Ah..the intentional unintentional completely legitimate illegitimate sandbagging

darthweasel

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 1, 2015
Messages
1,659
Reaction score
569
Location
Beaverton
Handicap
11.4
the too long to read version:

I now know how someone can legitimately shoot better than their handicap every day of a tournament


the "I like reading a bit more in depth" version

Potential sandbagging seems to be a major issue when it comes to handicaps. So does people playing to or above their handicap. I have carried a handicap for 2 or 3 years now and for the vast majority of that time, it was purely for my own amazement and amusement. I did not play in tournaments, did not gamble, and the only thing it did was serve as a benchmark for me to see my improvement. And sure enough, about one of every 4 or 5 rounds I would be happy with. Sometimes 2 or 3 in a row but that would be followed by many "bad" rounds as I reverted to the mean.

Now however I have a tournament coming up where it is almost guaranteed I will look like a sandbagger.
This past winter Frank got me interested in playing in a local winter series of tournaments. Even though my handicap was not "official" they used it as a baseline for the 1-day handicap thing. The first tournament I shot a net 1 under playing my own ball. The second was a 2 man best ball, Frank was not around so I partnered with a guy from work and we did the perfect ham and egg…I par or birdied the first 4 holes while he was double/triple/not finishing. Then he went par or birdie on 4 of the next 5 while I was in the midst of a meltdown where I picked up without finishing on at least two holes after 8 strokes...I did have a couple pars the rest of the way to help, he shot a 38 on his own. We finished several shots under par net because of how well we meshed. Third one was Frank and I in a shamble where again we meshed well…I was playing very well off the tee and very poorly thereafter. He was scuffling a bit off the tee but money close in. I had just enough good holes where he scuffled and vice versa to help out. We ended up 8 or 9 under. Funny part is in only one of these three did I play well…but the clever-eyed observer might note my team and I were net under all three times, and one of those by a lot. I was in 9[SUP]th[/SUP] overall in the league. Fortunately, the last tournament, again playing my own, I had a rugged day and was net 9 over. Weird to feel good about playing like garbage but I was not sad to underperform.

Moment of disclosure: between Frank and I's shamble and the tournament mentioned above, my back has deteriorated as residue from an auto accident is making life pretty miserable. I have lost so much flexibility I cannot cross one leg over the other between those times.
Fast forward to today. Handicap season just started. I signed up for the NWGG and they maintain a GHIN but none of my scores to date are entered so it is as if I am starting over. But there are complications. The back injury from my auto accident has been getting worse. The doc suggests as long as I can handle the pain it is better to be out doing stuff than sitting on my ever-growing posterior gaining weight and losing flexibility so I have been muddling through. However, the loss of flexibility has changed my swing. I have lost massive length off the tee, massive length and accuracy with my irons (example: a 156 yard hole in the last tournament, historically that is a 9i for me, I used a 7i…and came up 30 yards short) and cannot hit a wedge at all. My 50 degree ¾ swing that was money from 95 now goes about 35 yards. Or 60 yards. Or if I blade it 160 yards. Between my drive drpping from a 238 average to about 201, my wedges disappearing, and my irons being suspect, it is fair to say I am not playing to the best of my normal ability.
In the last tournament of the year on a pretty soft course I should reasonably shoot an 85 or so I nailed a sweet 98. On a 4800 yard, par 66 course with a massive slope rating of 90 (not a typo) I have just had back to back 46-43/89 rounds followed by a nine hole 45 spectacular. .I EXPECT to break 80 there even though really have only done so maybe 5 or 6 times.

