We've launched the new forums! Read more here

Questions for Tour Van reps

SuperStroke
Shakey said:
Awesome to hear a tour van guy's take. Sorry your thread got ate up with the other stuff.
Click to expand...

don't be sorry. it's an interesting discussion and one that I think is beneficial to all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Desmond said:
One benefit, I believe, is consistency within an iron set.

I think a similar benefit is with woods, hybrids -- as to performance. It's been a while since I've read about this subject. With better graphite quality, I've heard less of Pure and Spine/Flo with high quality OEM shafts.
Click to expand...

im good with what it's supposed to do conceptually, but was asking for his personal experience since he has done it and won't go back. I haven't done it and don't know anyone or haven't played with anyone who has gone from not doing it to doing to see what their differences were. So this has my curiosity.
 
emart2173 said:
im good with what it's supposed to do conceptually, but was asking for his personal experience since he has done it and won't go back. I haven't done it and don't know anyone or haven't played with anyone who has gone from not doing it to doing to see what their differences were. So this has my curiosity.
Click to expand...

I have some PUREd gear and some not PUREd gear. I can't tell a difference. I don't recall ever having anything spined and/or FLOd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Great thread Chris, thanks for the inside look.
 
Pretty cool that he hand grinds Rickie's wedges without any template or guide. Really brings to light just how much of an art some of this stuff really is. Its not all about numbers and specs. Thanks for the insight.
 
Great info, sounds like a fun day. Quick (novice) question on the hijacked topic; Is Pure/Flo the same as frequency??
 
emart2173 said:
I haven't done it and probably wouldn't drop the cash on it either. out of curiosity what impacts/improvements have you seen with getting your shafts pured, spined/flo'd?
Click to expand...
A flo'd shaft oscillates flat towards the target, upon impact there's less vibration and result in a much more solid feel, finally the center strikes are more common from swing to swing.

From a gear stand point, if you've seen how a stock shaft oscillate compared to a flo'd one, it would make me wonder if you still think there's no difference, that's if you've seen what happens when a shaft is not aligned in it's spine.

If you imagine a cricket bat and its shape is how the spine of the shaft is oriented, there's a stiff side along the edge while the flex side is the broad side, the lack of orientation basically is saying it doesn't matter which direction the bat is facing the flex of the bat would be exactly the same. Call me crazy, I prefer my shaft to flex towards target.
 
TeedUpThoughts said:
Great info, sounds like a fun day. Quick (novice) question on the hijacked topic; Is Pure/Flo the same as frequency??
Click to expand...
Short answer is No. One is a process to orientate the shaft, the other is the physical property of the shaft derived based on it's make up, stiffness of butt/mid/tip etc.
 
Plin said:
A flo'd shaft oscillates flat towards the target, upon impact there's less vibration and result in a much more solid feel, finally the center strikes are more common from swing to swing.

From a gear stand point, if you've seen how a stock shaft oscillate compared to a flo'd one, it would make me wonder if you still think there's no difference, that's if you've seen what happens when a shaft is not aligned in it's spine.

If you imagine a cricket bat and its shape is how the spine of the shaft is oriented, there's a stiff side along the edge while the flex side is the broad side, the lack of orientation basically is saying it doesn't matter which direction the bat is facing the flex of the bat would be exactly the same. Call me crazy, I prefer my shaft to flex towards target.
Click to expand...
Again a very techicnal (but good) description of how it works. I think Emart and a few of us for that matter, are looking for real world results that shows it improves your game. For example have you hit a flo'd irons shaft against a non flo'd of the same specs and seen that has a certain amount of less dispersion. Looking for something that can be measured in results, not just seen on a machine. For the record, I've seen that as well (as I went through the process about 10 years ago with one of Wishons' top fitters) but I didn't see any better shot dispersion between the flo'd and the non flo'd shaft when we compared my numbers on the LM. So I naturally didn't pay for them to be flo'd.
 
I had a set built by a Component club builder and he flo'ed the set, it was very interesting to watch and there was a definite difference to the eye with the way the laser moved till he found the flat line. These were C Taper Stiff flex that he also cpm'ed to a spec for me (basically soft stepped them). These were the most consistent clubs I had ever had, but they were also pure MB clubheads and the combination after 6 months caused me great wrist and elbow pain. (not the clubheads, the shafts)

Then I joined THP and never looked back, buying fit but from an OEM ever since. If it were to be offered free of charge like he did it I would have it done for sure, just for the sake of "why not" it sure seemed to make those clubs work well.
 
