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Lost ball out of bounds rule

DG_1234 said:
Tournaments should have a statement about Rules, including reference to the USGA Rules of Golf as well as any "local Rules" to be observed during tournament play.
For establishing and, or, maintaining a handicap I think most regional golf associations allow/expect observance of both USGA Rules as well as local course Rules.
For non tournament play and, or, players choosing not to post scores for handicap purposes, I guess it is up to the customer (player) to decide the Rules he/she wants to observe.
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Out of everyone that I golf with, which on a regular basis is about 10 people, my 13 year old and myself are the only two that maintain a HC or even care about the rules. At all. We've taken more self called panalties than the other 8 or so combined. Yet.... the one time I actually used a rule to benefit me, you'd have thought I just massacred an entire species of puppies, lol. Such was the crap I took from the rest of the group. Cheater! They cried out, while fluffing every single lie in the 84 rounds I've played with them, lol.

Im far from a rules expert but I play to them as best I can and when I run into something I don't know, I research it post round. Fool me once, etc.
 
DonJuan said:
Aaaaaand I'm more confused than when I opened this thread.
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Simple answer: Do not hit your ball out of bounds!!! :laughing:
 
DG_1234 said:
Tournaments should have a statement about Rules, including reference to the USGA Rules of Golf as well as any "local Rules" to be observed during tournament play.
For establishing and, or, maintaining a handicap I think most regional golf associations allow/expect observance of both USGA Rules as well as local course Rules.
For non tournament play and, or, players choosing not to post scores for handicap purposes, I guess it is up to the customer (player) to decide the Rules he/she wants to observe.
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Non tournament play or not posting scores, you can just play golf without following any rules in reality. And I know tournaments should post what rules are being followed for their course of play.

I understand that you play by USGA rules as they are the blanket standard to the rules. But if the course has a local rule that governs the play of golf at that particular course, it seems arbitrary to not follow that course's set rules, no?
 
SmiterOfPv1x said:
And now I'm back to figuring, lol.QUOTE]

I'm figuring too. But to me it just seems like you would follow the local rule if the course adopted it, and the USGA rule if not. Not be given the option of one or the other if the course adopted the local rule for out of bounds.
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slimjim32 said:
This was my first thought as well, but if the course adopted the local rule to play the out of bounds as a drop, wouldn't you have to play by the course's local rule?
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The local rule just provides an alternative to stroke-and-distance, which will always remain an option.
 
JMB3 said:
The local rule just provides an alternative to stroke-and-distance, which will always remain an option.
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So then in non tournament play, if you make a decision following the USGA's rules of golf regardless of the local rule being different, you are ok?
 
slimjim32 said:
Non tournament play or not posting scores, you can just play golf without following any rules in reality. And I know tournaments should post what rules are being followed for their course of play.

I understand that you play by USGA rules as they are the blanket standard to the rules. But if the course has a local rule that governs the play of golf at that particular course, it seems arbitrary to not follow that course's set rules, no?
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Is there a particular Rule you have in mind ?
Consider that USGA Rules of Golf may always be followed, regardless of a course's local Rules.
For example, if a player strikes a shot straight sideways he may prefer to play (for several possible reasons including time, distance, line of play for next shot etc...)again form his original lie rather than use the new local Rule option for out of bounds and, or, lost ball play.
Some local Rules probably must be observed (such as endangered species protection areas), because if the customer (player) violates them he/she may be kicked off the property. Is this the type of local Rule you are thinking about ?
 
Yes, the Local Rule is just an option (if adopted, that is).
 
DG_1234 said:
Is there a particular Rule you have in mind ?
Consider that USGA Rules of Golf may always be followed, regardless of a course's local Rules.
For example, if a player strikes a shot straight sideways he may prefer to play (for several possible reasons including time, distance, line of play for next shot etc...)again form his original lie rather than use the new local Rule option for out of bounds and, or, lost ball play.
Some local Rules probably must be observed (such as endangered species protection areas), because if the customer (player) violates them he/she may be kicked off the property. Is this the type of local Rule you are thinking about ?
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The rule I had in mind was the OB one we have been talking about. But it makes sense that the USGA's rules would supersede that of a local rule, and be a viable option no matter what.

JMB3 said:
Yes, the Local Rule is just an option (if adopted, that is).
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Well, minus DG_1234's local rule about protected areas. That seems like a good one to follow no matter what.
 
slimjim32 said:
The rule I had in mind was the OB one we have been talking about. But it makes sense that the USGA's rules would supersede that of a local rule, and be a viable option no matter what.



