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Lastest Driver Mantra of "Speed"

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RayG

RayG

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I noticed this- ALL of the manufacturers are pushing "Ball Speed". Yet, the reviews I've seen so far (such as Rick Shiels, Peter Finch, et al) haven't shown any 'real' increase in Ball speed. Now- one reviewer (the Average Golfer) did see and feel that there was an increase in ball speed when he tested the M5 and the new Callaway.

The Pros are seeing an increase in launch angle and a reduction of spin.

Average Golfer saw an increase in ball speed (I don't recall if he posted angles and spin, though)

Yet, both are seeing an increase in distance.

I would suspect that guys with "Pro" level SS's of 110-113 or so (yes, there are pros who are faster) are already pushing face technology to the limits as it stands due to the restrictions on the faces themselves with trampoline effect, etc... So they are getting the benefits of the lower spin and launch angle increases, while "normal" SS's of "The Average Golfer" (100mph or so) would be seeing the face technology working for them more in ADDITION to the lower spin. And the pro reviewers clearly state that their Ball speed hasn't significantly increased, so the TaylorMade tag line of "Everyone gets faster" is a bit of a misnomer.

What they did do is make clubs that can increase distance for BOTH the normal and pro level golfer by having each take advantage of different technologies in the SAME driver. which I think certainly makes a good selling point- other than the RIDICULOUS prices they're charging (but that's another story).

Is it possible that the limits have been reached for face technology? Even TM with the M5 says that if they didn't use the "Screwface" technology with the foam, that all of the clubs would be illegal!
 
Yes, I won't buy a new piece of equipment unless it has a real WOW! factor.
 
Limits have not been reached for face technology and all of the OEMs know that. Also, look outside the golf forum world, there aren't going to be as many people that bought drivers last year that are going to upgrade to an entirely new driver this year. Year-over-year increases are pretty small nowadays. But you get the guy that has a 3-4 year old driver, and with a fit into a current driver, that guy could pick up 10-15 yards easily.
 
I will say that if after the TaylorMade fitting experience next month, it shows 10-15 yards increase with the M5- I will trade in my 2017 M3 on the spot.

But as I said, TM has said all of their M5/M6 faces would be over the limits if not for the foam/screws technology to get them *just* under those limits. How much of that is hyperbole and marketing and how much can be truth?


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IMO it is better ball speed acroos the face. Pros hit the screws every time so it doesn’t matter to them all that much.
 
RayG said:
I will say that if after the TaylorMade fitting experience next month, it shows 10-15 yards increase with the M5- I will trade in my 2017 M3 on the spot.

But as I said, TM has said all of their M5/M6 faces would be over the limits if not for the foam/screws technology to get them *just* under those limits. How much of that is hyperbole and marketing and how much can be truth?


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I thought the M3 was a 2018 release.
 
Architex said:
IMO it is better ball speed acroos the face. Pros hit the screws every time so it doesn’t matter to them all that much.
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With the positioning of the screws wouldn't it be detrimental to hit them?
 
RayG said:
I will say that if after the TaylorMade fitting experience next month, it shows 10-15 yards increase with the M5- I will trade in my 2017 M3 on the spot.

But as I said, TM has said all of their M5/M6 faces would be over the limits if not for the foam/screws technology to get them *just* under those limits. How much of that is hyperbole and marketing and how much can be truth?


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I do think manufacturing and tolerances do play a part in the story. If there's a wide variance, they need to make heads that aim to be below the max so that they won't sell drivers that are above. If there's tight tolerances, you might have a "hotter" face on average.
 
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RayG said:
I will say that if after the TaylorMade fitting experience next month, it shows 10-15 yards increase with the M5- I will trade in my 2017 M3 on the spot.

But as I said, TM has said all of their M5/M6 faces would be over the limits if not for the foam/screws technology to get them *just* under those limits. How much of that is hyperbole and marketing and how much can be truth?


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if you want to go conspiracy, the USGA (supposedly) isn't just testing the middle of the face now... make the face slower in certain areas to pass the CT testing
 
Architex said:
IMO it is better ball speed acroos the face. Pros hit the screws every time so it doesn’t matter to them all that much.
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This, average ball speed would be up for me because I hit it all over the face. I might not pick up any speed on a center hit v another center hit, but if I pick up speed on a toe hit v another toe hit and I hit the toe 3 times out of ten I will pick up average ball speed. Rick Shiels has really tight dispersion so it's not surprising to see those result from him, his reviews should be considered applicable to my very best shots.
 
