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putting with the pin in pace of play

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mski

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Will it really pick up the pace? For us the hackers not the pro's.

Is the group on the green done?
The pin is in, we good to go? No wait, one guy just pulled the pin. No wait another guy just put in in to putt.
They are done, go ahead and hit. I think they are all done....opps!! Sorry we saw the pin in. Didn't mean to hit up on you. Guess you weren't all done putting.

It will be interesting how much this type of scenario plays out in this year.

The next future rule will be an additional flag on the side of the green letting the group behind know the group on the green is done. Sort of like the blind green flag pole thing.
 
I have wondered much myself. Do not see it speeding up play at all, just adding confusion to the behind. But then again i see that if you cannot "SEE" when the green is clear, you probably can't reach it either....
 
mski said:
Will it really pick up the pace? For us the hackers not the pro's.

Is the group on the green done?
The pin is in, we good to go? No wait, one guy just pulled the pin. No wait another guy just put in in to putt.
They are done, go ahead and hit. I think they are all done....opps!! Sorry we saw the pin in. Didn't mean to hit up on you. Guess you weren't all done putting.

It will be interesting how much this type of scenario plays out in this year.

The next future rule will be an additional flag on the side of the green letting the group behind know the group on the green is done. Sort of like the blind green flag pole thing.
Click to expand...

I don't hit to a green where there are people standing. I wait until they are driving away. So this scenario should never happen.
 
I really don't see it improving pace of play if the flag were left in on every hole. Unless you have people that move at a snails pace, may save an extra 10 seconds per hole (3 minutes per round) but that is about the extent of it IMO. But I am thinking that the vast majority will still pull the flag when closer to the hole so that will eat into the 10 seconds savings.
 
Sox_Fan said:
I really don't see it improving pace of play if the flag were left in on every hole. Unless you have people that move at a snails pace, may save an extra 10 seconds per hole (3 minutes per round) but that is about the extent of it IMO. But I am thinking that the vast majority will still pull the flag when closer to the hole so that will eat into the 10 seconds savings.
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... I am guessing sooner rather than later, all golfers will leave the pin in. I cannot imagine any scenario, other than strong winds bending the flag severely toward you, where it is not an advantage to putt with the pin still in. Sure, you will have traditionalists that don't want to keep up with the modern game and I remember many saying they would never switch form persimmon to metal. It was a travesty when balls were marked on the green and the stymie was eliminated. I could do this all day. 5 years from now kids taking up the game will marvel at old timers that had to putt with the flag out of the hole.
 
I am curious why (approximately 50 years ago) the Rule was made penalizing a player for playing a shot from the green which touches the flag stick within the hole. Was it due to some players wanting the flag in, others out, and this causing pace of play issues ?
 
Despite Bryson DeChambeau's preference, I don't think keeping the pin in is going to help golf unless one is playing alone. I've hit the pin from just off the green a number of times in the last couple of months, and only one went in. I personally think there is more room for the ball when the pin is out.
 
olperfesser said:
Despite Bryson DeChambeau's preference, I don't think keeping the pin in is going to help golf unless one is playing alone. I've hit the pin from just off the green a number of times in the last couple of months, and only one went in. I personally think there is more room for the ball when the pin is out.
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... Plenty of testing has been done (Dave Pelz for one) that shows only balls traveling too fast to hole might not drop with the flag in. And those shots are helped by the flag bouncing off and remaining closer than if they had skipped over the hole and traveled much farther past the hole. Or more simply, the flag helps bad putts and doesn't hurt good putts.
 
Chisag said:
... Plenty of testing has been done (Dave Pelz for one) that shows only balls traveling too fast to hole might not drop with the flag in. And those shots are helped by the flag bouncing off and remaining closer than if they had skipped over the hole and traveled much farther past the hole. Or more simply, the flag helps bad putts and doesn't hurt good putts.
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I saw this as well. The only putt it seems to hurt, assuming pin is in straight and not leaning, is the one traveling fast that hits the back of the cup and jumps straight up.
 
I don't love the visual when putting with the flag in. I might leave it in for lag putts or maybe on a scary fast downhill putt, but when I'm thinking "make," I will take it out.

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I really think the whole keeping the flag in and affect on Pace of play is over thought. Rather it stays in or comes out, those who are slow will still be slow.

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Why are you hitting up when you see the pin go in?? You hit up when the group clears the green AND drives away in their carts.
 
Our Society has used the new rules for most of 2018.

