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I Believe in Club Fitting, But I Can't Explain This

Nippon Shafts
Reframmellator

Reframmellator

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Albatross 2024 Club
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As the title says, I believe getting properly fitted for clubs improves your chances to play better golf.

Then this happened.

In 2016, I got fitted for a set of Ping G irons - 1/2" long, 3* up lie angle, and +1/32" grips. This after checking out something like eight different iron sets and hitting maybe fifty 7 and 9 irons with the Gs. I like the clubs and have played OK with them. They felt a little different at first, but that has been true every time I got new irons. They feel normal now. The biggest complaint I have about them is inconsistency. They feel great, they look good to me at address, but I don't have as consistent a ball flight as I like, and I tend to hit more fat shots than normal with them.

Enter 2018 and, thanks to THP, a long-term test with a set of "standard" M4 irons. They felt extremely comfortable and familiar right out of the box, and from shot one, I've had the most consistent iron play I've ever had. Straighter, more consistent shots and fewer fat ones.

Believe me, I am not complaining, but I am curious as to why this has happened. Why would I play better with clubs that are supposed to be too short, too flat, and too skinny, gripwise?
 
Unfortunately, I cannot offer any explanation. Just had my first real fitting at Tour Edge last week and several things came out vastly different than what I have always told I should play and have played. Don't have the clubs yet, but I am going to trust it and hope the results speaks for themselves in a good way. Biggest thing was iron / wedge lie angles. For years I have been playing irons that are 2 - 2.5 flatter than what I was fit to. Some other smaller differences from current to fit were revealed but the lie angles were easily the biggest eye opener.
 
Here are two options:
1) Over the years your swing changed, you maybe needed to switch to a lighter shaft (you never mentioned what shaft which is the biggest thing especially if you are talking consistancy) And maybe the M4 shafts that came in that set are naturally a better fit for you. The lie angle isn't ideal but the clubs are built for so much forgiveness you will get away with it nicely.

2) Your pings may have been fit with a lie board. which does not account for shaft droop or you feeling the contact and adjusting your swing. The lie board is just a terrible way to check lie angles, face tape or foot spray on the face will yield a better lie angle fit.

ok going to add another one..
Maybe you are one of the rare sorts that just need a set of irons to be strong lofted because of your attack/impact. So you ended up with power spec on the Pings and then the M4s are super strong out of the gate as well.
 
Yup, swings change and even posture can evolve over time.

Just 3-4 years ago I very comfortably played irons 3° more upright and 1/4" longer than I do at present. Only, those are absolute hook machines now. Still have them, still hook them every time I break them out.
 
What does your fitter say?
 
Are the standard M4 irons as long as your Pings, or longer? Some manufacturers have lengthened the "standard" length over time.
 
No offense intended, but at your handicap level (assuming the 26 in your profile is correct) I would have guessed your swing has changed over time

Also, the standard length/lie of clubs is potentially different from manufacturer to manufacturer, so the standard in the M4 could well be a better fit for you now

If you want to know more, I would be tempted to take your Ping clubs and go back to your fitter and see if they get the same results as you got when you were first fitted for them
 
The explanation is easy. Your swing changed and these clubs fit. It will change again and they won’t, you’ll move to another set. Unless you have a some what repeatable swing you’ll hand hit or miss luck with fittings and/or clubs.
 
It’s great that the M4s work so well for you, as is. Others have already given possible reasons. As another tester, I also have played better with the M4s. I’m really curious about the results from a CC fitting, I plan to get this winter. My Ping Eye 2+ are 1* upright, which were appropriate for me at the time. It will be interesting to see what the data says.
 
I had the same issues with my GMax Irons.
Got fit 2x for them and as soon as I hit the JGR's from the rack - The GMax experiment was done.
At the time, my HDCP was the same as yours and to be honest, in your case, as it is in my case @Glfaholic is correct:

Maybe you are one of the rare sorts that just need a set of irons to be strong lofted because of your attack/impact. So you ended up with power spec on the Pings and then the M4s are super strong out of the gate as well.

