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A question for the dinosaurs

Space Bandito

Space Bandito

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I think I'm in the minority here based on the number of years I've been playing this great game. My experience in golf began with what is still considered to be somewhat modern technology. Sure a lot has evolved in the 5.5 years since I played my first round, but ultimately the changes weren't as drastic as the move from persimmon to titanium.



So here's my question: IF you began playing with persimmon clubs or even earlier (Hickory? Feather balls?) or even if you began playing at the advent of titanium 'woods' and graphite shafts, have you seen a significant improvement* over the years as you've switched into the new technologies?

How frequently did you upgrade? Were the results apparent immediately, or were you switching just to switch?

*Improvement can be anything really - distance gained, control, forgiveness, etc.


At the base of this long winded post is this: Do you feel the clubs made you a better player?
 
I learned on actual wooden woods, growing up with my dad - metalwoods were introduced right around when I started playing the game, but we didn't have a ton of money growing up so I was playing with hand-me-downs.

On the iron side, I could go back to some of the cavity backs I played and probably put up similar scores - I think playing with the players cavity for a while last year showed me that. However, going back to a more forgiving iron in the CF19 reminds me that you can now have the best of both worlds with looks and forgiveness these days, and that's a big thing.
 
First two years of my golf was with wooden woods and similarly aged copper irons. Back then I struggled as I was a total beginner but right now I reckon I would shoot 3 shots ish worse if I had a full set of clubs
 
I started my golf journey early 90’s. I remember my first driver and woods were Titleist persimmons with steel shafts. There were metal woods but I couldn’t afford them. Finally bought a Tommy Armour Driver with graphite shafts. Had many drivers since than.
Looking back and I do believe modern driver is much more forgiving hence you can actually swing harder to gain more distance. But on actual flush hit distance seems similar except the persimmon drivers.

I think the balls has improved much more so than drivers. There are so many different type of ball that can custom to your playing style. Back than not many choices of balls.
Beginner plays topflite or wilson staff. Better player plays balata or Titleist Professional.

It’s awesome era for golfer. The equipments are so good now, you can pick any drivers from different oem and can make you look like a “real player”


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pmm21 said:
I think I'm in the minority here based on the number of years I've been playing this great game. My experience in golf began with what is still considered to be somewhat modern technology. Sure a lot has evolved in the 5.5 years since I played my first round, but ultimately the changes weren't as drastic as the move from persimmon to titanium.



So here's my question: IF you began playing with persimmon clubs or even earlier (Hickory? Feather balls?) or even if you began playing at the advent of titanium 'woods' and graphite shafts, have you seen a significant improvement* over the years as you've switched into the new technologies?

How frequently did you upgrade? Were the results apparent immediately, or were you switching just to switch?

*Improvement can be anything really - distance gained, control, forgiveness, etc.


At the base of this long winded post is this: Do you feel the clubs made you a better player?
Click to expand...

For driver, woods and putters - I replaced far too often. But in the early days for me, it wasn't because I was upgrading just to upgrade. I couldn't hit the driver and woods properly and had the stupid thought that it was the clubs and not me. Iron sets little too expensive to replace too often. So of course because it was my swing and not the clubs, there was no noticeable improvement.

When it came to replacing my irons, I had TNT crap clubs for my beginner set and then was gifted a set of Ping G10's. Played with the G10's until my swing got good enough to move up to game improvement irons. So in the case of irons, it wasn't the clubs that made me a better player, I improved as a player and upgraded to clubs that had less forgiveness and more distance (Ping G's now) which have helped my playing style. For example, my mishits now are usually pretty minor so I prefer that the ball to still travel far (about 75-80% of max distance) so I'm closer to the green. But the G10's, a mishit would often result in half the max distance leaving me lots more distance to the green.
 
I started in the late 70's as a kid. Balata, persimmons, blades. Acushnet Club Specials. Starflites.

I don't think tech made me a better player but it certainly made my scores better. And over the last decade or so, tech has kept me from going backwards as much as I probably should have.

I upgraded equipment about once a decade until recently. Didn't have the spare coin to do it more often. What I noticed first each time was a leap in distance, and that's right out of the gate. Then forgiveness, and control was still up to my swing.

About equal parts ball and club changes over time. Ball changes were more gradual, since I'd just grab some of whatever was new. Balata > Surlyn was a huge change. Didn't need a new ball after a mishit. Not after one, at least. And the amount of curve has dropped a LOT.