Naturally when I get the requisite number of scores posted, my GHIN is going to be sky high. The first score recorded in it is that tournament 98. So I have the 98, two 89s at a slope 90 and whatever I shoot the next two Saturdays. It will be ugly. And it will also be accurate for how I am playing right now, playing to the best of my ability.
I am trying very hard to shoot low scores. Unfortunately, when you used to have a slight draw and now fade most things but pull when your hip spasms in the middle of a swing, chunk all your wedges…you don’t know where the ball will go. Or how far. I know my wedge will not work so I have started trying to bump and run from as far out as 135. So far I am not successful very often but it is coming closer more often.
There is a very plain, obvious hole in my game that if I can fix I will almost instantly drop 8-10 strokes a round. Be able to hit a wedge. Right now from 135 until maybe 20 yards off the green I literally do not have a makeable shot. My chipping and putting have been (for me) money, my tee shots, while short, have been decent. But there is 110ish yard zone where it is too short for my 9i, too long to bump and run and my wedges are…horrific.
Well, coming up at the end of April I am partnering with a co-worker and we are playing in the Central Oregon Shootout, and it is an event I will take serious. I like my co-worker, don’t want to let him down, and there are actually a ton of prizes available. As a result, I will actually suck it up, get out and practice the wedges. Then I will suck down double the meds to try to recover. I don’t do it right now because, full disclosure…it hurts. A lot. Like after golf I tend to have to resort to both over the counter (ibuprofen) and prescription (muscle relaxers) medications. So I don’t spend any time practicing right now. Nor will I till about a week before because I cannot face the pain that long. The day after the doctor told me this was the new baseline for rest of my life I was so depressed my wife, an RN, literally almost did not go to work because she was afraid I was suicidal. I was not, am not and will not be...but I gave that impression. Nope, just in pain.
But for the tournament I will try to spend the time to get my wedge swing back. I worked on that at the range before last tournament and it was on the edge of coming back. But it needs work. And that range session almost prevented me from finishing the tournament. But to make sure I hold up my end for Vince, I will fight through it and see if I cannot either consistently bump and run from that far out or make an adjustment to the wedge swing so I am not going Mike Mulligan and His Steamshovel on every wedge.
Naturally if I suddenly go from not having a reliable shot to having a reliable shot in the scoring zone, my scores should…uh…improve. Noticeably. If I were to play Crosswater today I would not be shocked to shoot a 110 playing to the best of my current availability. After dialing in my wedges I will not be shocked to shoot an 85 or 90.
So I am really between a rock and a hard place. I am a better golfer than my legit, official handicap will show. If the scores I just recorded on my own were legit, postable scores I would be much lower but they are not legal to post. I know going in that even though my handicap is completely legitimate and legal, it is completely illegitimate for my actual potential.

I will play better all three days of the tournament. It will look to anyone who does not know the story like I am a sandbagger. I get how it can happen. It is going to be me. If I start the practice too soon, I will not have time to get enough scores for my cap. I also am unlikely to be able to play enough or finish the tournament, that is just my physical reality. I can either practice to show my legit score…or I can play. I cannot do both. that is simply my physical reality.

So to those who are there and think I am cheating; I will not be. If a miracle happens and I regain flexibility sooner (in physical therapy weekly still) then my cap will look better but if not: I will, feeling zero shame or embarrassment, outplay my cap every round.
 
 
Too long, did not read: I actually know of a real scenario where someone is virtually certain to shoot better than their handicap back to back to back days.
 
I’m as likely to look like a vanity as I am a sandbagger on any given day due to being so darn inconsistent.

If you’re shooting vastly improved scores vs your HC and you know why (as you explained) you may want to talk to the tournament director beforehand, especially if there is money involved. If you shoot 10 strokes better than your HC (or more) three straight days, you’re likely to be DQ’d if you don’t explain what you just did.

And sorry to hear of your health issues. I’m battling through some myself.
 
I say play, and let the rumors about you cheating fly. In fact, I recommend being overtly, blatantly proud of them. Play it up like a heel in pro wrasslin'. Who cares, be honest to thyself. It's a game, and at this point, you only need to enjoy yourself.
 
The system isn't perfect. At the end of the day if you know that your scores are legit who cares what anyone else says. I'm sure some will get annoyed that you're posting handicap rounds while injured but I don't see a way around that. It's not really different from me posting handicap rounds while I'm struggling with the shanks.

