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Help with a rule question? Hitting into an unmarked ravine? OB, hazard, lost ball??

BluesManDan

BluesManDan

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So... hole 7 at my local course features a slightly uphill drive over a 200+yard ravine to a narrow fairway surrounded by woods to the right and the left. And by "woods" I mean woods on a severe slope with absolutely no chance of you ever hitting a ball that should find its way into them. A good drive will leave you a blind shot to the green from the left, or almost blocked out by a giant hill and tree on the right. I have to hit at least 3 wood to carry the ravine, and because of the danger of a severely blind shot or total blockage, I always just take driver, so that a well hit shot isn't completely blind into the green. I'm pretty accurate with my driver, so it usually works out okay. But not always.

Yesterday I hooked into the woods. Retee with a penalty. Hook another one into the woods. I'm not whacking another $3 ball into the woods, so I just take another penalty and drop one at the bottom of the ravine (it's grassy now, though it was all chest high briars and weeds last year) and hit a 7 iron up onto the fairway above to then hit a semiblind PW into the green and take an 8 on a par 4. Fun.

What's really the right play? I played the first one as if it were OB or a lost ball, even though I could see it. The second one I played as if it were into a hazard. I could see both balls but could get to neither of them.

Now... the woods/ravine on the left are NOT playable in the least. You can sometimes see your ball, but you ain't gonna hit it without some rappelling equipment, a machete for the briars, and a mountain goat for a caddie. (You think I'm joking...)
But NEITHER are they MARKED by white stakes or red stakes (as I would contend they SHOULD be).
And the hole does NOT have a designated drop zone anywhere.

What's the right play according to the rules, when I hit a ball into those woods?
 
Well the right play is stroke and distance. But if you're going to drop about where the ball would be, don't just drop and add a shot. Drop and add TWO shots (since you should have hit from where your last shot was with a penalty shot anyway). That's not the correct way to do it, but if there's nothing on the line, or if everyone is agreeable to it, it's no big deal in the grand scheme of things.
 
Check the score card. Often, areas like that are indicated as hazards on the card even though they aren't marked as such. If there's nothing on the card, and you're sure you can identify your ball, you could perhaps play the "unplayable" rule. If not, I believe it would be the "lost ball" rule.
 
Smallville said:
Well the right play is stroke and distance. But if you're going to drop about where the ball would be, don't just drop and add a shot. Drop and add TWO shots (since you should have hit from where your last shot was with a penalty shot anyway). That's not the correct way to do it, but if there's nothing on the line, or if everyone is agreeable to it, it's no big deal in the grand scheme of things.
Click to expand...


So what is the correct way to do it?
 
v.man said:
Check the score card. Often, areas like that are indicated as hazards on the card even though they aren't marked as such. If there's nothing on the card, and you're sure you can identify your ball, you could perhaps play the "unplayable" rule. If not, I believe it would be the "lost ball" rule.
Click to expand...

Nope, thought of that already; it is not indicated on the scorecard either. If it were my course, I would mark it as a lateral hazard. And on any other course, a wooded ravine like this would be marked as a lateral hazard, though possibly OB, but it would be marked something. But it is not marked, not that I have found.
 
I did the unthinkable: I called the course and asked the staff what to do.

Take a penalty. Retee. Repeat. Play it like a lost ball or OB.
 
BluesManDan said:
So... hole 7 at my local course features a slightly uphill drive over a 200+yard ravine to a narrow fairway surrounded by woods to the right and the left. And by "woods" I mean woods on a severe slope with absolutely no chance of you ever hitting a ball that should find its way into them. A good drive will leave you a blind shot to the green from the left, or almost blocked out by a giant hill and tree on the right. I have to hit at least 3 wood to carry the ravine, and because of the danger of a severely blind shot or total blockage, I always just take driver, so that a well hit shot isn't completely blind into the green. I'm pretty accurate with my driver, so it usually works out okay. But not always.

Yesterday I hooked into the woods. Retee with a penalty. Hook another one into the woods. I'm not whacking another $3 ball into the woods, so I just take another penalty and drop one at the bottom of the ravine (it's grassy now, though it was all chest high briars and weeds last year) and hit a 7 iron up onto the fairway above to then hit a semiblind PW into the green and take an 8 on a par 4. Fun.

What's really the right play? I played the first one as if it were OB or a lost ball, even though I could see it. The second one I played as if it were into a hazard. I could see both balls but could get to neither of them.