Clubs, it was perimeter weighting. Mishits were much less punitive. Got up in the air better for me, and more often in the intended direction. I usually picked up a club in distance at every switch, and even lately I seem to get a bit back of what I've lost over the last few years.

Drivers are longer, for sure. They're made out of superior materials for the task. But I know I've hit balls 200+ that 30-odd years ago would have been whiffs or sideways. More forgiving for sure. Every time I've switched drivers there's been moderate distance gains, but I immediately noticed hitting fewer balls off the planet.
And not needing to get clubs rewhipped is AWESOME.

As a kid, I couldn't break 100. I am not a prodigy. Got down to 8-10 handicap in my prime, and have slid up to around 15 lately. If I was still using my originals, I firmly believe I'd be at least 20 if not more.

Same guy, same player...but the tech helps the score.
 
I was hesitant to change from persimmon to metal, especially after seeing my brother cave two first generation TaylorMade metal drivers. My eventual switch was to an after market 'Tour Spoon' which was basically a copy of what TaylorMade had on the market (1991 or so). The Spoon was essentially a 2 wood and I gained several yards off the tee with this club. My irons at the time were McGregor VIPs, which were replaced by Cobra Oversized irons about 1996. The iron change improved my accuracy for sure, but I lost some length with them.

I still own some persimmon woods and those old Cobra irons are in the possession of my son, somewhere.
 
Sounds like I grew up into the game about the same times as mpeterson. Most woods weren't actually persimmon because that was more expensive to produce but some sort of laminated wood with a metal or plastic face plate. I actually can remember a thread cone of that waxed cord used on the hosels, and a couple times I had to get help from my pro to finish a project for a customer.

I'm sure I had some in my junior set, but it was burner then bertha for me as I recall.
Karsten was already casting, but I was not exposed until the Eye2. Everyone had blades until they didn't.


To your question: Yes, I've felt and experienced significant improvement. Clubs play their part, but golf balls, shafts and course maintenance did also. Forgiveness, distance, and control probably gained improvement in that order. I think you could argue that in some ways control resisted and the players used to be better shot makers... but it is hard to deny that overall shot quality hasn't improved.

I think you'd be fine changing every five years. I never have because I switch just to switch, because you never know when that new big thing will come. Well that's a lie, you'll know. You'll just be late to the party.

Is it better? I don't think so if you consider the big picture. Why do I play? Have you ever hit a persimmon driver? There is a reason some still say, "I hit it on the screws." I guess now that's considered twist face technology or something that requires a torque wrench.

Good players are still good players.
 
i'm no dinosaur, but the premise of the question seems a little flawed to me.

if we are 30 years removed from those woods, that golfer is 30 years older and has probably lost some speed and strength. the ball has also seen tremendous improvements over the last 30 years. i don't see how anyone could use historical recollections to draw a reliable conclusions.

i have seen "tests" on youtube where people take old tech and compare it to new tech. almost every time the new tech provides better numbers on even small mishits, but out of the middle there are similarities. what i dislike about all of these tests, though, is they're conducted with modern balls. a true test in my mind would be the balls available when the old tech was released, compared to the balls available with the new tech.
 
I started at age 13 in 1978, played more than 80 rounds when I was 14, and was up to 120+ rounds/year in the short Wisconsin golf season by the time I was in high school. My first set was my mom's old Wilson Patty Berg signatures. The game has gotten easier with the forgiveness of clubhead and shaft tech but it is still the same game. I got my handicap down to a 3 by the time I was 15 and a scratch a year later with that old technology. The old drivers and woods did have the advantage of giving you a ton of feedback on your misses and I felt maybe it was an advantage learning the game that was as it forced me to develop a swing that could find the sweet spot. IMO, the Ping Eye 2's that came out in 1982 were as forgiving as many GI irons of today. Obviously, the shafts and fittings are much better, but my current Srixon irons aren't as forgiving as those Eye 2's from 37 years ago. Woods are much more forgiving as I remember losing 50 yards on a slightly thin drive back then off my Persimmon driver with a 130 cc clubhead size, smaller than my XR Pro 4 wood. Those old Taylormades still feel damn good, but the clubhead and sweet spot is smaller than nearly all of today's irons. They have a lot of sentimental value to me because I played them for 19 years and logged about 2500 rounds on them.