Well, minus DG_1234's local rule about protected areas. That seems like a good one to follow no matter what.
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Especially if that endangered species is a venomous snake. I'm not even chasing a brand new ProV into that, lol. Saw a guy at the store the other day with a REAL King Cobra around his neck. It was a therapy pet. From a distance (about 6i worth of carry), I chatted with him. He said he has PTSD and the therapy part of the pet was twofold. He likes it so it calms him down. He also said he got antsy anytime people got close. No one gets close to the guy. He assured me he has all the permits for it. I wasn't getting close enough to check them so I took his word for it. He did say it (by law) had its venom removed. I'm not much of one for laws, but I kind of like that one. Again, I wasn't getting close enough to inspect. As far as I'm concerned he can have the cereal aisle until he doesn't want the cereal aisle anymore.

I'm not even scared of snakes but a King Cobra? That one freaked me the hell out. People are gonna be people.

Carry on with the rules debate:)
 
dthogey said:
That is the video that I watched that confused me so much. If you look at the diagram below the video it seems to be different. For a lost ball you have to estimate where the ball came to rest. For one that goes out of bounds you have to use the point where it crossed the boundary line
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Yes, exactly. That confused me at first too, because I was watching it with just OB in mind, not realizing at first the "came to rest" applies to lost balls only.
 
JMB3 said:
slimjim32 said:
Pulled from USGA website:

View attachment 37285
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It was in the interest of possibly improving pace of play that both of these local Rules were created and endorsed by the USGA.
For players wanting to play faster, but also observe the Rules of Golf, the new local Rules likely make good sense.
For players determined to shoot their lowest possible score, choosing the local Rule option will usually not be advantageous.
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I think some of the confusion earlier in the thread was that it seems oob was sometimes being referred to as a hazard but the two are different of course. A "hazard" is one stroke same as always.

The one thing about the new local rule (if my local courses implant it) is going to make a lot of people, especially those mid to high cappers who can be somewhat errant enough times now realize just how many strokes worse they really have been. So very many people think to drop and take a stroke for a lost or oob ball was normal. Now that it would be noted as 2 strokes penalty they are going to be like "whhaaaat?...2 strokes? ..how is that better?" because they never realized those 3,4 times a round or more they actually were that far on the vanity side. I cant tell you how many people said they broke 90 or broke 80 as well yet even in that 79 round are likely to have one or two lost balls they never counted the correct way. Not that it means much nor important to anyone else but to them.... just sayin.


One question I have about oob is this. Oob may mean private property, or could mean protected land, or dangerous area, or whatever else there is reason for it. I could never understand one being able to enter that area to find or identify a ball. I mean even if they don't play from there, isn't there any rule (and even possibly law) that doesn't allow one to cross into oob even if just a few feet? That's one part I don't get. If its oob then why do the rules talk of identifying the ball that went oob. Unless im misunderstanding that it just doesn't make sense. To me oob means exactly what it means and that would seem to indicate we are not allowed past that line. Just exactly what is up with that part?
 
If a ball has gone out of bounds then regardless of whether you can find it or not, it is classed as out of bounds, not a lost ball, and you follow the rules for the OB situation and not a lost ball

In my opinion, the easiest way to negate any confusion around the rule is that if you think your ball has gone OB then play a provisional ball from where you have just hit from rather than heading towards where you think it might be and then having to work out where it crossed the boundary - if you then find the first ball in bounds then you can continue as normal, otherwise you take the penalty drop and shot for your provisional and then continue with your provisional (so you would be lying 3 off the tee, or if you have hit your second shot OB you would then be lying 4 from the location of your provisional)

Otherwise, you take the point at which your ball crossed the OB line and take your drop in accordance with the rules, add 2 shots to however many you have already played and then continue from that point

I don't see the confusion to be honest, but then I have always played a provisional ball if I think my original may be OB or lost and continued the hole with whichever ball and penalty shots are required
 
TheDoctor said:
If a ball has gone out of bounds then regardless of whether you can find it or not, it is classed as out of bounds, not a lost ball, and you follow the rules for the OB situation and not a lost ball

In my opinion, the easiest way to negate any confusion around the rule is that if you think your ball has gone OB then play a provisional ball from where you have just hit from rather than heading towards where you think it might be and then having to work out where it crossed the boundary - if you then find the first ball in bounds then you can continue as normal, otherwise you take the penalty drop and shot for your provisional and then continue with your provisional (so you would be lying 3 off the tee, or if you have hit your second shot OB you would then be lying 4 from the location of your provisional)

Otherwise, you take the point at which your ball crossed the OB line and take your drop in accordance with the rules, add 2 shots to however many you have already played and then continue from that point

I don't see the confusion to be honest, but then I have always played a provisional ball if I think my original may be OB or lost and continued the hole with whichever ball and penalty shots are required
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One potential problem I see with this is that if you hit your first shot and you are not sure whether or not it's out of bounds and play a provisional I thought you were bound to play the provisional if your first shot is out of bounds not having a choice as to whether or not to take the drop in accordance with the new rules. So let's just say I hit my tee shot 250 yards and it just trickles one foot out of bounds and my provisional shot was Miss hit and only 120 yards. Would I still have the choice to take a drop in accordance with the new rules 250 yards out in the Fairway? Either way I would be laying three.