Now... the woods/ravine on the left are NOT playable in the least. You can sometimes see your ball, but you ain't gonna hit it without some rappelling equipment, a machete for the briars, and a mountain goat for a caddie. (You think I'm joking...)
But NEITHER are they MARKED by white stakes or red stakes (as I would contend they SHOULD be).
And the hole does NOT have a designated drop zone anywhere.

What's the right play according to the rules, when I hit a ball into those woods?
Click to expand...

If you declare your ball lost, you must proceed under Stroke and Distance. If you think your ball might be lost you can hit a provisional ball. The key word is might. I always use that word because it can save you grief. Even if you think your ball is out of bounds there is always a possibility that it might have deflected off a rock or something and bounced back in bounds. So enter the provisional ball.

Your correct play is to hit a provisional after your first shot. You must state, "I'm hitting a provisional ball." You'll never find the first ball anyway, that way if you hit your provisional into it, it doesn't count, and you get to hit a second provisional. You can hit provisional balls all day long until you get one that you can find. Just don't go looking for the ball until you put one in play that you can find. On this hole I would suggest playing shag balls. For pace of play reasons, I'd give a cursory look on my way to the provisional, especially if the area was waist or even knee high in briars, or wild blackberries like out here. Nope, not going in there.

Rules Nazi and Tournament Version: Dropping at the bottom of the ravine is playing from the wrong place under 20-7c which is a 2 stroke penalty in stroke play or automatic loss of hole in match play. In stroke play - If your competitor becomes aware of this and feels that you have committed a serious breach, you must correct this by playing a second ball under the rules (i.e. going back to the tee under S&D) and completing the hole before you make a stroke at the next tee, or leaving the putting green if that is the final hole. If you do this the second ball counts and you add another 2 stroke penalty. If you fail to correct the situation, you are disqualified.

Thus in your situation should that have occurred you would have had (assuming you made it over on the final ball) ... a 10 on the hole if you made it in 4 strokes with your final ball. 1 + 2 (S&D reload) + 2 (S&D) + 1 (PW) + 1 (putt) + 1 (putt) + 2 (penalty) = 10.

Note that the provisional ball is perfectly acceptable under the Rules of Golf.

During a Casual Round: If you've already hit two shots into that thing, why not just take a two stroke penalty and drop on the other side of it? You're basically "cheating" anyway. You just might feel better about it by dropping a ball at the bottom of the ravine.

The Unplayable Lie Rule: Now if look hard for your ball and find it, you can declare an unplayable lie, and have options. You can drop two club lengths no nearer the hole, OR go back as far as you want, keeping the spot where your ball was in line between you and the flag until you find a spot from where you can play the ball.

This area sounds like landing in the "heather" on a links course in Scotland. You don't want to land in the heather. Heather = bad. Out here on the west coast landing in the 18" tall fescue = bad. Also chances of finding your ball is not very good either.
 
BluesManDan said:
I did the unthinkable: I called the course and asked the staff what to do.

Take a penalty. Retee. Repeat. Play it like a lost ball or OB.
Click to expand...

Re-tee and hit until you get there. It is the only thing you can do.
 
BluesManDan said:
So what is the correct way to do it?
Click to expand...

BluesManDan said:
I did the unthinkable: I called the course and asked the staff what to do.

Take a penalty. Retee. Repeat. Play it like a lost ball or OB.
Click to expand...
If that's the case, if you know for sure it's in there, keep re-teeing and hit 3, then 5 then 7 off the tee until you aren't sure if it's in there. Or you can hit a provisional, but when you can't find your provisional you'll have to go back and re-tee yet again. You can keep calling them provisional, as long as you know which ball is which and can identify which shot you are on if you find a provisional. Or that's at least what I think. I am definitely not a rules guy!

InTheRough said:
If you declare your ball lost, you must proceed under Stroke and Distance. If you think your ball might be lost you can hit a provisional ball. The key word is might. I always use that word because it can save you grief. Even if you think your ball is out of bounds there is always a possibility that it might have deflected off a rock or something and bounced back in bounds. So enter the provisional ball.

Your correct play is to hit a provisional after your first shot. You must state, "I'm hitting a provisional ball." You'll never find the first ball anyway, that way if you hit your provisional into it, it doesn't count, and you get to hit a second provisional. You can hit provisional balls all day long until you get one that you can find. Just don't go looking for the ball until you put one in play that you can find. On this hole I would suggest playing shag balls. For pace of play reasons, I'd give a cursory look on my way to the provisional, especially if the area was waist or even knee high in briars, or wild blackberries like out here. Nope, not going in there.
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That's not right. You can't hit 15 provisionals until you get one in bounds and say that's your third shot. Each one that you can't find (up until the one that actually stays in bounds) counts as a shot and penalty shot.
 