It works but it will take time to for people to get used to. When everybody gets onboard which took the whole season it speeds things up.

It leads to less questions about the rules from the more unfamiliar esp ...can I repair that mark on the green?

The out of bounds rule helps a ton esp when everybody was sure it was in .

Flag in whilst waiting for others to place there bags behind the green is a massive time saver.

Give it at least 6 months to settle in.




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I personally don't think it will make much of a difference either way. What really slows down play is not playing ready golf.
 
Thanks for sharing your group's experience Big Bear. The lag putting while waiting on others to get stowed away and onto the green was one of the scenarios I thought would help with pace a little.
 
If you can see a flag in, you can see people on the green. I wait for carts to move if it's blind so no reason to hit whatsoever, thus I don't see your scenario even happening for me.

As for the actual pace of play with the rule, I can see it going both faster and slower, but very incrementally if anything, maybe 10-20 seconds a hole. Now, if you have to constantly pull and replace the flag for different people in the group, that's where pace can now deteriorate even further.
 
I have been putting with the pin out for about 55+ years w/o any problems.
 
tpluff said:
If you can see a flag in, you can see people on the green. I wait for carts to move if it's blind so no reason to hit whatsoever, thus I don't see your scenario even happening for me.

As for the actual pace of play with the rule, I can see it going both faster and slower, but very incrementally if anything, maybe 10-20 seconds a hole. Now, if you have to constantly pull and replace the flag for different people in the group, that's where pace can now deteriorate even further.
Click to expand...

If players take "ready golf" to the greens it could speed up place of play quite a bit.
For example, player A with the 40 footer could putt before players B, C, D even set foot on the green. Player B could then putt his 30 footer while player C lines up his own 20 foot chip shot etc...
 
DG_1234 said:
If players take "ready golf" to the greens it could speed up place of play quite a bit.
For example, player A with the 40 footer could putt before players B, C, D even set foot on the green. Player B could then putt his 30 footer while player C lines up his own 20 foot chip shot etc...
Click to expand...

Is that any different from the pre-2019 rules aside from the mandatory flag pull when putting on the green? I've seen people do this for years (and I'm young) and, technically, furthest away (player A) hits first anyways in your example.
 
Imo the idea that leaving it in will cause too much confusion to those behind would only ever take place on blind holes so that notion is a rarity unless half the holes on ones course are blind.

Will it solve pace problem? No But will it help a little? Yes it should. Dealing with the pin can be a hassle. Its morer time consuming and problematic than people may think. Its just that we are so use to it so we don't erealize how much smoother things go when we wont have to concern ourselves with it.

No more worrying about any of it. Make your putts /chips whatever without worrying about the freaking thing, no more tending it, no one has to go grab it, worries where to place it, stepping on lines, pull it for this person but then back in for the other not on yet, etc..
and if left in...."everyone" can line up putts while others go because no one has to tend anything. That in itself makes things go quicker especially when all four are lag putting.

The only real problem is going to come from those refusing to leave it in while others will refuse to have it pulled. They really need to make this a one way street. And that street imo should be just leave the darn thing where it is. For those that refuse to leave it in your now going to have walk from your putt to grab it, careful of lines and place it and return to your ball and place it back if the others wanted it in. Don't take it personally when I say this …… but I just find the idea that it must be pulled out is a crock of $#!t. I find that is very in sync with many the other greens pace issues we have discussed where too many are much too deliberate in the way they go about their many unnecessary greens practices as they play. This pin thing imo is just another to add to that which we could eliminate if they just made the rule 100% leave it in. The problems that are going to happen due to them leaving the whole thing as a choice are just waiting in the wings. They really need to make it a 100% one way or the other only.

And I hope it ends up being a firm don't pull the pin rule. I'll bet my left arm everyone would get use to that very quickly and in no time at all it will feel like its always been that way.


There is something else no one mentioned and this happens very often almost every round I play ion at any of my county courses. There are always a few holes at least that have been deformed to some degree due to people not being careful enough when they replace the pin especially towards the end of the day. so that would be one big positive thing towards laving it be.

And besides...why wouldn't anyone want something that is proven to be (if anything at all and rare but) advantageous ?
 
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rollin said:
Imo the idea that leaving it in will cause too much confusion to those behind would only ever take place on blind holes so that notion is a rarity unless half the holes on ones course are blind.

Will it solve pace problem? No But will it help a little? Yes it should. Dealing with the pin can be a hassle. Its morer time consuming and problematic than people may think. Its just that we are so use to it so we don't erealize how much smoother things go when we wont have to concern ourselves with it.