The modern golf ball has advanced maybe as much as clubhead and shaft technology. The modern ball spins less which makes it longer and straighter, especially off the driver. When the Pro V1 came out in 2000 I only picked up a few yards on my short irons but immediately gained 12+ yards off the driver. At the time I was playing a Biggest Big Berta or maybe even a Hawkeye. Every couple years I pull out my old 1980 Taylormade Tour Preferred irons and Powerbilt persimmon woods and those irons still work great and because of the modern ball, I still hit my irons about the same distance even though I've lost about 5mph on my clubhead speed. It's funny after all this time that I still carry a 9 iron 145 yards and a 4 iron about 200 yards.
 
McLovin said:
i'm no dinosaur, but the premise of the question seems a little flawed to me.

if we are 30 years removed from those woods, that golfer is 30 years older and has probably lost some speed and strength. the ball has also seen tremendous improvements over the last 30 years. i don't see how anyone could use historical recollections to draw a reliable conclusions.

i have seen "tests" on youtube where people take old tech and compare it to new tech. almost every time the new tech provides better numbers on even small mishits, but out of the middle there are similarities. what i dislike about all of these tests, though, is they're conducted with modern balls. a true test in my mind would be the balls available when the old tech was released, compared to the balls available with the new tech.
Click to expand...


I think you're taking to cynical of an approach here. I'm looking for opinions, not statistical analysis. I think everyone knows that aging can play a big role in the game of golf, but my not bringing it into the OP does not invalidate my curiosity. I want to know if people who actually played with the old tech believe the new tech is substantially better. I have no way to gauge it, as I have never played with a persimmon wood.

I suppose I can rephrase it: If you never aged a day over 25, do you feel that today's club technology gives you an advantage in the game over the clubs you had 20-40 years ago?

Is that difficult to say with absolute fact? Definitely! That's why the opinion is important to me.

The very reason I didn't bring the ball into the question is because you can't avoid changing into newer ball tech. Unless you go scouring ebay for old balls, eventually you'll be forced to buy balls from a retailer, and they're selling the latest.
 
JimBetts said:
I was hesitant to change from persimmon to metal, especially after seeing my brother cave two first generation TaylorMade metal drivers. My eventual switch was to an after market 'Tour Spoon' which was basically a copy of what TaylorMade had on the market (1991 or so). The Spoon was essentially a 2 wood and I gained several yards off the tee with this club. My irons at the time were McGregor VIPs, which were replaced by Cobra Oversized irons about 1996. The iron change improved my accuracy for sure, but I lost some length with them.

I still own some persimmon woods and those old Cobra irons are in the possession of my son, somewhere.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I'm not down in SA. I would nag you to let me try one or two of those woods!
 
pmm21 said:
I think you're taking to cynical of an approach here. I'm looking for opinions, not statistical analysis. I think everyone knows that aging can play a big role in the game of golf, but my not bringing it into the OP does not invalidate my curiosity. I want to know if people who actually played with the old tech believe the new tech is substantially better. I have no way to gauge it, as I have never played with a persimmon wood.

I suppose I can rephrase it: If you never aged a day over 25, do you feel that today's club technology gives you an advantage in the game over the clubs you had 20-40 years ago?

Is that difficult to say with absolute fact? Definitely! That's why the opinion is important to me.

The very reason I didn't bring the ball into the question is because you can't avoid changing into newer ball tech. Unless you go scouring ebay for old balls, eventually you'll be forced to buy balls from a retailer, and they're selling the latest.
Click to expand...

i'm not attacking the question, just engaging. apologies if it came off the wrong way.

you are asking about gains/improvements, though. that doesn't seem to be an opinion question to me. maybe i'm just not thinking about it the right way.

there are fun videos out there of tour pros doing the same thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXy6LgSvfO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2STQwqLvcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcwVsnNYKIU
 
pmm21 said:
I think you're taking to cynical of an approach here. I'm looking for opinions, not statistical analysis. I think everyone knows that aging can play a big role in the game of golf, but my not bringing it into the OP does not invalidate my curiosity. I want to know if people who actually played with the old tech believe the new tech is substantially better. I have no way to gauge it, as I have never played with a persimmon wood.