I'm sorry for all these questions and scenarios, I really am trying to understand the rules.

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dthogey said:
One potential problem I see with this is that if you hit your first shot and you are not sure whether or not it's out of bounds and play a provisional I thought you were bound to play the provisional if your first shot is out of bounds not having a choice as to whether or not to take the drop in accordance with the new rules. So let's just say I hit my tee shot 250 yards and it just trickles one foot out of bounds and my provisional shot was Miss hit and only 120 yards. Would I still have the choice to take a drop in accordance with the new rules 250 yards out in the Fairway? Either way I would be laying three.

I'm sorry for all these questions and scenarios, I really am trying to understand the rules.

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk
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In that instance, I would personally just accept I hit a bad shot and suck it up, but this could be an instance where you can almost 'bend' the rules to your benefit if you have the choice between choosing to play your provisional or make use of the new rules??

I honestly don't know the answer to that one, but it will be fun trying to figure it out

Edit - Forgot to add in my original post that this rule wouldn't have any effect on me anyway, as you can't use this rule in competition/tournament play (and that is how our handicaps are adjusted over here)
 
dthogey said:
One potential problem I see with this is that if you hit your first shot and you are not sure whether or not it's out of bounds and play a provisional I thought you were bound to play the provisional if your first shot is out of bounds not having a choice as to whether or not to take the drop in accordance with the new rules. So let's just say I hit my tee shot 250 yards and it just trickles one foot out of bounds and my provisional shot was Miss hit and only 120 yards. Would I still have the choice to take a drop in accordance with the new rules 250 yards out in the Fairway? Either way I would be laying three.

I'm sorry for all these questions and scenarios, I really am trying to understand the rules.

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk
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I copied this from the usga. notice where (I placed in bold) it says "when a provisional has not been played." So if you played a provisional and the ball is oob then the provisional is your ball in play and you no longer have the new local relief option.

"E-5 Alternative to Stroke and Distance for Lost Ball or Ball Out of Bounds
Purpose. When a provisional ball has not been played, significant issues with pace of play can result for a player needing to take stroke-and-distance relief for a ball that is out of bounds or cannot be found. The purpose of this Local Rule is to allow a Committee to provide an extra relief option that allows a player to play on without returning to the location of the previous stroke."

Honestly, i feel that when/wherever the new local relief option is put into practice they should just use that rule and not allow provisional. lets face it, many people can be regularly errant. Doing so several times a round and can also be errant with a provisional. The new local rule is to truly help pace and make things much more convenient for that purpose then it really should be such that its not just a relief option but is the only option. I mean if it is to truly work as a means towards that end then why not just make it the only option. Everyone hits,...if in the woods, oob, whatever....no second retee provisionals (some of which can be just as bad) ,...just go to the appropriate place and if ball is lost or oob take the appropriate 2 stroke penalty drop and move on from the edge of the fairway. That imo is the best and most practical way to truly take advantage of what the new local rule is trying to accomplish in the first place.
 
I know it wouldn't be the golf we always played, but since they modified the OB rule anyway, I wish they would've gone further. Simplify things by playing them similar to lateral hazards. Maybe assess 2 strokes if OB versus the standard 1 penalty stroke lateral drop. But the rules would be much simpler if every penalty drop scenario us weekend golfers faced was exactly the same.
 
I like this rule and its not very complicated once you understand it. When I send one OB I am not in a great state of mind to tee another up and do it again. On a lost ball in bounds you estimate where it ended up. On an OB shot you estimate where it crossed OB. Drop one near the edge of the fairway and your hitting your fourth. It is still a harsh penalty in my opinion. A provisional only complicates matters.
 
badolds said:
I like this rule and its not very complicated once you understand it. When I send one OB I am not in a great state of mind to tee another up and do it again. On a lost ball in bounds you estimate where it ended up. On an OB shot you estimate where it crossed OB. Drop one near the edge of the fairway and your hitting your fourth. It is still a harsh penalty in my opinion. A provisional only complicates matters.
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It always was a harsh penalty. especially when we consider how pros occasionally hit errant as well, yet their ball is found for them before they even leave the tee box. We may simply just be in the rough and not even in weeds or woods (or whatever) and we have to lose 2 strokes or stroke and distance while they lose nothing at all. I can get it when one of us hits something really errant and deep into thick woods or even a bit into a heavily wooded/forested edge of the hole. But honestly when hit to places like a relatively thin tree line between two holes, or under a fairly open tree canopy, or simply in the rough, such a ball would/should easily be found yet we simply overlook it and unable to see it.....was just never fair imo.