No more worrying about any of it. Make your putts /chips whatever without worrying about the freaking thing, no more tending it, no one has to go grab it, worries where to place it, stepping on lines, pull it for this person but then back in for the other not on yet, etc..
and if left in...."everyone" can line up putts while others go because no one has to tend anything. That in itself makes things go quicker especially when all four are lag putting.

The only real problem is going to come from those refusing to leave it in while others will refuse to have it pulled. They really need to make this a one way street. And that street imo should be just leave the darn thing where it is. For those that refuse to leave it in your now going to have walk from your putt to grab it, careful of lines and place it and return to your ball and place it back if the others wanted it in. Don't take it personally when I say this …… but I just find the idea that it must be pulled out is a crock of $#!t. I find that is very in sync with many the other greens pace issues we have discussed where too many are much too deliberate in the way they go about their many unnecessary greens practices as they play. This pin thing imo is just another to add to that which we could eliminate if they just made the rule 100% leave it in. The problems that are going to happen due to them leaving the whole thing as a choice are just waiting in the wings. They really need to make it a 100% one way or the other only.

And I hope it ends up being a firm don't pull the pin rule. I'll bet my left arm everyone would get use to that very quickly and in no time at all it will feel like its always been that way.


There is something else no one mentioned and this happens very often almost every round I play ion at any of my county courses. There are always a few holes at least that have been deformed to some degree due to people not being careful enough when they replace the pin especially towards the end of the day. so that would be one big positive thing towards laving it be.

And besides...why wouldn't anyone want something that is proven to be (if anything at all and rare but) advantageous ?
Click to expand...
I don't think pulling the pin adds much time to the process. I wouldn't want it in on a breaking putt. If it's straight on fine. But, I can see the pin deflecting a ball that was going to catch the side of the hole.
 
If I am out on my own, I often don't pull the pin anyway

As for hitting up to the green when you can see there are players on the green but the pin is in is just wrong in my eyes as it is no different to hitting into a group on the fairway. If you can see players are on the green you don't hit, simple

DG_1234 said:
If players take "ready golf" to the greens it could speed up place of play quite a bit.
For example, player A with the 40 footer could putt before players B, C, D even set foot on the green. Player B could then putt his 30 footer while player C lines up his own 20 foot chip shot etc...
Click to expand...

Taking your example, what if any or all of the players B, C, D are on the line of the putt for player A, you will still have to wait for them to mark their ball, so there will be times when it isn't possible to play 'ready golf' on the green
 
Rollin, to your point about the hole getting potentially damaged by pulling the pin and putting it back in, for a lot of people the pin is going to have to be pulled to get the ball out of the cup. I don’t have the biggest hands/fingers and I can find it a little difficult at times to get the ball out with the pin in and damage can occur with doing that as well.


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radiman said:
I don't think pulling the pin adds much time to the process. I wouldn't want it in on a breaking putt. If it's straight on fine. But, I can see the pin deflecting a ball that was going to catch the side of the hole.
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But its already been proven via many thousands of rolled balls that the amount of times it helps outweigh the amount of times it would ever hurt. Even a partially leaning flag was proven to be favorable and that actually seen an increase in helping more than hurting. The only rare time it was slightly favorable to remove it was when it leaned so far over that the ball could not fit between the pin and the hole edge. Also to your point.....a hole is round and has no sides. There is no such thing as sides. And so is a pin round. It also has no sides. It makes no difference which 'side" a ball rolls in from. Now...if you want to talk of coming into a hole from an of center line like when liping out or barely falling in from an edge thats one thing, but still the ball will just do what it normally would anyway and the pin would have no effect. As for balls hitting a pin?....again, its been proven via thousands of balls that the pin itself (even a leaning one) will help more times than it will hurt. The idea that a breaking putt is somehow an exception is just not so.
 
TheDoctor said:
If I am out on my own, I often don't pull the pin anyway

As for hitting up to the green when you can see there are players on the green but the pin is in is just wrong in my eyes as it is no different to hitting into a group on the fairway. If you can see players are on the green you don't hit, simple



Taking your example, what if any or all of the players B, C, D are on the line of the putt for player A, you will still have to wait for them to mark their ball, so there will be times when it isn't possible to play 'ready golf' on the green
Click to expand...

Sure there are times when ready golf from the putting green is not feasible, but "on average" I guess it could be done on at least half the greens.
 
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