CAA_Beat said:
Again a very techicnal (but good) description of how it works. I think Emart and a few of us for that matter, are looking for real world results that shows it improves your game. For example have you hit a flo'd irons shaft against a non flo'd of the same specs and seen that has a certain amount of less dispersion. Looking for something that can be measured in results, not just seen on a machine. For the record, I've seen that as well (as I went through the process about 10 years ago with one of Wishons' top fitters) but I didn't see any better shot dispersion between the flo'd and the non flo'd shaft when we compared my numbers on the LM. So I naturally didn't pay for them to be flo'd.
Click to expand...

Real world results would be a much more consistent strike between back to back swings. I can provide a video of a laser oscillation of a shaft to demonstrate just what it looks like for those interested. If we delve into whether or not a player "notices" the difference, then we might be going down a slippery slope, just because you don't necessarily notice because of lack of consistency in the player's strikes, it doesn't mean the club isn't consistent.
 
Plin said:
Real world results would be a much more consistent strike between back to back swings. I can provide a video of a laser oscillation of a shaft to demonstrate just what it looks like for those interested. If we delve into whether or not a player "notices" the difference, then we might be going down a slippery slope, just because you don't necessarily notice because of lack of consistency in the player's strikes, it doesn't mean the club isn't consistent.
Click to expand...

this pretty much sums it up. Even with the use of the technology ones strikes haven't improved in consistency so paying the money to have technology applied to a set of clubs or a driver, etc doesn't provide a benefit to the avg golfer. So if professional golfers aren't using it then there is no advantage for the inconsistent avg golfer to spend the money for it and can instead put that money towards an upgraded shaft if that's what fits better or towards another purchase.
 
emart2173 said:
this pretty much sums it up. Even with the use of the technology ones strikes haven't improved in consistency so paying the money to have technology applied to a set of clubs or a driver, etc doesn't provide a benefit to the avg golfer. So if professional golfers aren't using it then there is no advantage for the inconsistent avg golfer to spend the money for it and can instead put that money towards an upgraded shaft if that's what fits better or towards another purchase.
Click to expand...
I doubt that professionals aren't using it. And this is precisely what I wanted to bring to attention, if you had access to more club fitters I highly doubt they would all say it is unnecessary.

And I've already said it improves feel and center of strike, but if a golfer can't hit a ball, no amount of technology can fix that.

Regardless of merit, if you decided it does or doesn't do what is said, it would be enough to negate pretty much every piece of equipment and technology out there.

I'm not alone in believing in it, and if you don't think it works, and it doesn't even warrant a try, then there's not much to go on, as with everything else, it's up to the golfer. However, ones personal preference does not dictate the efficacy of the process being discussed.

Sent from my ONE A2005 using Tapatalk
 
Plin said:
I doubt that professionals aren't using it.
Click to expand...

Interesting.
I guess that would depend on how many. I guess professionals being plural at least means more than one, and yes more than one are using it.
 
c.a.eleric said:
reps from true temper, aldila, fourteen golf, lamkin, mitsubishi rayon, and kbs all came in the van while we were hanging out. everybody is there to help each other out. it's obviously about networking, but it's also about informing the builders. while we were in there, a web.com player called ben and said he was struggling with his equipment. ben talked to him about what he wasn't liking and what he wanted to change, then he started pulling different shafts to make something for him. ben leans on the knowledge of the shaft reps to help make those kind of changes.
Click to expand...

i'm quoting this because while yesterday was a fantastic experience, i think today topped it. this player (chris) drove down to orlando today to work with ben. but he's obviously not in the field at api, so my buddy offered up his club's course as the outdoor fitting area. ben told my friend to invite me so i could watch them work together. i dropped what i was doing and headed to the course.

chris arrived on time, but ben was running late so we chatted for awhile. super nice kid, pretty new to cobra. he warmed up on the range, and omg his golf swing was gorgeous. he wanted to work with ben because in his words he almost threw his lob wedge in the lake at a monday qualifer yesterday after laying the sod over it and bogeying a hole he should have birdied. and oh by the way he missed the playoff by 2 shots, so that 2-shot swing cost him money. he was also blocking his driver pretty badly.

ben rolled up with brand new wedges, ground to help chris with the miss he was concerned about and custom-stamped with a bunch of stuff about chris. so awesome. he also had a half dozen driver heads, probably 15 shafts, and his trackman.

at the range chris hit pitches and full swings with the new wedges, and could not miss. ben absolutely nailed it.

then we went to hole 9 and set up shop to test the drivers. right off the bat, chris was missing exactly like he said. low spin blocks to the right. ben had a few different ltd heads, and a few different f-6+ heads. all were weighted differently, with information written on the heads. he had 3-4 mitsubishi rayon tensei shafts, 5-6 tour ad-di orange and black shafts, 3 fujikura pro tour spec shafts, 1 aldila tour blue 65, and 3 aldila rogue silvers (i didn't pick them up to check the msi rating).