Also I had a set to Taylormade's that I didn't have to adjust the lie (Usually I play 3* up). I think TM has a high lie angle - all the manufactures are different.

I sympathize with your frustration....
 
Seems like it's either hit or miss when switching to a different set. I'm in favor of having iron sets come with a money back guarantee if you find out they don't work for you after 25 rounds of golf.
 
Yeah I think I agree with Tadashi. Swings always evolving and changing. That's why the club that I was just enamored with years ago because I bombed it - no longer works the same way for me.

I 2nd your thoughts on the m4's though. They are fantastic clubs and I'm glad they're working so well for you.
 
I've got a fitting scheduled with Scott Felix on Saturday. I'm interested to see the results. When I bought my irons, I did the lie board, hit a few 7 iron shots into a net with impact tape on the club and had some static measurements taken. From that, I ended up with irons that are 3.5 degrees upright and +1 1/2 inches. And I switched shafts from graphite to steel. The irons that I had prior to these were +1/2 inch and 4 degrees upright. My woods and hybrids are standard lie and length.

At first, the extra length was a bit uncomfortable and I hit a lot of shots fat. My usual shots were a little push fade. Now, after a layoff due to back issues and a fusion, my typical ball flight is a draw with the miss being a bit of a pull hook. My 54 and 58 are +1/2 and standard lie. I tend to hit them toward the toe with a bit of fade. We'll see how it goes.
 
One year I was 1 degree upright. Next year I was back down to standard. Always changing. Posture, swing path, stance, alignment, spine angle, etc.
 
Your swing changes over time. Period.

Especially for us hackers who don't hit thousands of balls every day in order to groove a swing. I used to hit a draw ALL the time when I was a kid, now I couldn't hit one if I tried.
 
TM tends to set their clubs pretty upright to begin with.
 
Reframmellator said:
As the title says, I believe getting properly fitted for clubs improves your chances to play better golf.

Then this happened.

In 2016, I got fitted for a set of Ping G irons - 1/2" long, 3* up lie angle, and +1/32" grips. This after checking out something like eight different iron sets and hitting maybe fifty 7 and 9 irons with the Gs. I like the clubs and have played OK with them. They felt a little different at first, but that has been true every time I got new irons. They feel normal now. The biggest complaint I have about them is inconsistency. They feel great, they look good to me at address, but I don't have as consistent a ball flight as I like, and I tend to hit more fat shots than normal with them.

Enter 2018 and, thanks to THP, a long-term test with a set of "standard" M4 irons. They felt extremely comfortable and familiar right out of the box, and from shot one, I've had the most consistent iron play I've ever had. Straighter, more consistent shots and fewer fat ones.

Believe me, I am not complaining, but I am curious as to why this has happened. Why would I play better with clubs that are supposed to be too short, too flat, and too skinny, gripwise?
Click to expand...

I don't find club fitting to be meaningful in terms of improved shot making or scoring.
I think that club fitting is mostly an "experience" for customers to enjoy.
 
Thanks for all of the insights. My swing definitely does change, sometimes hole to hole, so I guess I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.

Sean said:
Are the standard M4 irons as long as your Pings, or longer? Some manufacturers have lengthened the "standard" length over time.
Click to expand...

I checked the specs and the standard clubs are exactly the same lengths in both sets. And, as someone pointed out, the TMs are more upright than the Pings - from 2.4 deg in the 4-iron to 0.4 deg in the PW. That could be part of why I play better with the longer TM irons than their Ping counterparts.

At some point this winter, I'll pull the Pings out and play an indoor round or two with them, just to see how they work with my swing at the time.
 
Reframmellator said:
Thanks for all of the insights. My swing definitely does change, sometimes hole to hole, so I guess I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.



I checked the specs and the standard clubs are exactly the same lengths in both sets. And, as someone pointed out, the TMs are more upright than the Pings - from 2.4 deg in the 4-iron to 0.4 deg in the PW. That could be part of why I play better with the longer TM irons than their Ping counterparts.

At some point this winter, I'll pull the Pings out and play an indoor round or two with them, just to see how they work with my swing at the time.
Click to expand...

