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Thread: Flagstick - Science says you should pull it 99.9% of the time.

  1. #76
    Major Champion radiman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollin View Post
    you asků.How is it flawed? I think ive given very sound example in a few posts as for how I feel its very flawed. You may not agree with them.
    But...He went on and found a one sided sweat spot to fulfill a desired bias result he wanted. And then tries to appeal to our common sense with fancy (what he calls) science which is really only based on his opinion.
    I thought that leaving the flag in was so beneficial based on these other studies that you find so sound, that there shouldn't be a sweet spot where the ball won't go in.

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  3. #77
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    My foursome is leaving the flag in on long putts, but within 10-15 feet we are pulling it. Don't care about the science behind it, it just looks better to my eye with the flag out on putts I feel like I have a chance to make. Everyone is in agreement and we are not any slower or faster because of it. Playing with strangers I will do what the everyone else wants.
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  5. #78
    Major Champion DonJuan's Avatar
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    Those were the fastest 32" putts I have ever seen. That's probably the largest flaw.

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  6. #79
    "Just playin golf pally" rollin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by radiman View Post
    I thought that leaving the flag in was so beneficial based on these other studies that you find so sound, that there shouldn't be a sweet spot where the ball won't go in.

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    The Pelz study which I find the most telling for the reasons given is still never always all the time 100%. And it doesn't state that its 100%. It simply states that it will help more than hurt. That only means that it will help you more times than it will hurt you. So there are still times it will hurt. But there are more times that it will help. That's part of what imo makes it an unbias honest study with very believable results. Not to mention the huge sample size and all the different scenarios he incorporated. The difference I never said was overwhelmingly positive but simply that it was a positive. he only states that (based on the results) it would help more than not.

    But this latest so called "science" experiment? well , I have plenty posts and novels written here on what I feel about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DataDude View Post
    Honestly the best thing is we have options. If I have a short putt and the pin is leaning towards me I will pull it because I can. If I have a long downhill putt I will leave it in because having a chance to hit something gives me a better chance to make the putt or end up close. Options should make for better scores if we think our way through them.
    These are examples of factors the linked study did not take into account. It's easy to add to this list. For example, on short putts with a break, it's quite common for skilled putters to hit the putt harder to take out the break. Speaking of break, the study did not look at breaking putts at all, and yes that does matter. You'd expect fewer lip-outs on the high side and more on the low side. But better putters tend to miss on the high side.

    It won't be long before we have actual data from the major tours. I'm looking forward to that.
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  8. #81
    "Just playin golf pally" rollin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftshot View Post
    These are examples of factors the linked study did not take into account. It's easy to add to this list. For example, on short putts with a break, it's quite common for skilled putters to hit the putt harder to take out the break. Speaking of break, the study did not look at breaking putts at all, and yes that does matter. You'd expect fewer lip-outs on the high side and more on the low side. But better putters tend to miss on the high side.

    It won't be long before we have actual data from the major tours. I'm looking forward to that.
    I dont think data from the tour would be of any real value at the current time. Firstly there is not all that much of it going on. It would also take a large body of work imo to make any determoinations from it. And then we have to consider any given player who is doing it, may simply have a little better or little worse season putting than they had last year even if without the rule change. All that on top of the difference being one of fairly minimal anyway so I just don't think it will really add up quite enough to be all that telling just yet. But I could be wrong about that.
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    We leave it in as it speeds up play.

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    Major Champion Wake's Avatar
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    Since everyone seems to love anecdotal evidence.

    I've putted with the flag in for nearly every round this year, and have felt like I've made alot more putts in thay 5-12 foot range than I have at any point in the past. Today one in our group wanted it out, so we pulled it on nearly every green, and I sank virtually no putts over 4 feet. I didn't putt poorly, didn't have a 3 putt. I just burned edges and just missed all day.

    So maybe this means nothing, just an off day. I don't think the actual pin makes a big difference in either direction unless the ball is really moving. But I think it gives me multiple extra aim points, which seems to really help.
    Last edited by Wake; 04-22-2019 at 08:02 PM.
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  12. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Since everyone seems to love anecdotal evidence.

    I've putted with the flag out for nearly every round now, and have felt like I've made alot more putts in thay 5-12 foot range than I have at any point in the past. Today one in our group wanted it out, so we pulled it on nearly every green, and I sank virtually no putts over 4 feet. I didn't putt poorly, didn't have a 3 putt. I just burned edges and just missed all day.

    So maybe this means nothing, just an off day. I don't think the actual pin makes a big difference in either direction unless the ball is really moving. But I think it gives me multiple extra aim points, which seems to really help.
    Did you mean you putted with the flag in?

    I've been putting with the flag in pretty much full time now that the rule has changed. At first, I would occasionally feel like the flag subconsciously got in the way of aiming at the center of the cup. Almost like I would subconsciously try to "avoid" the pin and miss right or left. Recently that seems to have disappeared. I now find that the pin is helpful in dividing the cup when I'm thinking "right half" or "left half", and also useful as a target when I'm aiming for the the center.
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    Major Champion Wake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by campilobaxter View Post
    Did you mean you putted with the flag in?

    I've been putting with the flag in pretty much full time now that the rule has changed. At first, I would occasionally feel like the flag subconsciously got in the way of aiming at the center of the cup. Almost like I would subconsciously try to "avoid" the pin and miss right or left. Recently that seems to have disappeared. I now find that the pin is helpful in dividing the cup when I'm thinking "right half" or "left half", and also useful as a target when I'm aiming for the the center.
    You are correct, and I have fixed it.

    On short putts I have always felt I putt much better if I pick a very specific point in the cup and aim for it, maybe it's line in the paint of the lip or black mark on the cup itself. Obviously this doesn't work as you get farther from the hole. Before, for me, it was always aim at the right edge, center, left edge, or a vague space between the three. Now I can aim at the right edge, between the edge and the flag, right edge of the pin, center pin, left edge of the pin, between the pin and left edge, and left edge. It just works for me mentally.

    Since leaving it in I've only had one bounce out I thought might possibly have stayed in with no pin, similarly I very very rarely miss a putt with it pulled that grabs enough hole thaylt the pin might have helped. For me it's all mental, not whether I think the pin is sinking putts.
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    One thing that hasn’t been talked about with the pin getting left in by many groups is the increased damage to the lip/edge of the hole from people pulling the ball out of the hole with the flagstick in. Saturday at my home course there were two holes where a section of the lip was pulled up higher than the green surface. In both instances it was easily fixed by tamping it back down with the putter but I think we will see more of this type of damage with the new rule.
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  18. #87
    "Just playin golf pally" rollin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tahoebum View Post
    One thing that hasn’t been talked about with the pin getting left in by many groups is the increased damage to the lip/edge of the hole from people pulling the ball out of the hole with the flagstick in. Saturday at my home course there were two holes where a section of the lip was pulled up higher than the green surface. In both instances it was easily fixed by tamping it back down with the putter but I think we will see more of this type of damage with the new rule.
    but I think removing the pins constantly has always lead to a whole lot of lip damages too. And though not usually the case, its sometimes downright horrible damage. People are constantly banging the poles on the edges. Even people who are generally consciously careful sometimes make mistakes handling the pin. Once people begin to pick out the ball enough times (like anything else we do) most anyone will develop a better ingrained skill for picking out the ball cleanly.
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