I suppose I can rephrase it: If you never aged a day over 25, do you feel that today's club technology gives you an advantage in the game over the clubs you had 20-40 years ago?

Is that difficult to say with absolute fact? Definitely! That's why the opinion is important to me.

The very reason I didn't bring the ball into the question is because you can't avoid changing into newer ball tech. Unless you go scouring ebay for old balls, eventually you'll be forced to buy balls from a retailer, and they're selling the latest.
Click to expand...

I would love to turn the clock back 30 years and see how far I could have hit the modern ball and driver off the tee. Today I was on the simulator and took several swings with the Trackman that our pro had out at the adjacent bay for a lesson. I was averaging 255ish carry and 270 overall distance at almost age 54. Watching my 21 year old son, who is my same height but not nearly as good a golfer, I would guess like him, I could easily carry the the ball 285+ yards on a good strike when I was his age with todays equipment.

I can also say that I’ve played 10 rounds with Persimmon woods in the last decade and they are on average about 15-20 yards shorter off the tee than my current Epic SZ. If I have one of the old balata balls I’m guessing the overall distance would be 30+ yards shorter. I make those 300 yards drives that Nicklaus was routinely busting out 40 years ago very impressive indeed. I believe DLIII lead the tour his rookie year in 1986 while averaging 287 yards driving distance with a persimmon driver and balata ball. He would have easily been up in that 315 range today.
 
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McLovin said:
i'm not attacking the question, just engaging. apologies if it came off the wrong way.

you are asking about gains/improvements, though. that doesn't seem to be an opinion question to me. maybe i'm just not thinking about it the right way.

there are fun videos out there of tour pros doing the same thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXy6LgSvfO0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2STQwqLvcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcwVsnNYKIU
Click to expand...


Those videos are definitely fun.

I remember seeing one with Mark Crossfield a few years ago. I'm more curious about people who have greater room to improve. Not so much the guy who might go from .5 to scratch. The whole idea behind this thread has more to do with R&D, marketing, and pricing...
 
I started playing about 30 years ago. My first irons were a set of clone Ping Eyes. My woods were laminate Walter Hagen. I learned to play with those but got a big improvement in my scores when I picked up some demo Titleist gold DCIs and Pro-Trajectory driver and 3 wood. I played blacks DCIs with graphite shafts for almost 20 years that included my very best golf. I used the 1 iron as much as I did the PT driver, with better success. My 712 AP1s are more forgiving than those but my length is pretty much the same, even with the stronger lofts of the AP1s, especially 7-PW. The first newish driver I bought was a Titleist 975 that I hit better (controlling flight and hitting draws/fades when needed (mostly)) and longer than I hit the Epic now. That is a factor of playing more and not having older parts that have had surgery and a fusion. The Epic is much more forgiving and I don't lose as much with a slightly off strike as I did with the 975 then the 983. My biggest distance jump with the driver was going to the Titleist 905 with a Speeder shaft when I picked up a solid 10-15 yards and could get another 15-20 if I stepped on it.

The new clubs have let me get by with less clubhead speed and are more forgiving. I think the ball also plays a big part of that. The engineering and technology changes of the ball are huge. If I had the speed I had 15 years ago and the unbeat up body, I'd like to think I'd be a much better golfer with the new equipment.
 
mpeterson said:
I learned on actual wooden woods, growing up with my dad - metalwoods were introduced right around when I started playing the game, but we didn't have a ton of money growing up so I was playing with hand-me-downs.

On the iron side, I could go back to some of the cavity backs I played and probably put up similar scores - I think playing with the players cavity for a while last year showed me that. However, going back to a more forgiving iron in the CF19 reminds me that you can now have the best of both worlds with looks and forgiveness these days, and that's a big thing.
Click to expand...

Really similar answer for me (probably not surprisingly because Matt and I are about the same age). With woods, there's no comparison. If I had to play with the steel-shafted persimmon woods I used until I was in high school, I bet I'd easily add 5-10 strokes in any given round. If I had to play with the Titleist DTR irons I played until I was 30, I could probably still shoot a pretty good score. The biggest difference for me would probably be that the DTRs would be a good club or more shorter than my current irons. That's still a big improvement in the irons that certainly helps my game, but it's not nearly as dramatic as in the woods.
 
pmm21 said:
I'm sorry I'm not down in SA. I would nag you to let me try one or two of those woods!
Click to expand...