I've been called a sandbagger (LOL) and I've been called a vanity capper. Heck once I was called both those things 5 days apart in consecutive tournaments. Golf is crazy.
 
Firstly sorry to hear about all the physical ailments, hope the PT goes well and just keep pushing through. Male who sucks, when I hurt my back I thought "I lift and run so I don't need to do shoulder blade flexes and ab stuff".. But once I did I improved 10x faster and I did the exercises on my own at home too

Second, just play your game. If you know wedges are a weakness lay up to your favorite club lenth. It might suck, but chunking and skulling wedges for a couple extra strokes a hole is worse than the one extra.

Third, f the talkers, let them run their mouths. Just have fun and play the best ya can.

Pa I by no means am any pro, and likely would not listen to my own advice haha but seriously, hope things improve for you.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
appreciate the good words. Last night I made a slight adjustment (we played just 9). The first few holes tried one wedge which I duly chunked, bump and ran the rest then on 9 hit the first wedge I have been happy with in months. So maybe I will post reasonable scores more often than not going forward...which I will feel better about. And to be fair, from what I have heard, there is so much drinking that most people will have no clue who did what...we will see...I am just excited to play 1 new course and 2 I have played before that are really fun
 
I say play, and let the rumors about you cheating fly. In fact, I recommend being overtly, blatantly proud of them. Play it up like a heel in pro wrasslin'. Who cares, be honest to thyself. It's a game, and at this point, you only need to enjoy yourself.

I’ll stick with my original assertion, if you improve that rapidly, you need to let the tournament director know. If you go 10 shots below your HC 3 straight days you’ll be DQ’d.

Easy solution (and less painful for you) would be to bring your current game to the tourney. Your HC is appropriate to that. I get getting better through the pain. But that’s only going to bring pain and more pain (by being labeled a sandbagger). If you get out and improve, you should notify the committee. You’ll never post 10 strokes better for 3 straight days and not be DQ’d. Plus even if it’s legitimate, it wouldn’t be fair to the field.

I’ve taken a lot of flak on here and elsewhere by doing what I feel is fair vs what is legit by the rules. I haven’t posted rounds when it should be LCP (I have a short thread going where I stated that I’m 8ish strokes better by playing preferable lies, ie LCP), but it wasn’t listed by the course as such. Despite me being as likely to shoot 100 as even par (this is true, I have as many par or better rounds as I have 100+ rounds the past 4 years-legitimately), I only post rounds that reflect my true ability. If conditions are such that I can only play LCP, I don’t post them. Again, I’ve taken a lot of flak here for that view-but it’s pretty easy to play par golf when I play LCP-regardless of other conditions.

If you practice and improve, you have a duty to explain your position. You won’t get by playing 10 strokes better than your HC 3 straight days. I’m not trying to be a jerk but any legitimate tournament director will DQ you for that. One day would be enough. 3 days is a trend that not even the best golfers in the world can do. Take the worlds best for example. If they average 69.3 strokes, they may have a 59/67/68. That’ll win them a lot of money. They won’t have a 59/60/58. No ones ever done that.
 
well, we just got back from the tournament. Good news is, because of how they flight, they had me play at an 18.8 which I think is not unreasonable, a bit high if I am playing well. The bad news is I played to my current cap of 23.6. Good news is...it did not matter due to formats. In the scramble, I hit enough shots to help my partner, he hit enough that we went I think 7 under (leaders were 13 under).

Day 2 was best ball. I drove the %^&* out of the ball...and the %^& was how I played from second shot in. 52-52=104, highest score I have had in years. But the holes I sucked on he played well, the ones I hit par or net par he often did not so we went another 3ish under. Last day was a Chapman. I set him up with my drives and we usually played his approach shot. If not for a triple bogey meltdown on the last hole we would have been 6 under, ended up 3 under, I think for the tournament we ended up I think 15 under, 10 or 12 shots behind the leaders.