TM should be releasing an m5 or 6 without the injection to show that it’s that fast it needed to be slowed down. If they done this it would give their claims more credibility


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DataDude said:
This, average ball speed would be up for me because I hit it all over the face. I might not pick up any speed on a center hit v another center hit, but if I pick up speed on a toe hit v another toe hit and I hit the toe 3 times out of ten I will pick up average ball speed. Rick Shiels has really tight dispersion so it's not surprising to see those result from him, his reviews should be considered applicable to my very best shots.
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This is my thought as well. I think distance increase on center strikes is still possible but will be pretty minimal. Where I really need help is those off center strikes which is where I believe there is the most potential for improvements.

Look at what Callaway has done with using A.I. Whether you love or hate Callaway you have to believe using a supercomputer to design clubs in the future, regardless of the brand, is going to open up new possibilities.
 
DataDude said:
This, average ball speed would be up for me because I hit it all over the face. I might not pick up any speed on a center hit v another center hit, but if I pick up speed on a toe hit v another toe hit and I hit the toe 3 times out of ten I will pick up average ball speed. Rick Shiels has really tight dispersion so it's not surprising to see those result from him, his reviews should be considered applicable to my very best shots.
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Watching Rick's review of the F9 this morning, he actually picked up ball speed with the F9 from clubhead speed. 2MPH extra from F8 same day same shaft. He also hit it as far as the Flash and M5 with some extra spin so it should be more forgiving than those 2 for him with similar distances. Interesting indeed.
 
DataDude said:
Watching Rick's review of the F9 this morning, he actually picked up ball speed with the F9 from clubhead speed. 2MPH extra from F8 same day same shaft. He also hit it as far as the Flash and M5 with some extra spin so it should be more forgiving than those 2 for him with similar distances. Interesting indeed.
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That would actually depend on the miss. More spin can be more forgiving, it can also be less forgiving. Obviously a bit of a generality, but for years low spin meant not forgiving, however that trend ended when companies could manipulate weight through use of composites and other items.
 
JB said:
That would actually depend on the miss. More spin can be more forgiving, it can also be less forgiving. Obviously a bit of a generality, but for years low spin meant not forgiving, however that trend ended when companies could manipulate weight through use of composites and other items.
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Yeah I should clarify on toe and heel hits to get back online. Generally also though lowest spin will go farther and going farther equals more off the target line verses the exact same swing that didn't go quite as far. I am generally noticing some of the better players reviewing clubs online are starting to think about the the other features of a driver other than the raw distance. They still like the distance, but they aren't as wowed by it anymore since the manufacturers all make a club that goes far, now they seem to really be more tuned into things like looks, sound, how does this fit my miss, etc. I think price is going to be a focus this year too. If you walk into a store and hit an F9 for $450 and it performs nearly identically to a $550 M5 or $530 Epic Flash then most folks are going to go F9. If a $300 Tour Edge EXS is nearly identical and can carve out a space in the market than there is certainly going to be some changes forthcoming.
 
Sean said:
Yes, I won't buy a new piece of equipment.
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FIFY Mr Sean, lol.

I fairness to you, you haven't hit my Circle T (you'd hate it, way too short for you:))

So I'll keep it. Lol.
 
DataDude said:
Yeah I should clarify on toe and heel hits to get back online. Generally also though lowest spin will go farther and going farther equals more off the target line verses the exact same swing that didn't go quite as far. I am generally noticing some of the better players reviewing clubs online are starting to think about the the other features of a driver other than the raw distance. They still like the distance, but they aren't as wowed by it anymore since the manufacturers all make a club that goes far, now they seem to really be more tuned into things like looks, sound, how does this fit my miss, etc. I think price is going to be a focus this year too. If you walk into a store and hit an F9 for $450 and it performs nearly identically to a $550 M5 or $530 Epic Flash then most folks are going to go F9. If a $300 Tour Edge EXS is nearly identical and can carve out a space in the market than there is certainly going to be some changes forthcoming.
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This also would depend on the golfer though. Lower spin does not equal going farther. Some players need more spin actually. Combine that with spin being a single axis and spin could be both bad and good depending on the player and the strike.
 
JB said:
This also would depend on the golfer though. Lower spin does not equal going farther. Some players need more spin actually. Combine that with spin being a single axis and spin could be both bad and good depending on the player and the strike.
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Whatever driver lowers my spin increases my distance. It's pretty simple for me. Triton was a good example of this, coupled with the shaft in it. I saw distance increased because this head and the shaft in it combined to reduce my spin 300-400 RPM's.

Unfortunately I sold it without giving it much of a chance. I only hit it indoors last winter and it sounded like a metal cat being thrown in a blender.

