheDoctor said:
Number of shots taken is not an indicator of slow play, it is the person taking the shots that is the issue - I have played with beginners who couldn't get anywhere near breaking 100, yet we were still round in 3hrs 30min and kept up with the groups in front

I have also been out with low handicap players who shoot low 70's but couldn't get round a course in under 4 hours

It can be the same the other way round with some people, but it is the person that is always the issue
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That is what I pointed out in my original post, if you keep all factors the same, that same player is going to take longer to play 100 strokes than it will 90. Obviously each player plays at a different pace, but if that slow player is taking an extra 60 minutes over normal pace to play 100 strokes, and we assume a slow player takes 30 minutes to play 10 strokes, moving up to appropriate tees and shooting a 90 should cut that excess pace of play in half (60 minutes down to 30). Still longer than a round should take, but provides a bit of relief that is needed when a course is packed on the weekend.


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Based on the two-three years of time tracking I did for two courses, I would say is there little correlation between handicap and pace of play.

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Golf Ghost said:
Based on the two-three years of time tracking I did for two courses, I would say is there little correlation between handicap and pace of play.

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/thread

glad to hear someone has some data to support this
 
Should Courses Enact a HC Check on Tees

rollin said:
because its only a "pace problem" if that player is problematic slow regardless of the tee. Its the same thing as one (like me) who can score an 86 and also shoot 100. sure im taking more strokes in the 100 round but either way i still play within respectable pace. One of my fastest 4some rounds this year happened to be a round in which i was terribly playing and carded (if i recall correctly) a 98 or 99. Not only didnt i slow down my group down at all but in the end was one fastest times (was about 345) that the pace went this season. If extra strokes is death to pace then how come I was able to keep perfectly with what was a faster than normal pace even though i had many extra strokes? Extra strokes (within reason) does not at all mean the person has to be a pace problem.
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No one ever said someone who shoots 100 has to always be slower than someone who shoots 90. But if you take into account the same golfer and same variables, they are going to be slower when shooting 100 instead 90. Obviously each individual can have their own pace, but when slow players are playing tees that add strokes it becomes a problem.




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dduarte85 said:
I just don’t know why if someone hits driver 230 they’re playing tees at 6900 yards. The game is hard enough.
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This is me, I like to keep it under 6400 and have played down to 5860 on several occasions.
As far as checking the HC by the starter, I just don't see it working, guys will just get out and change tees when they get away from the clubhouse.
 
Why is it when pace of play and tees are mentioned, it is always the higher scoring players that get picked on?

What about a low handicap player moving forward tees? If they are then suddenly going to shoot 10 shots lower (like a higher handicap shooting 90 instead of 100) they should be finished quicker as well?

Number of shots taken and handicap is a small fraction of the reasons for slow play in my opinion
 
BuckNasty said:
No one ever said some who shoots 100 has to always be slower than someone who shoots 90. But if you take into account the same golfer, they are going to be slower when shooting 100 instead 90. Obviously each individual can have their own pace, but when slow players are playing tees that add strokes it becomes a problem.


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but if a person is not a pace problem they are still not going to be one even with the extra strokes. When i play poorly I just do everything in between shots faster than normal. Its about awareness and willingness. people who have that will move just as well with less or more strokes. people who dont have that will be a problem with lessor or more strokes. The extra strokes that may be required via longer tees is just not the difference maker too many people feel it is.
 
Should Courses Enact a HC Check on Tees

rollin said:
but if a person is not a pace problem they are still not going to be one even with the extra strokes. When i play poorly I just do everything in between shots faster than normal. Its about awareness and willingness. people who have that will move just as well with less or more strokes. people who dont have that will be a problem with lessor or more strokes. The extra strokes that may be required via longer tees is just not the difference maker too many people feel it is.
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Ok let’s just take into account the slow players who lack awareness, don’t move faster between shots and have a routine for each stroke. Do you not think number of strokes has an impact on their pace of play/time to finish a round? From reading the OP I don’t get the impression that he is implying that this change will completely get rid of slow play, but just provide it some relief.