Best part we had a tremendous amount of fun, I was able to leave feeling good about playing legit and we did not embarrass ourselves out there.


I did have to laugh, even our playing partners were egging me on to drive. A couple times I started to pull other clubs and both my partner and our opponents were like, "No, we want to see it". I was absolutely crushing the ball. Most of the par 5s were roughly 500-558 yards and the longest second shot we had was 233 yards, most were 180-195. Too bad I flew the green by 20-40 yards on pretty much every one of them...and then could not chip to save my life. Was elevating everything. Try to hit a low runner...oh look hit that tree branch and dropped straight down. Chunk. Chip to 12'. 2 putt. Nice, a 7 on a hole you overdrove in two.

Or the 528 yarder my 180 yard approach landed pin high on the hill above. Short sided, try to pitch over the sand, short of water, feel like I nailed it oh look, wind stuck it in the sand. Play the sand shot, oh, look, hit a rock, bladed it across and ob. Drop, on in 6, 2-putt.

At least in the Chapman, I was able to set my partner up to hit the approach shot and we did really well there. He did not have my yips.
 
I’m as likely to look like a vanity as I am a sandbagger on any given day due to being so darn inconsistent.

THIS

I have not shot over a 100 Since October. Played my first tournament this weekend and posted a 113. Embarrassing doesn't quite cover it.
 
THIS

I have not shot over a 100 Since October. Played my first tournament this weekend and posted a 113. Embarrassing doesn't quite cover it.

I was laughing because every day they would say we were playing "X" tees...but every box was the one behind it. So according to the score card we playing like 6200 but in reality it was 6600. Makes a difference....
 
Personally I fully understand I’m in the single 1% here but I just don’t believe in the HC system. I’d rather get my ass kicked by a scratch - 5 then win because he gave me a few a side. But I get why it exists
 
Personally I fully understand I’m in the single 1% here but I just don’t believe in the HC system. I’d rather get my ass kicked by a scratch - 5 then win because he gave me a few a side. But I get why it exists

I like this line of thought too. When dad first got back in the game I gave him a stroke a hole to make it more fair. I always hated that, if he just bogeyed every hole bed beat me 98% of the time.

He’s gotten better (retired so plays/practices all the time) and I’ve gotten worse, unsure why on that one-lol. I Just can’t seem to score anymore. I only got one so when (not if:)) I get into a THP event I’ll have something to go on.
 
I like this line of thought too. When dad first got back in the game I gave him a stroke a hole to make it more fair. I always hated that, if he just bogeyed every hole bed beat me 98% of the time.

He’s gotten better (retired so plays/practices all the time) and I’ve gotten worse, unsure why on that one-lol. I Just can’t seem to score anymore. I only got one so when (not if:)) I get into a THP event I’ll have something to go on.

I get it if I'm a 5 and you're a 20... but if I'm a 5 and playing a 3 I'd rather play straight up. I wish there was a threshold where a certain gap played straight up
 
I get it if I'm a 5 and you're a 20... but if I'm a 5 and playing a 3 I'd rather play straight up. I wish there was a threshold where a certain gap played straight up

Agreed. I’m an 8.8 trending the wrong way right now. I’d play you straight up, but not for much money-:)
 
Agreed. I’m an 8.8 trending the wrong way right now. I’d play you straight up, but not for much money-:)

On a teachers salary, we'd be playing for a dog at the turn.
 
Personally I fully understand I’m in the single 1% here but I just don’t believe in the HC system. I’d rather get my ass kicked by a scratch - 5 then win because he gave me a few a side. But I get why it exists

Most people like you who are a 5 index have the same attitude. At my last club I played a lot of rounds with guys from a +1 to a 4 index. Strokes were rarely given, and never in a team or skins game.
 