This is what I fail to understand: If your swing changes from hour to hour, how reliable can a "fitting" possibly be?
When I showed up for a fitting, I was surprised to see I'd be hitting into a small net. So I asked the 'fitter' "How does this make sense if I and U cannot see the flight of the ball? He said, 'The computer tells us that'....Then I told him that my swing and contact completely change after about 50-75 shots, or 6 to 7 holes. He said "It doesn't matter".
Then I asked , (in my own humble way), "What makes you qualified to accurately analyze my swing, are you a professional teacher, professional player, scratch handicap? No to all the above, but "I know where to push the buttons on the analyzer".... I'm still looking for a more comprehensive facility. Was I wrong?
 
aknow said:
This is what I fail to understand: If your swing changes from hour to hour, how reliable can a "fitting" possibly be?
When I showed up for a fitting, I was surprised to see I'd be hitting into a small net. So I asked the 'fitter' "How does this make sense if I and U cannot see the flight of the ball? He said, 'The computer tells us that'....Then I told him that my swing and contact completely change after about 50-75 shots, or 6 to 7 holes. He said "It doesn't matter".
Then I asked , (in my own humble way), "What makes you qualified to accurately analyze my swing, are you a professional teacher, professional player, scratch handicap? No to all the above, but "I know where to push the buttons on the analyzer".... I'm still looking for a more comprehensive facility. Was I wrong?
Click to expand...

Bear in mind I'm probably about to tell you more than I know. :bulgy-eyes:

After reading the replies here, I think there are two levels of value from a fitting. The first level comes from having clubs that in general fit the "average swing" with your body. These are things like length and grip size. Lie angle is a little bit of body dimensions, but that is also one thing that is adjusted based upon how you swang the club at the fitting. As the hacker's (my) swing moves all over the place, the clubs will work better at some times than others. It's sort of like having your shots go all over the place. Your best bet is to aim at the target, even though you probably won't hit it. Same with a fitting.

The second level kicks in when a golfer has a reasonably repeatable swing. Say a golfer consistently hits a high fade. The skilled fitter can adjust not only length/lie/grip size, but also things like shafts to improve the results. If you hit a consistent fade, you can allow for that in your aim, and a fitter can allow for that in what he recommends.

It also explains why golfers in my handicap range get a pretty basic fitting compared to what better players often get.
 
When looking at the top 10 professionals in strokes gained on approach shots, guess what was the one thing they all had in common? It wasn't the clubhead or the shaft. Not one had the same combination. It was that they all were custom fit. But there are two things that make fitting different for players like us.

1) A fitting isn't always a fitting. Few of us really get a comprehensive fitting.
2) The way you fit a tour pro and the way you fit one of us usually SHOULD be different in approach.

To the first statement. A half a dozen swings on the strike board...call it a fitting. Bring out 2 heads and four head/shaft combinations and call it a fitting. Few do a comprehensive club fitting. Few players were interviewed by the fitter to understand the state of their game and where they are headed. Few fitters knew what they were doing.

To the second point, should you fit a 14-year-old who has been playing less than a year the same way as you do a tour pro? Should you fit a 65-year-old who has been playing 40 years the same as either the 14-year-old or the tour pro. No, you should not.

Here is what this means in practice.

A guy who is 25-years old and still taking lessons and learning the game IS going to see some changes to his setup and swing. But he's NOT going to go from 5 foot 9 to 6 foot 5 in height. His stature is what it is. A fitter in this circumstance should fit him for club length and lie angle based upon a proper setup, not necessarily his current setup. The wise fitter and swing instructor will do this so that as the golfer improves his stance and swing path s/he sees the benefits. Similarly, they'll select a shaft based mostly on swing speed and tempo. Quirks in the swing may change, but these things likely will not--unless a significant change in tempo is specifically something the instructor and student are working on changing.

The 65-year-old who has been playing for 40 years probably isn't going to see much change in their swing. They will likely see a gradual decline in their swing speed. But with a few provisos, most of the time the fitter should be fitting this person for their current setup and swing, perhaps with a nod to the fact that over time their swing speed is going to decline.
 
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