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TheDoctor said:
Why is it when pace of play and tees are mentioned, it is always the higher scoring players that get picked on?

What about a low handicap player moving forward tees? If they are then suddenly going to shoot 10 shots lower (like a higher handicap shooting 90 instead of 100) they should be finished quicker as well?

Number of shots taken and handicap is a small fraction of the reasons for slow play in my opinion
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and ther in lies one of the biggest reasons as to why too many people think tees are the problem when they really are not. You see...it cant possibly be the fault of a player who is pretty good at the game because well....they are good. and so it automatically becomes the player spraying balls off the tee in front of them who in the mind of the better player are on the wrong tee m, have no business being there, and are causing all the pace problems in the world. Even the ideas that someone having a bad tee day and may be spraying tee shots is playing the wrong set is wrong too. they may be just having a bad day and for all you know may be longer than you. Most everything about this is so misguided in thought processing.
 
TheDoctor said:
Why is it when pace of play and tees are mentioned, it is always the higher scoring players that get picked on?

What about a low handicap player moving forward tees? If they are then suddenly going to shoot 10 shots lower (like a higher handicap shooting 90 instead of 100) they should be finished quicker as well?

Number of shots taken and handicap is a small fraction of the reasons for slow play in my opinion
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I would assume this to be true as well. If any level of handicap player takes less strokes to finish a round it should result in a shorter round. This will only hold true if all other variables are the same (course played, average time spent to find ball, not waiting behind groups ahead of you, etc.)


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Tadashi70 said:
I don’t think it’s a good idea for a couple reasons. 1. It would not be well recurved and would drive people away from the game 2. I don’t think playing wrong tee is the problem.

I see people playing the right tee playing slow. It’s about playing ready golf and not going to each other’s ball to watch each other hit. Or telling a long story when someone is trying to putt. Or lining up a putt from four sides only to slam it past the hole and repeat the process. I see less and less people playing the tips these days.
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Agreed !
 
rollin said:
and ther in lies one of the biggest reasons as to why too many people think tees are the problem when they really are not. You see...it cant possibly be the fault of a player who is pretty good at the game because well....they are good. and so it automatically becomes the player spraying balls off the tee in front of them who in the mind of the better player are on the wrong tee m, have no business being there, and are causing all the pace problems in the world. Even the ideas that someone having a bad tee day and may be spraying tee shots is playing the wrong set is wrong too. they may be just having a bad day and for all you know may be longer than you. Most everything about this is so misguided in thought processing.
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Going to regret this but...eff it. Speaking of misguided reasoning, do you have any data to back up your claims in a prior post of yours about the order of reasons for slow pace of play? Surely with such strong convictions on this you'd have something to back it up.
 
Maybe this will help maybe not.
I am a lower HC player, but don't drive the ball a long way. If you put me back at 6800-7000 yards I am going to be slower because of an extra shot on long par 4's, not because I am spraying shots all over the place but because I don't drive the ball a long way. I will have to depend on my second shots getting close and then short chips with one putt to score.
Simple fact is that is not fun, challenging yes, but not worth it to me.
The simple fact is until people learn to let faster group thru there will always be a pace problem on course, and most of the time this is on weekends and not mid week.
 
rollin said:
haha..sorry. But i just get tired of hearing how everyone has figured out that the the reason for a 5 hr round is due to tee choice. The biggest reasons for pace are tee time intervals, secondly is course layout, then of coourse its about ready golf, pace awareness, greens play, and things like ball searching and just really an outright care and awareness of the pace one is playing by.
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So you blame the courses for slow play and the way they send people out. I ran the box at CC of Miami on the weekends at 8 min intervals with at least a half dozen squeezes by members that wanted to join one of three men’s groups we had. Plus we had the general public. We ran at 4:05 on the weekends for 18 holes. 140 rounds on each course every weekend. I’ve seen the same at several courses in orlando.
 