As a statistics expert your golf score is going to be normally distributed (think bell curver) for the most part. Your best rounds are going to be 3-7 strokes better than your expected score because you hit a tree and bounced into the fairway, made all 3 10' putts you had, made a chip in, etc. You're worst scores are going to be 3-7 strokes worse than expected because that ball bounced into the woods instead of the fairway, you missed those 10 footers and you chipped on and 2 putted instead of chipping in. There is a lot of variance to our golf score. If your handicap is right you should win because of it about as often as you lose despite it.
 
Most people like you who are a 5 index have the same attitude. At my last club I played a lot of rounds with guys from a +1 to a 4 index. Strokes were rarely given, and never in a team or skins game.

It's one of the main reasons I decided to sign up at a local public course for the season... besides PatsFan and Greg from THP I don't know many locals who love the game as much as I do. It's amazing to be a part of an online community where everyone would play every day if you gave them the chance.
 
I get it if I'm a 5 and you're a 20... but if I'm a 5 and playing a 3 I'd rather play straight up. I wish there was a threshold where a certain gap played straight up

There is. And its called the pro tour. lol

But technically i suppose if there were enough players in the same ability level (give or take a few strokes) living and playing in the same area , whos to say you couldnt form such an event? I mean couldnt someone come up with and have people sign up for non HC event. lets say make it available to anyone with a HC of 6 or less and who wants to play a non HC tournament. All you would need is enough people I suppose. No?
 
There is. And its called the pro tour. lol

But technically i suppose if there were enough players in the same ability level (give or take a few strokes) living and playing in the same area , whos to say you couldnt form such an event? I mean couldnt someone come up with and have people sign up for non HC event. lets say make it available to anyone with a HC of 6 or less and who wants to play a non HC tournament. All you would need is enough people I suppose. No?

I think people like the pro shop credits more!
 
I get it if I'm a 5 and you're a 20... but if I'm a 5 and playing a 3 I'd rather play straight up. I wish there was a threshold where a certain gap played straight up

If you join Men’s Club at most courses they typically have a gross players pool which is essentially a straight up game. I don’t get in that game but most who are 6-7 and under caps do and those guys usually stay out of the net pool.

Gross skins, closest to the pin etc. also heavily favor better players. I do donate frequently to these games and rarely see return on the investment.

The week to week games (quota, team best ball, alternate shot etc.) are played with caps but the better players tend to hold their own just fine.......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
My handicap is going up slightly because I’m playing mostly shorter tees(6410) at a new course that has a rating of only 71.2/137 and is a par 73. 10 even par home rounds out of the last 20 scores would leave me with a 1.5 index. IMO the course rating should be a stroke or more higher as it plays tougher than my old course that had had a 71.8/139 rating. They had a state amateur qualifier here in 2017 and the medalist, an Ohio State golfer, shot one under for 36 holes and only one other shot even par. The greens are sloped and easy to 3 putt if past pin high. The good news is my handicap will travel very well this year, twice in the last two weeks I’ve played other courses and beat my index by a couple strokes each time.
 
Since I started tracking my scores a couple years ago, I've realized there's many ways to "unintentionally" cheat the handicap system. For example, my best/only skill in golf is hitting it far. My swing speed averages somewhere in the 115-120mph range which is faster than a lot of plus handicaps. Putting, short game, and accuracy are all probably more or less on par with a 15-20 HDCP. The overall result is about a 10 HDCP. However, if I was just to look at rounds played on open 6800+ yards courses I would probably grade out closer to 5. If you just look at my rounds played on narrow tracks less than 6200 yards I'd look more like a 15. If you get me on a narrow 6000 yard course, it basically neutralises the only skill I excel at. On the contrary, that open 7100 yard course is supposedly hard because of length, but someone like myself just won't care that much about it. I could easily sandbag simply playing all my rounds on short narrow courses, and then enter tournaments on long open courses.

I also agree with the posters who are not interested in playing handicapped matches. Even when I am playing handicapped matches (against friends) I find myself caring far more about my actual score than the match. I track my handicap solely to track improvement.
 
Back
Top