Distances From Tees...

cyoung2ty

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I played a course today that I didn't really pay attention to when I first started because I got thrown out onto the course in a hurry to accommodate a group that was playing. I had only played there once before and thought it was a shorter course, so I played from the back tees, which turned out to be 6748 yards. I typically play courses that range from 6100 - 6400 yards (give or take). Because the course was empty behind me, I decided to just play it out.

Several holes were well beyond my comfort zone in terms of distance. That got me to thinking about how others feel about certain distances. I don't usually care how long or short a par 5 is. Most of them are 3 shot holes for me unless it's 500 yards or less and I kill one from the tee.

Par 4

I cringe when I see it listed at anything over 410. Even then, it's gonna take a good drive from me to get me in a comfortable approach range of 170 or less. If I'm going at a hole with anything above a 6 iron, it becomes increasingly likely that I'm either going to yank one into trouble trying to really go at it or I'm going to do something stupid like top it.

I'm comfortable with any par 4 that is between 350 - 380 yards. I don't have to necessarily hit a good drive... I can get away with a 220 yarder and still be within a good range for my approach shot.

I lick my chops at anything 340 or below. This will usually put a 4 iron in my hand from the tee and still ensure that I'm hitting 8 iron or less to the green. If there is little-to-no trouble... it's a green light to try and get it down there to inside a wedge distance where I can give myself a good shot at getting inside 20 feet and leaving a birdie attempt.

Par 3

I sincerely dislike seeing a par 3 play over 180 yards, unless it's downhill. The same thing I mentioned above comes into play for me. If I have a 5 iron or higher in my hand, I get stupid and try to swing harder at it. This will result in a pull... a topped shot into trouble and sometimes even a thin shot that ends up in a spot nobody is intended to play the hole from.

I'm comfortable in the 150 - 175 yard range. Depending on wind and/or elevation changes, that pretty much means I'm hitting a 6, 7 or 8 iron from the tee. In most cases, I can find the green or be within chipping distance. I don't tend to make too many stupid swings with the clubs in my hand.

I get really excited to play anything listed between 120 - 145 yards. That probably gives me anywhere from a full swing pitching wedge to a full swing 8 iron. On those holes, if I make anything more than a par, I leave disappointed. Birdie is a possibility... par is the goal.

So... where are you comfortable? When do you start getting into an attacking mindset? When do you cringe and just hope to limit the bloodshed?
 
I'm about in the same place you are. If a course has one or two par 4 holes that stretch me, I don't worry about it much, as long as they don't include a long forced carry on the second shot. My home course has 2 par 4's on the back 9 that stretch 420 and 430 yards from the blues (about 20 yards longer from the back tees), but only the 18th has any significant trouble to consider. It's possible to cut the dogleg and shorten that one so that the second shot is only 140 - 160, so it becomes manageable. If you try that and put it in the fairway bunker, then a layup to 100 yards or so is almost automatic.

#12 at 430 yards is straightaway, with only some shallow fairway bunkers on the right at 200-240 off the tee to cause a minor concern.

The closest 18 hole course to me has a 430 yard par 4 with a pond dead in front of the green. I'm usually looking at 200 yard carry or more on the second shot there, so I just call it a par 5 and lay up. I have yet to play with anyone who has hit the green in two on that hole (although I did birdie it once by pitching in from 70 yards out). Most don't even try, and for those who have tried it, they're either short in the water or over the back with a difficult pitch to get close to the hole. My buddy says it used to be a par 5, but they eliminated the 2 farthest back tees and put in a much shorter one for the reds, then changed it to a par 4. Anyone who plays it thinks that was a fairly bad move.
 
I'm pretty much with you on everything you said. I'm sure the low-cappers and big hitters will feel differently.
I don't like par 4s over 400 and I'm in trouble if the par 3 requires anything more than a 6 iron.
 
I think it's important for everyone to play from tees they are comfortable with. If only we could get golfers to do so, especially at the resort courses. My comfort zone is 6600-7050. I will play beyond 7000 but only if the fairways are fast.
 
I really like playing a mix. One of my golf leagues mixes up the tees we play each week. This means we play anything from 6800 - 5800 on any given night. It's a 9 hole league and these are 18 hole yardages, but you get the idea.

Over the entire summer I'll play courses anywhere from 5300 -> 7300. Anything over 7000 usually affects my score, but I really enjoy the extra challenge (occasionally).
 