Snickerdog said:
I am a lower HC player, but don't drive the ball a long way. If you put me back at 6800-7000 yards I am going to be slower because of an extra shot on long par 4's, not because I am spraying shots all over the place but because I don't drive the ball a long way. I will have to depend on my second shots getting close and then short chips with one putt to score.
Simple fact is that is not fun, challenging yes, but not worth it to me.
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not really relevant to op, but i want to say i love that you have found a distance from which you are comfortable playing, that gives you the best opportunity to play to a level with which you are happy and continuing to enjoy the game. you have found that tipping point at which any longer would start to diminish your enjoyment, and any shorter won't present quite the challenge you prefer. good on you. i object to anyone claiming you have a "vanity" handicap because you have found this equilibrium.
 
BuckNasty said:
Ok let’s just take into account the slow players who lack awareness, don’t move faster between shots and have a routine for each stroke. Do you not think number of strokes has an impact on their pace of play/time to finish a round? From reading the OP I don’t get the impression that he is implying that this change will completely get rid of slow play, but just provide it some relief.


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no because i think the problem slow people are a problem regardless. Your just going to find relief worthwhile enough to make in impact. i tell you ..........i am so confident that if we went to a course that has 5 hr rounds as a norm and we moved everyone up a tee set....that the course will still play at 5hrs or close to it. sometimes shorter and sometimes longer. maybe.,..just barely maybe we would find the 'sometimes shorter' a tad more often vs the sometimes longer. I st dont believ its the impact people think it is. id be willing to bet most anything that would be the case.

Now if we took that ame slow course with 7 or 8 minute tee times? and made them 11 minutes? id bet anything we would see a consistent 20 minute (if not more) drop in that problematic pace. that would do far more than tee choice would. not to mention the other pace issues by the golf gods who think because they are good that they are not slow. Like haing nature strike them with lightening every time they utilize too much time on the greens. That too would run that 5hr round down another half hour.
 
I've played some courses with a recommended handicap for each set of tees printed on the scorecard. I think that's a good 'in between' solution - it's not abrasive, but also helps people make a good choice.

I agree that tee selection isn't the biggest pace of play problem, but it's an easy one to get right, that's why it gets picked on. Playing courses at too long of yardage means you're adding time re-teeing, looking for lost balls, hitting an extra shot to the green, etc. That stuff adds up, especially for a foursome.
 
Golf Ghost said:
Based on the two-three years of time tracking I did for two courses, I would say is there little correlation between handicap and pace of play.

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That's good enough for me!
 
Tadashi70 said:
So you blame the courses for slow play and the way they send people out. I ran the box at CC of Miami on the weekends at 8 min intervals with at least a half dozen squeezes by members that wanted to join one of three men’s groups we had. Plus we had the general public. We ran at 4:05 on the weekends for 18 holes. 140 rounds on each course every weekend. I’ve seen the same at several courses in orlando.
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thats good. All i can say is the only thing i see from where i live now 9with an average weekend round of 420) vs where i use to live 9with an ave weekend round of 5 at least and very often 5 and half) is that one place had 7 min tees while the other 10.
similar courses, similar people out there. yet thats the "only" difference I can find between the two. Plus your talking CC (or privates) and we all knwo is a bit difference vs public. many more people more aware of pace in one enviornment vs the other.
 
joebute said:
I've played some courses with a recommended handicap for each set of tees printed on the scorecard. I think that's a good 'in between' solution - it's not abrasive, but also helps people make a good choice.

I agree that tee selection isn't the biggest pace of play problem, but it's an easy one to get right, that's why it gets picked on. Playing courses at too long of yardage means you're adding time re-teeing, looking for lost balls, hitting an extra shot to the green, etc. That stuff adds up, especially for a foursome.
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it can. But peolle also spray balls from the tees more forward too. and also spray approach shots too. heck people spray wedges into weeds and wood and wherever too.
 
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