Well that cleared up that mess. IOW, hit the 4 iron for the provisional.
 
Imo what you have is an unplayable lie. You see your ball, its not lost, it is not inside any staked area, you just understand there is no way to get to it and/or play it from there (via this very steep and unplayable wooded area). So with that its imo unplayable. You cant take the 2 club drop option. And probably cant take the - drop a ball behind keeping that spot between your new ball and the pin. So the only option is to re-tee. hit it there again and well.....you may as well pick up and score your max allowable strokes based on handicap since you just hit 3rd shot to the same place and would then be playing 5 from the tee. Just take your 7 (if that's what max your HC is at) and move on.

As for provisional, it must be declared a provisional or not prior to hitting. If not then its your 3rd shot regardless where your first ball is even if you find it. If its a provisional then you must play your first shot if its found. Hwoever in this specific case your first shot is unplayable which would (as in my first paragraph and in this case) result in no real other option other than hitting from tee again anyway. So the provisional , if in play is your ball to play hitting 4. The only thing here that seems unsure is that you did find your first ball and is unplayable. I have to assume the provisional ball is then playable even though you found the first but only in this specific case. Normally you would have to play your first ball if found.
 
This scenario can be complicated, but it's really pretty simple. 'If' the woods were marked as a lateral hazard it would be less penalizing, and probably wouldn't even be a question here.

1st Tee ball - Possibly Lost, OB, unplayable = 1st Stroke

2nd Tee ball (Declared Provisional):
a. 1st ball found playable = Play 2nd Stroke
b. 1st ball Lost or OB, 2nd Tee ball found playable = Hitting 4th Stroke
c. 1st ball found unplayable, 2nd Tee ball found playable = Hitting 4th Stroke
d. 1st ball & 2nd ball Lost, OB, unplayable...

3rd Tee ball (Declared Provisional):
a. 1st and 2nd Tee ball Lost, OB, unplayable and 3rd tee ball found playable = Hitting 6th Stroke
a. 2nd Tee ball found playable = Hitting 4th Stroke (3rd Tee ball (provisional)) was never in play and doesn't count.

Sure you can hit as many provisional tee shots as you may need to have a ball in play, but you need to declare each, including the ball hit for each. Totaling your score is based on the number of provisional balls you had to hit to get one in play; all attempts to get into play count up to, and including with penalties, the playable provisional.
 
JimBetts said:
This scenario can be complicated, but it's really pretty simple. 'If' the woods were marked as a lateral hazard it would be less penalizing, and probably wouldn't even be a question here.

1st Tee ball - Possibly Lost, OB, unplayable = 1st Stroke

2nd Tee ball (Declared Provisional):
a. 1st ball found playable = Play 2nd Stroke
b. 1st ball Lost or OB, 2nd Tee ball found playable = Hitting 4th Stroke
c. 1st ball found unplayable, 2nd Tee ball found playable = Hitting 4th Stroke
d. 1st ball & 2nd ball Lost, OB, unplayable...

3rd Tee ball (Declared Provisional):
a. 1st and 2nd Tee ball Lost, OB, unplayable and 3rd tee ball found playable = Hitting 6th Stroke
a. 2nd Tee ball found playable = Hitting 4th Stroke (3rd Tee ball (provisional)) was never in play and doesn't count.
Click to expand...

You forgot:
a. Bury driver in a shallow grave in ravine. It was obviously defective.

:alien2:
 
JohnSinVA said:
You forgot:
a. Bury driver in a shallow grave in ravine. It was obviously defective.

:alien2:
Click to expand...

Correct there.

We've all been there. I re-tee, pull it into the woods on the other side then throw up my hands and start drinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I am pretty sure if you find the ball you can take unplayable lie. Since it is not marked as a hazzard you do have to find the ball to take the unplayable lie though. If not then you must do stroke and distance
 
sposey013168 said:
I am pretty sure if you find the ball you can take unplayable lie. Since it is not marked as a hazzard you do have to find the ball to take the unplayable lie though. If not then you must do stroke and distance
Click to expand...

That is true but then you have to play it within 2 club lengths of the ball not closer to the pin or on a line directly behind the ball in line with the pin. If those aren't an option then it's a Re tee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
HoosierGolfer said:
Re-tee and hit until you get there. It is the only thing you can do.
Click to expand...
Well, not really. You can mark the hole as an X and let the hole handicaps take it from there.
 