by the end of the session, chris was hammering the drivers with consistent carry in the 285-290 range, total 305-315, with dispersion less than 15 yards. launch was actually a little inconsistent, but ben got him in the 11-12* range and 2,400-2,900 spin. ben removed the weight all together from the f-6+, and that was the absolute best sounding driver i've ever heard. chris' numbers were not that dissimilar between the two heads so he took both, but he could not miss with the tour blue. ben gave him two specific heads, the tour blue, and one of the tensei shafts.

then he hit his ltd 3w and baffler 5w. his carry with the ltd was 265, and his baffler 5w it was 245. just beautiful to watch. but we ran out of daylight before he could do much more testing with the wedges, but the little he did it was pretty obvious that the wedges were perfect.

getting to watch a master at his craft, fit a tour player was truly special. watching the effects of the subtle tweaks, the changes in shape, trajectory and dispersion with different shafts, just so cool.

again, thanks for reading. this has been an amazing 2 days.
 
I will post a video of shafts under flex load in a roller bearing spine finder, that also reads the flex while the shaft is loaded. You will be amazed at the flex change simply by rotating the shaft.

IMO: Once you see this you will know its a BIG DEAL. Some shafts have very dominant spines, some not so much. generally 3-4 iron shafts out of 8 will have dominant spines. That is why you have some irons in your bag that are your friends, and some you don't get along with, and perhaps some that are lasers as the spine was 'randomly' set to a orientation that plays well. Generally I may re-set a shaft 2-3 times to get the flights to my liking, or ditch the shaft and get another. Back in the day I would order 5+ sets of rifle fcm shafts, hand pick the ones I liked and send the rest back. Today they won't take them back in most orders. Identification of a good shaft and it orientation placement is the factor that still very few today know about.This is the true science to fitting, and it takes professionals to do it right. I have been spining 20+ years and learn't from the founder. My LM numbers show proof I have something good between my hands and the head

It would kill OEM profits to cpm, sort, spine, Flo shafts for install, so they deny there is a factor in the first place.
 
Last edited:
c.a.eleric said:
a few highlights from dinner last night.

only one of the tour van guys came, the other wanted to stay in his hotel room and crush a pizza by himself haha!

the gentleman who let me assault him with questions was ben schomin, pro tour services manager for cobra. we spent some time in the van yesterday watching him do his thing while reps from several companies were in and out, as well as some of the early bird staffers. he was stamping wedges for jesper parnevik and telling me stories of the inside jokes behind the stamping. then he was building, machining and grinding new wedges for rickie fowler. it was AMAZING to hear him talk about how he gets the weighting just right, and how he grinds off certain parts of the head to make it visually look the rickie wants it to. no molds, just a few notes and a lot of one-on-one sessions and ben has it dialed in his mind's eye. pretty amazing. he was also gushing over the space port in the ltd because it made hot-melting so much easier.

reps from true temper, aldila, fourteen golf, lamkin, mitsubishi rayon, and kbs all came in the van while we were hanging out. everybody is there to help each other out. it's obviously about networking, but it's also about informing the builders. while we were in there, a web.com player called ben and said he was struggling with his equipment. ben talked to him about what he wasn't liking and what he wanted to change, then he started pulling different shafts to make something for him. ben leans on the knowledge of the shaft reps to help make those kind of changes.

his days are long. start at 7am, finishing around 8pm, on your feet all day holed up in the van. when he's not building, he has other tour-related responsibilities. he obviously loves his job, but i could never do it. there is no break, no let-up, just constant motion.

i asked him about other oem gear and whether they're doing anything he kinda wishes cobra had thought of first. he said no, cobra is right where they want to be making exactly what they want to be making. he said fea, cad and 3d printing have revolutionized product development. and with product development, he said these days engineers start with sound design, then go to aesthetics, then go to physics. he said cobra was putting out some great products (he specifically mentioned the lv4) that were longer and more forgiving than anything out there, but nobody was buying them because the sound was bad. this has obviously been discussed ad nauseum, but to hear that the engineers put the physics so far down the list was very interesting.

he said PUREing isn't necessary unless you have a very high swing speed, and even then he sees no reason to do it. he mentioned true temper as having the best qc and tightest tolerances of all of the shaft companies. i won't say who he said has the worst, but i have heard it about this company before.

we didn't talk much about guys tinkering. and he said it's pretty rare that they will change much gear for a particular course unless it's a major.

he spoke very highly of all the staffers, even poulter (former staffer). he said he always got along very well with poulter, and his image in the media isn't who he is. he said he worked with john daly for awhile as well, and had very nice things to say about him.

he was pretty excited about the new baffler. i got to see rickie's baffler 5w, and it's beautiful. he said he built a few different versions first, and rickie gave him feedback along the way.

along the way he shared some things that were very candid that will stay at dinner. after spending time watching guys on the range, spending time talking with reps in the van and on the putting green, my biggest takeaway is that it's not a life i am at all interested in. so much travel, and such a grind.

if you made it this far, thanks for reading!
Click to expand...