My home course is a desert course at high elevation. Its only real defense is distance, all things being equal. I understand what you're saying in terms of feeling like you need driver in hand 12 or 13 times a round and seeing long par 4's, especially. I'm also aware they're usually the most difficult holes on the course, and that getting a bogey, unless the rest of your round is garbage, isn't going to have a negative impact on a double-digit handicap. When I'm playing a par 4 that clocks in over 420 yards, I really approach it with one of two strategies...If I'm driving the ball well that day, I take my chances with driver off the tee, and if my good striking continues, I can get into a good spot to get a shot at the green from inside that 170 mark where I start to feel pretty comfortable. If I'm not driving the ball well, I leave driver in the bag, hit hybrid or fairway wood off the tee, and play it like a par 5. No matter what, if my drive is errant, I shift into a mindset of looking for the best way to make a 5 on a long par 4.

I think we sometimes get wrapped up in certain stats like GIR and end up feeling like we're doing something wrong, or the course is set up in such a way to make those stats really difficult, and we forget that the point is to get the ball in the hole. Scrambling for par or a long iron and a two putt for par doesn't feel any different to the score card. Sometimes a long par 4 is a chance to hit a short iron to 75 yards, wedge it close, and get par, rather than feeling trapped into hitting a hybrid off the deck for your second because a GIR is how you're "supposed" to play.
 
I normally play between 6100 and 6400 but I'm good going back to 6700 without having to worry about too much although I may score a little higher but beyond the 6700 mark I start pressing to get some distance off the tee.

i don't like having to play more than 1 par 3 in the 195+ range
 
Geography plays a huge roll here. Some areas are all carry, others roll like crazy. Its the biggest reason that I believe personally that its more important aspect to focus on in equipment for this very reason.

To give you an example, 410 in the region I am in now, not a huge deal with tons of roll out.
410 at El Campeon in FL, might as well be a par 5...haha
 
I don't hit the ball far really, but plenty far enough to handle up to about 7k, then is just gets silly. As far as the individual holes I feel it isn't so much the distance but more the green complex designs. That is assuming there aren't huge forced carries off the tee. A 250 yard forced carry is silly as it doesn't really challenge really good golfers but is way too penal for the average golfer. So any course that has those are dumb.

Par 3's - It is all relative really. 17 at sawgrass would be stupid at 170 yards but I love it at 105 for the average person. Double digit caps probably shouldn't play that course but I am getting off point. In general courses should be playable for most people but you know what you are getting into on a course like that.
For me I personally it is all about the run up area. Could care less if the hole is

sorry getting sidetracked at loooooooooool MSU weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

okay back to what I was talking about, could care less if the hole is 200-250 as long as the green is open up front and you can land the ball short and it will run up. I can understand why people wouldn't like it but no big deal, assuming all the 3's aren't like that, my other pet peeve using the same club on all the par 3s.

Par 4's - Anything under 400 is easy enough but I prefer short with hazards and reachable(280-330) to a bunch of boring 360 driver wedge holes. Once the hole goes over 400 I think the green should be open in front, at least part of it with the option of tucking the pin. Par 4's over 450 should be kept to a minimum though.

Par 5's - I love easy 5's for my scorecard but they get silly when they shouldn't be a 5. All the Cleveland guys know what I mean when I say a hole like number 5 at Big Met. That hole has no business being a 5. I think it is 460 and can be stretched to 475 with back hole but it is a joke it is a 5, especially with the speed slot by the 200 yard out marker, An above average drive by me, and I don't hit it all that far I sometimes have an 8 iron in during the summer.
I like my par 5's interesting, if it is shorter then there need to be hazards in front of the green, longer I like my lay up area to have some challenge, cross bunkers or something similar.

Totally lost my point so will just leave the post as a mess and go back to loling at MSU and the state of MI in general
 
I think it's important for everyone to play from tees they are comfortable with. If only we could get golfers to do so, especially at the resort courses. My comfort zone is 6600-7050. I will play beyond 7000 but only if the fairways are fast.

I hear ya! I'm comfortable in the 6100 - 6400 range. I can play up to 6600 without too many problems. Over that usually means I'm going to find some longer par 4 holes that might hurt me.

Honestly, playing under that yardage hurts me too. I feel like I get too aggressive from the tee and put myself in bad positions.

My home course is a desert course at high elevation. Its only real defense is distance, all things being equal. I understand what you're saying in terms of feeling like you need driver in hand 12 or 13 times a round and seeing long par 4's, especially. I'm also aware they're usually the most difficult holes on the course, and that getting a bogey, unless the rest of your round is garbage, isn't going to have a negative impact on a double-digit handicap. When I'm playing a par 4 that clocks in over 420 yards, I really approach it with one of two strategies...If I'm driving the ball well that day, I take my chances with driver off the tee, and if my good striking continues, I can get into a good spot to get a shot at the green from inside that 170 mark where I start to feel pretty comfortable. If I'm not driving the ball well, I leave driver in the bag, hit hybrid or fairway wood off the tee, and play it like a par 5. No matter what, if my drive is errant, I shift into a mindset of looking for the best way to make a 5 on a long par 4.