I have (for sake of pace and practicality) already been using the drop and 2 stroke method for some time when i didn't hit a provisional. I wanted to be fair to the rules as possible for my personal scoring but instead of walking back i would estimate, drop and hit 4 from there instead of walking back for stroke and distance. But then i realized there are times (as noted about above) where it just inst fair. At least not for the balls that should be found fairly easily except for the minimal help we sometimes have if any. So when im outright bad errant off course into thick stuff its one thing and i take the 2 strokes or hit the provisional. But when certain the ball is in a place where it is relatively open and should easily be found im taking just the 1 stroke in my casual golf. i mean when i see pros hit a ball 30 yrds off the layout and into thick 3foot high fescue or heavy wooded areas and they receive no penalty at all and dont even have to look for their ball,...it just isnt right imo that i am to suffer 2 strokes for something not even half as bad that may simply be in the rough near the fairway (but overlooked) or perhaps if a bit worse near/under some thin tree canopy between 2 holes. you know...places where a ball just wouldn't ever be lost given even a percentage of the help the pros get. So i dont feel guilty about that at all. It shouldn't even be any penalty in some of those scenarios but we just dont see the ball and dont have even a small percent of the luxury they have. i mean i usually dont feel right about tweaking a rule cause i dont like to cheat myself. But this one doesnt leave me with that feeling anymore. i thought it always unfair. As said,..outright bad shot and into a bad place? yea.. that is one thing, but not for a ball that would otherwise be easily found.
 
I am totally confused...

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Daddio said:
I know it wouldn't be the golf we always played, but since they modified the OB rule anyway, I wish they would've gone further. Simplify things by playing them similar to lateral hazards. Maybe assess 2 strokes if OB versus the standard 1 penalty stroke lateral drop. But the rules would be much simpler if every penalty drop scenario us weekend golfers faced was exactly the same.
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Agreed. The 2-stroke penalty for OB shots is illogical and a bad rule. It is illogical because a shot into the bottom of a lateral pond allows you to take a one-stroke penalty and drop at the point the ball went in. It is in effect the exact same situation- the exact same bad swing but if the fairway has a white stake next to it, you get a double penalty while if the fairway has a pond next to it you get just one penalty. Illogical.
 
mdowney58 said:
I am totally confused...
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To make it as simple as possible:

You hit a ball out of bounds;

If the course has a local rule allowing it, you have the option to go to where the ball crossed the OB boundary, take a drop within two club lengths (no nearer the hole), take a two stroke penalty and play from there. You're now lying 3, hitting 4.

If the course does not have a local rule allowing the above, you take a penalty of (one) stroke and distance, hitting from where you last hit from. You're now lying 2, hitting 3.


My main gripe about it was the part about the course making a local rule. That puts the onus on the course to reprint all their scorecards with the new local rule, or to post it somewhere and assume that people actually read it. IMO, it should have just been incorporated into the Rules of Golf as an option, period. They could have always done the reverse and stated that a course would have to have a local rule prohibiting it - that way it would be simple enough to not allow it to be used in high-level competitions. Just declare it as a local rule for that tournament that it's not allowed.
 
LICC said:
Agreed. The 2-stroke penalty for OB shots is illogical and a bad rule. It is illogical because a shot into the bottom of a lateral pond allows you to take a one-stroke penalty and drop at the point the ball went in. It is in effect the exact same situation- the exact same bad swing but if the fairway has a white stake next to it, you get a double penalty while if the fairway has a pond next to it you get just one penalty. Illogical.
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OB has never been a "two stroke penalty". It's a one stroke penalty plus the distance. Lateral hazard is the same (if the player's ball last crosses the hazard near from where he/she struck the original shot ).
What is "illogical" about this ? Some hazards and, or, areas of the golf shots are more penal than others and a player uses this criteria to make risk/reward decisions.
For example at Waste Management (Phoenix Open) guys routinely risk playing their tee balls at the short par 4, 17th green (because entering the water hazard to the front left of the green leaves a relatively easy penalty drop-up-and-down-for-par). If that hole had OB area front left of the green players would choose to lay up off the tee and play it as a true two shot par 4. So, there is nothing "illogical" about the different types of penalty areas, it's just part of the game which creates different risk/reward shot opportunities.
 
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