Awesome info. I trust guys who get paid to do this stuff


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
something interesting from yesterday. my buddy who loves golf but isn't a nerd about like I am asked Ben what the ideal numbers were that he wanted to see from Chris while they were doing the driver fitting. I chimed in with "17 17." they almost simultaneously said "no. that's bullsh1t marketing." mouth shut. haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Questions for Tour Van reps

c.a.eleric said:
something interesting from yesterday. my buddy who loves golf but isn't a nerd about like I am asked Ben what the ideal numbers were that he wanted to see from Chris while they were doing the driver fitting. I chimed in with "17 17." they almost simultaneously said "no. that's bullsh1t marketing." mouth shut. haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I love information from experts. Flat out love it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
c.a.eleric said:
i'm quoting this because while yesterday was a fantastic experience, i think today topped it. this player (chris) drove down to orlando today to work with ben. but he's obviously not in the field at api, so my buddy offered up his club's course as the outdoor fitting area. ben told my friend to invite me so i could watch them work together. i dropped what i was doing and headed to the course.

chris arrived on time, but ben was running late so we chatted for awhile. super nice kid, pretty new to cobra. he warmed up on the range, and omg his golf swing was gorgeous. he wanted to work with ben because in his words he almost threw his lob wedge in the lake at a monday qualifer yesterday after laying the sod over it and bogeying a hole he should have birdied. and oh by the way he missed the playoff by 2 shots, so that 2-shot swing cost him money. he was also blocking his driver pretty badly.

ben rolled up with brand new wedges, ground to help chris with the miss he was concerned about and custom-stamped with a bunch of stuff about chris. so awesome. he also had a half dozen driver heads, probably 15 shafts, and his trackman.

at the range chris hit pitches and full swings with the new wedges, and could not miss. ben absolutely nailed it.

then we went to hole 9 and set up shop to test the drivers. right off the bat, chris was missing exactly like he said. low spin blocks to the right. ben had a few different ltd heads, and a few different f-6+ heads. all were weighted differently, with information written on the heads. he had 3-4 mitsubishi rayon tensei shafts, 5-6 tour ad-di orange and black shafts, 3 fujikura pro tour spec shafts, 1 aldila tour blue 65, and 3 aldila rogue silvers (i didn't pick them up to check the msi rating).

by the end of the session, chris was hammering the drivers with consistent carry in the 285-290 range, total 305-315, with dispersion less than 15 yards. launch was actually a little inconsistent, but ben got him in the 11-12* range and 2,400-2,900 spin. ben removed the weight all together from the f-6+, and that was the absolute best sounding driver i've ever heard. chris' numbers were not that dissimilar between the two heads so he took both, but he could not miss with the tour blue. ben gave him two specific heads, the tour blue, and one of the tensei shafts.

then he hit his ltd 3w and baffler 5w. his carry with the ltd was 265, and his baffler 5w it was 245. just beautiful to watch. but we ran out of daylight before he could do much more testing with the wedges, but the little he did it was pretty obvious that the wedges were perfect.

getting to watch a master at his craft, fit a tour player was truly special. watching the effects of the subtle tweaks, the changes in shape, trajectory and dispersion with different shafts, just so cool.

again, thanks for reading. this has been an amazing 2 days.
Click to expand...
Fantastic stuff...Thanks so much for sharing the experience.
 
c.a.eleric said:
i'm quoting this because while yesterday was a fantastic experience, i think today topped it. this player (chris) drove down to orlando today to work with ben. but he's obviously not in the field at api, so my buddy offered up his club's course as the outdoor fitting area. ben told my friend to invite me so i could watch them work together. i dropped what i was doing and headed to the course.

chris arrived on time, but ben was running late so we chatted for awhile. super nice kid, pretty new to cobra. he warmed up on the range, and omg his golf swing was gorgeous. he wanted to work with ben because in his words he almost threw his lob wedge in the lake at a monday qualifer yesterday after laying the sod over it and bogeying a hole he should have birdied. and oh by the way he missed the playoff by 2 shots, so that 2-shot swing cost him money. he was also blocking his driver pretty badly.