JimBetts said:
This scenario can be complicated,2nd Tee ball (Declared Provisional):

...c. 1st ball found unplayable, 2nd Tee ball found playable = Hitting 4th Stroke
Click to expand...

Indeed it is complicated, but the above is incorrect. A provisional can only be used for a ball that is lost or out of bounds. If you find the first that you thought was lost outside the hazard, the provisional ball is abandoned. If he declared it unplayable at that point, he'd have to assess his options, including playing from the tee again, from there.
 
rollin said:
Imo what you have is an unplayable lie. You see your ball, its not lost, it is not inside any staked area, you just understand there is no way to get to it and/or play it from there (via this very steep and unplayable wooded area). So with that its imo unplayable. You cant take the 2 club drop option. And probably cant take the - drop a ball behind keeping that spot between your new ball and the pin. So the only option is to re-tee. hit it there again and well.....you may as well pick up and score your max allowable strokes based on handicap since you just hit 3rd shot to the same place and would then be playing 5 from the tee. Just take your 7 (if that's what max your HC is at) and move on.

As for provisional, it must be declared a provisional or not prior to hitting. If not then its your 3rd shot regardless where your first ball is even if you find it. If its a provisional then you must play your first shot if its found. Hwoever in this specific case your first shot is unplayable which would (as in my first paragraph and in this case) result in no real other option other than hitting from tee again anyway. So the provisional , if in play is your ball to play hitting 4. The only thing here that seems unsure is that you did find your first ball and is unplayable. I have to assume the provisional ball is then playable even though you found the first but only in this specific case. Normally you would have to play your first ball if found.
Click to expand...

I just sent the OP's question to the USGA. SHould be a few days to get a response.

But I am thinking, just because you can see a ball, how can you be sure it's yours if you have no way to get to it? You can't for certain identify it as yours if all you can see is a ball. If you can see your identifying mark on it maybe, but with the OP's description, I don't think the ball is just a few feet away with a bunch of crap in between that you don't want to walk through, it sounds like its well into the woods with a bunch of crap you don't want to walk through.

So wouldn't it be lost? Which means stroke and distance, and not able to take an unplayable since it wasn't identified?

As far as taking your ESC here, that's fine for your handicap, but what if there's something on the line here? You might only write down an ESC for handicap purposes but you should still play the hole and take your lumps. If it's match play, you can concede the hole and head to the next one. But if it's stroke play, this hole could keep you from winning if you can't put a ball in play for a while.

If it's just a round between friends or by yourself, just drop a ball down there and take a two shot penalty. Not the correct way, but you gotta consider pace of play too! You could be there a while hitting ball after ball!

Again, I am just throwing out an idea here.
 
Smallville said:
I just sent the OP's question to the USGA. SHould be a few days to get a response.

But I am thinking, just because you can see a ball, how can you be sure it's yours if you have no way to get to it? You can't for certain identify it as yours if all you can see is a ball. If you can see your identifying mark on it maybe, but with the OP's description, I don't think the ball is just a few feet away with a bunch of crap in between that you don't want to walk through, it sounds like its well into the woods with a bunch of crap you don't want to walk through.

So wouldn't it be lost? Which means stroke and distance, and not able to take an unplayable since it wasn't identified?

As far as taking your ESC here, that's fine for your handicap, but what if there's something on the line here? You might only write down an ESC for handicap purposes but you should still play the hole and take your lumps. If it's match play, you can concede the hole and head to the next one. But if it's stroke play, this hole could keep you from winning if you can't put a ball in play for a while.

If it's just a round between friends or by yourself, just drop a ball down there and take a two shot penalty. Not the correct way, but you gotta consider pace of play too! You could be there a while hitting ball after ball!

Again, I am just throwing out an idea here.
Click to expand...

good point. If you cant get to it, then you can never technically be certain it was yours. But anyway the only unplayable option (for this specific case) where the ball is down a steep hill deep in the woods is to re-tee. He couldn't drop 2 clubs because that's a useless option in this case. And there wood be no way to keep that landed spot between you and the hole for the next shot either. So in this specific case the only play option is going to be that of a lost ball regardless.