I have mega regrets now, especially since I can now easily find the Triton but the shaft I got in it has been ate up by golfers that probably have the same issues I have.

I don't want the Rogue Black, Dangit. I wanna find the Triton with a Rogue Silver 125 MSI in Tx. Preferably for the $100 I paid for it all the first time, lol.

Funny thing is I didn't like that shaft in anything else (and I should have hit it outside, that lesson is now learned the hard way).
 
SmiterOfPv1x said:
Whatever driver lowers my spin increases my distance. It's pretty simple for me. Triton was a good example of this, coupled with the shaft in it. I saw distance increased because this head and the shaft in it combined to reduce my spin 300-400 RPM's.

Unfortunately I sold it without giving it much of a chance. I only hit it indoors last winter and it sounded like a metal cat being thrown in a blender.

I have mega regrets now, especially since I can now easily find the Triton but the shaft I got in it has been ate up by golfers that probably have the same issues I have.

I don't want the Rogue Black, Dangit. I wanna find the Triton with a Rogue Silver 125 MSI in Tx. Preferably for the $100 I paid for it all the first time, lol.

Funny thing is I didn't like that shaft in anything else (and I should have hit it outside, that lesson is now learned the hard way).
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I think that is true for a big segment, I just wanted to point out that it was not the only segment.
With that said, as lofts go up, it can become as important as speed for distance (see fairway woods).
 
SmiterOfPv1x said:
Whatever driver lowers my spin increases my distance. It's pretty simple for me. Triton was a good example of this, coupled with the shaft in it. I saw distance increased because this head and the shaft in it combined to reduce my spin 300-400 RPM's.

Unfortunately I sold it without giving it much of a chance. I only hit it indoors last winter and it sounded like a metal cat being thrown in a blender.

I have mega regrets now, especially since I can now easily find the Triton but the shaft I got in it has been ate up by golfers that probably have the same issues I have.

I don't want the Rogue Black, Dangit. I wanna find the Triton with a Rogue Silver 125 MSI in Tx. Preferably for the $100 I paid for it all the first time, lol.

Funny thing is I didn't like that shaft in anything else (and I should have hit it outside, that lesson is now learned the hard way).
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I still have that shaft and its sitting in my closet "too stiff". I have considered selling it but it does not feel right because you gave it to me. I will send it back to you if you would like. If you find a Triton with a less stout shaft I would trade you for it but I will give you your old shaft back regardless. I have the Rogue Black in my Triton now.
 
The limit on CT has been a constant for awhile, but OEMs can still push the limits on manufacturing tolerances, aerodynamics, or other things that can help increase either swing speed and/ball speed. Shafts play a big role as well, and my eyes were opened at ShaftUp just how far the shaft has come in the last 20 years with the technologies and lighter/stronger materials.

Honestly, most years I see a slight increase in distance and dispersion, not necessarily enough to make a purchase each year, but after 3-4 I can justify it.

In my own experience

Epic SZ>>GBB>>>>> Cobra ZL>>Cobra SZ>>>Cleveland Quad Pro

The tech difference from my 2001 Cleveland Quad Pro to the Epic SZ is mind-blowing
 
arydolphin said:
Limits have not been reached for face technology and all of the OEMs know that. Also, look outside the golf forum world, there aren't going to be as many people that bought drivers last year that are going to upgrade to an entirely new driver this year. Year-over-year increases are pretty small nowadays. But you get the guy that has a 3-4 year old driver, and with a fit into a current driver, that guy could pick up 10-15 yards easily.
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I wondered why Callaway brought back the Epic name so prominently after using Rogue last year and then I realized Callaway knows the guy with the Rogue isn't likely to upgrade, they want the the person with the Epic GBB to upgrade.
 
fupresti said:
I wondered why Callaway brought back the Epic name so prominently after using Rogue last year and then I realized Callaway knows the guy with the Rogue isn't likely to upgrade, they want the the person with the Epic GBB to upgrade.
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Target on my back... how dare they

Also, makes perfect sense
 
The one thing not mentioned as well is bringing the mass properties as a discussion point. I'm very curious about the gen2 pxg drivers if they are truthful about the mass properties. It is also the one thing I could see more of the brands get into of pushing cg lower and lower to make a forgiving lower spin driver. The cobra king Ltd was the first driver to really do that and while not fitting everyone was very successful for the ones it did fit.

I also think we'll continue to hear more about manufacturing techniques since that is something that can always be improved. With this maybe variations on face stories or bulge and roll stories since I find it interesting how much of the bulge and roll design survives manufacturing tolerances.

The last thing will be aerodynamics, since there is nothing prohibitating the manufacturers from trying to make the club easier to swing faster.
 
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