You should check The Persimmon Society on FB if you're interested in the older clubs...
 
I started playing as a kid in the mid to late 1950's so I played well over 20-25 years with "wood" woods. Center face contact, literally hitting the ball on the "screws", was paramount. There really was nothing called forgiveness. As we progress to today I am able to swing faster and shots a little high or low on the face, out on the toe or toward the heel go just about the same distance. I am definitely longer off the tee today than I was in my 30's!

Irons were exclusively steel shafts until around 1970 but original graphite shafts weren't considered very good, too many variables from one shaft to the next as manufacturing wan't as precise as it is today. I can't remember when I switched to graphite for the first time but, again, the shaft technology and what manufacturers are able to do with multi-piece irons in terms of weighting and forgiveness have made all the difference in the world in my game. Again, I'm as long or longer than ever with the irons, I see better trajectory, more forgiveness, and I'm less weary at the end of the round despite being in my 70's having played lighter shafts.
 
Dinosaur here. Though I never played featherys. They were phased out by gutta perchas in the late 1800s (didn't play those either). I started back in the early 70s when woods were woods. Shafts were made of steel, and golf balls were wound and it was easy to put a 'smile' on them.

Equipment has improved dramatically in these areas. IMO in this order of importance/significance.

1-Balls. They fly a lot farther, are more durable and consistent.
2-Driver & Fairway metalheads. So much easier to hit (bigger sweet spot), easier to get in the air, go farther.
3-Shafts. Much overlooked, but they provide as much improvement in the distance as the heads above and account for most of the improvements in irons.
4-Irons. There was no category called game improvement or super game improvement, and players irons are simply more consistent and even they are more forgiving.
5-Putters. Mostly they have helped better players. Let's face it, if you aren't a good putter, the putter isn't the thing that is going to help you much.
6-Wedges. These have improved the least. In part because of the rollback on grooves and other limitations in the rules. The variety of lofts, bounce, and grinds have yielded some benefits.

Having said that there are tours and clubs that still play a couple of categories of hickory equipment. Usually, they use modern balls due to the difficulty at sourcing the older style balls. I know several skilled players with this equipment that play modern courses with about 6 strokes more than when playing modern equipment.
 
I started in the early/ mid 70's with Jack Nicklaus Golden Bear blades and laminated woods.A miss hit then was real short and usually a big slice.The balls were balata that cut easily on thin shots or "rock flights".I have never had a lot of disposable income to buy new clubs on a whim.I still buy year old models new or mint from Global Golf or Callaway preowned.
The new drivers and irons have helped me from losing a ton of distance as I have gotten older(67) and have so much better forgiveness. A bad driver swing now gives me a fade instead of an out of bounds slice from the old days.I would have loved to have had some of todays tech back in my younger ,high swingspeed days. I still rake the orig.Great Big Bertha or Taylormade Bubble Burner drivers out about once a year and hit them a few times when the course isn't busy. The small head does make me concentrate on a making a smooth swing .

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tahoebum said:
I started at age 13 in 1978,... My first set was my mom's old Wilson Patty Berg signatures.
Click to expand...

Awesome a fellow Patty Berg signature graduate!!!

I don't think the decades of changes in clubs and balls have made me a better player the technology made it much easier to play (with positive results/shots) and enjoy the game. It was work to have a swing that would carry a 3 iron 210 or a persimmon driver 250 now 40 years older and mph slower with a swing path that impacts all over a 2 inch face I can have similar results without practicing for hours or playing 90 holes a week.
 
My first "real" set of clubs were forged 1961 W/S Dynapower irons, 2-9, and three Top Flite persimmon woods. I've tried to keep relatively current with all the golf equipment advances, and today would be hard pressed to play those original clubs! The head on the Top Flite driver was barely bigger than today's hybrids, and the face of the irons was slightly larger than the golf ball and had ZERO forgiveness!
 
My first set was a set given to me. Ben Sayers. I have no idea what material the shafts were, but they had this coating on them to make them look like wood. The club faces had dots on them rather than grooves. I don’t remember a huge difference going from persimmon woods to metal ones as the metal woods were part of a set (slazenger sb eurostar) and were tiny. The first proper metal wood I bought was a Taylor Made bubble shaft. It was so long ago, I don’t remember how it affected my game LOL


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