ben rolled up with brand new wedges, ground to help chris with the miss he was concerned about and custom-stamped with a bunch of stuff about chris. so awesome. he also had a half dozen driver heads, probably 15 shafts, and his trackman.

at the range chris hit pitches and full swings with the new wedges, and could not miss. ben absolutely nailed it.

then we went to hole 9 and set up shop to test the drivers. right off the bat, chris was missing exactly like he said. low spin blocks to the right. ben had a few different ltd heads, and a few different f-6+ heads. all were weighted differently, with information written on the heads. he had 3-4 mitsubishi rayon tensei shafts, 5-6 tour ad-di orange and black shafts, 3 fujikura pro tour spec shafts, 1 aldila tour blue 65, and 3 aldila rogue silvers (i didn't pick them up to check the msi rating).

by the end of the session, chris was hammering the drivers with consistent carry in the 285-290 range, total 305-315, with dispersion less than 15 yards. launch was actually a little inconsistent, but ben got him in the 11-12* range and 2,400-2,900 spin. ben removed the weight all together from the f-6+, and that was the absolute best sounding driver i've ever heard. chris' numbers were not that dissimilar between the two heads so he took both, but he could not miss with the tour blue. ben gave him two specific heads, the tour blue, and one of the tensei shafts.

then he hit his ltd 3w and baffler 5w. his carry with the ltd was 265, and his baffler 5w it was 245. just beautiful to watch. but we ran out of daylight before he could do much more testing with the wedges, but the little he did it was pretty obvious that the wedges were perfect.

getting to watch a master at his craft, fit a tour player was truly special. watching the effects of the subtle tweaks, the changes in shape, trajectory and dispersion with different shafts, just so cool.

again, thanks for reading. this has been an amazing 2 days.
Click to expand...

What a great experience to read through! Thanks for sharing!!!
 
Great read and I'm sure a wonderful experience. Thanks for sharing.
 
Really great read. Thanks for sharing your awesome experience!
 
Dynamic Gold S300 & Fcm 6.0 shaft spines that change flex and flight characteristics

 
c.a.eleric said:
i'm quoting this because while yesterday was a fantastic experience, i think today topped it. this player (chris) drove down to orlando today to work with ben. but he's obviously not in the field at api, so my buddy offered up his club's course as the outdoor fitting area. ben told my friend to invite me so i could watch them work together. i dropped what i was doing and headed to the course.

chris arrived on time, but ben was running late so we chatted for awhile. super nice kid, pretty new to cobra. he warmed up on the range, and omg his golf swing was gorgeous. he wanted to work with ben because in his words he almost threw his lob wedge in the lake at a monday qualifer yesterday after laying the sod over it and bogeying a hole he should have birdied. and oh by the way he missed the playoff by 2 shots, so that 2-shot swing cost him money. he was also blocking his driver pretty badly.

ben rolled up with brand new wedges, ground to help chris with the miss he was concerned about and custom-stamped with a bunch of stuff about chris. so awesome. he also had a half dozen driver heads, probably 15 shafts, and his trackman.

at the range chris hit pitches and full swings with the new wedges, and could not miss. ben absolutely nailed it.

then we went to hole 9 and set up shop to test the drivers. right off the bat, chris was missing exactly like he said. low spin blocks to the right. ben had a few different ltd heads, and a few different f-6+ heads. all were weighted differently, with information written on the heads. he had 3-4 mitsubishi rayon tensei shafts, 5-6 tour ad-di orange and black shafts, 3 fujikura pro tour spec shafts, 1 aldila tour blue 65, and 3 aldila rogue silvers (i didn't pick them up to check the msi rating).

by the end of the session, chris was hammering the drivers with consistent carry in the 285-290 range, total 305-315, with dispersion less than 15 yards. launch was actually a little inconsistent, but ben got him in the 11-12* range and 2,400-2,900 spin. ben removed the weight all together from the f-6+, and that was the absolute best sounding driver i've ever heard. chris' numbers were not that dissimilar between the two heads so he took both, but he could not miss with the tour blue. ben gave him two specific heads, the tour blue, and one of the tensei shafts.

then he hit his ltd 3w and baffler 5w. his carry with the ltd was 265, and his baffler 5w it was 245. just beautiful to watch. but we ran out of daylight before he could do much more testing with the wedges, but the little he did it was pretty obvious that the wedges were perfect.

getting to watch a master at his craft, fit a tour player was truly special. watching the effects of the subtle tweaks, the changes in shape, trajectory and dispersion with different shafts, just so cool.

again, thanks for reading. this has been an amazing 2 days.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much my man! Made my day!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top