But now you have me thinking of something else here. If its a "stroke" play competition what does one do if they keep getting in trouble here and send 3 balls that way? You are suppose to finish the hole and an esc score is not what gets posted for the sake of competition. Not being match play this would present a real problem for all. I suppose once I hit 2 in a row in the mess he describes it would be in best interest to then just play a mid iron or something and simply chug your way to the hole that way and at least get there in a respectable time frame. I mean ya cant just keep hitting balls into that situation all day long.
 
rollin said:
Imo what you have is an unplayable lie. You see your ball, its not lost, it is not inside any staked area, you just understand there is no way to get to it and/or play it from there (via this very steep and unplayable wooded area). So with that its imo unplayable. You cant take the 2 club drop option. And probably cant take the - drop a ball behind keeping that spot between your new ball and the pin. So the only option is to re-tee. hit it there again and well.....you may as well pick up and score your max allowable strokes based on handicap since you just hit 3rd shot to the same place and would then be playing 5 from the tee. Just take your 7 (if that's what max your HC is at) and move on.

As for provisional, it must be declared a provisional or not prior to hitting. If not then its your 3rd shot regardless where your first ball is even if you find it. If its a provisional then you must play your first shot if its found. Hwoever in this specific case your first shot is unplayable which would (as in my first paragraph and in this case) result in no real other option other than hitting from tee again anyway. So the provisional , if in play is your ball to play hitting 4. The only thing here that seems unsure is that you did find your first ball and is unplayable. I have to assume the provisional ball is then playable even though you found the first but only in this specific case. Normally you would have to play your first ball if found.
Click to expand...

You must find and identify your ball to declare it unplayable. Just seeing a ball that you think might be yours but can't get close enough to identify isn't good enough - in that case it is not unplayable, it's lost.

The OP got the correct ruling from the person he called at the course. If the ball is lost in such an area that is not marked in any way, then it is lost and Rule 27-1a is his only recourse. In a competition, he would have to keep playing from the tee until he put a ball in play, or he withdrew from the tournament.
 
Fourputt said:
You must find and identify your ball to declare it unplayable. Just seeing a ball that you think might be yours but can't get close enough to identify isn't good enough - in that case it is not unplayable, it's lost.

The OP got the correct ruling from the person he called at the course. If the ball is lost in such an area that is not marked in any way, then it is lost and Rule 27-1a is his only recourse. In a competition, he would have to keep playing from the tee until he put a ball in play, or he withdrew from the tournament.
Click to expand...

Yes "smallviille" pointed that out to me. I was assuming he knew the ball was his but there wouldn't really be a away to determine that for sure. I understand.
 
And this is why I hate forced carries over areas like that, and why I have a 4 iron in my bag for a driving iron. Best investment I ever made. Lost ball? Provisional = 4 iron shot.
 
BluesManDan said:
I did the unthinkable: I called the course and asked the staff what to do.

Take a penalty. Retee. Repeat. Play it like a lost ball or OB.
Click to expand...

That's about right. But your club should mark it with white stakes. In some clubs where there are extreme and dangerous ravines, they always mark it with white lines or stakes, because some oaf, with or without alcohol, will try to climb down and things could get ugly from there.

I could be one of those oafs.
 
That's what I tend to think, however, I found this on the USGA website...

[h=2]28/1[/h] [h=4]When Necessary to Find and Identify Ball Deemed Unplayable[/h]Q.A player hits his tee shot into a deep canyon. The player immediately deems the ball unplayable and plays another ball from the tee under the stroke-and-distance option of Rule 28. May a player deem unplayable a ball which has not been found?

A.Yes. A player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option (Rule 28a) without finding his ball.

However, since Rules 28b and 28c require reference to where the ball lay, the player must find and identify his ball in order to proceed under either of these options.


[h=2]28/2[/h] [h=4]Player Deems First Ball from Tee Unplayable, Abandons Provisional Ball and Claims He Is Lying Three with Third Ball[/h]Q.A player hit his tee shot deep into the woods on the right. The player then hit a provisional ball into the same woods. The player did not search for either ball.

The player deemed his first ball unplayable, said he was abandoning his provisional ball and hit a third ball from the tee. The player maintained that his third ball was in play and that he was lying 3. He based his argument on Rule 28, which states that the player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable, and on Decision 28/1, which says in effect that a player may proceed under the stroke-and-distance option of the unplayable ball Rule without finding his ball. The Committee ruled that the player's stroke with the third ball was his fifth stroke, but the wording of Decision 28/1 leaves a little doubt. Did the Committee rule correctly?

A.Yes. The player may not deem the first ball from the tee unplayable, disregard the provisional ball and put another ball into play under a stroke-and-distance penalty because, having played the provisional ball, he must find the original ball before he can deem it unplayable. Unless the original ball was found, the provisional ball would automatically become the ball in play.

Meaning... there is no rule to help in the situation. Hit into a "canyon" or "deep woods" - then you retee it, and take a stroke penalty, and keep doing so until you hit one in play.
 
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