I think we sometimes get wrapped up in certain stats like GIR and end up feeling like we're doing something wrong, or the course is set up in such a way to make those stats really difficult, and we forget that the point is to get the ball in the hole. Scrambling for par or a long iron and a two putt for par doesn't feel any different to the score card. Sometimes a long par 4 is a chance to hit a short iron to 75 yards, wedge it close, and get par, rather than feeling trapped into hitting a hybrid off the deck for your second because a GIR is how you're "supposed" to play.

More often than not, I'll play to net par. On most holes... a bogey for me is a net par. I still try to make birdies and pars when I can, but... I'm never upset if I walk off with a bogey (unless I was there in regulation and three-putted). I think I need to start employing the lay-up strategy on some of those longer holes to limit the big scores. Fourputt mentioned doing that on the 18th hole he spoke about above. It's far safer than trying to play it like the pros would play it. I need to take that over to my game!
 
Geography plays a huge roll here. Some areas are all carry, others roll like crazy. Its the biggest reason that I believe personally that its more important aspect to focus on in equipment for this very reason.

To give you an example, 410 in the region I am in now, not a huge deal with tons of roll out.
410 at El Campeon in FL, might as well be a par 5...haha

This is what I was trying to get across, I just used 5 times the words and make half the sense.
 
If we watch the pros play a course on TV and we remove distance from the equation, what clubs do we usually see them play on a par 4? It's typically a driver + 9 iron, unless the hole has some kind of special obstacle. That's a 440 yd par 4.

For us amateurs who don't hit 295 yd drives on the average, if we hit a 250 yd drive on that hole, it leaves us hitting a 190 yd club to the green which is typically a hybrid or 4 iron. So about the longest par 4 a person who averages 250 yds should play is about 380 - 400 yds. Someone who averages around 230 yds off the tee with their driver should consider 360 yds. to be the longest par 4 on the course. A 420 yd par 4 for a person who hits 230 yd drives leaves a 3W shot into the green for a GIR.

I'll play the whites on a short course, but mostly the golds (5700). Anything longer than 6000 yds is going to be a very unenjoyable day.
 
I usually just play whatever tees my playing group wants to play, as my struggles are more on/around the greens than anything. If I'm playing by myself, though, I decide based on par 3 lengths.

My 5 iron is the longest non-driver club I hit, and it is only 175 or so on a perfect strike. I try to keep the par 3s in that range.

I did get to hit the new irons I bought today, and they are significantly longer and straighter than my old ones. Hopefully that leads to better par 3 play for me.
 
Around here I like to play yardages in the 6000-6400yd range. Anything more and I start having pretty long approaches.

Like others have said though, geography and roll have a lot to do with it. In Utah, where I was at 4000+ ft elevation and the ground is DRY and rolls like a mofo, I could play comfortably close to 7000yds and not have a problem.

As for hole lengths, any par 4 over 400 and it's just a tough hole. In the mid 300's is my comfort zone. Low 300's I've got options...though sometimes I pick the wrong ones haha. Par 5's under 500 yards, if I hit a good drive I'm typically at least thinking about trying to get there in two (unless there's a ton of trouble around the green).

Oh, and I hate long par 3's too. Anything over 180 is just a tough hole.
 
Good question. Par 5's the yardage doesn't bother me though I do believe a good risk/reward shorter Par 5 is a good design feature. With Par 4's I like to see them under 420, over that I will change they way I play it. We have a 410 Par 4 that generally plays into a southern wind, I will play my second to leave a 30/40 yard chip and make far more pars on that hole by taking that approach On Par 3's I want variety, I can't stand courses where they are all the same yardage. I like when you get at least 3 different yardages, one long, one short and two mid-range.
 
Geography plays a huge roll here. Some areas are all carry, others roll like crazy. Its the biggest reason that I believe personally that its more important aspect to focus on in equipment for this very reason.

To give you an example, 410 in the region I am in now, not a huge deal with tons of roll out.
410 at El Campeon in FL, might as well be a par 5...haha

This is what I was trying to get across, I just used 5 times the words and make half the sense.

Definitely agree with this. Hole layout is a huge factor. A long par 4 hole can be playable even if you have to play a wood on your second if there is not too much trouble. By the same respect, a short par 4 can require a plan which leaves the driver in the bag if a player wants a reasonable chance at par.

The shortest par 4 on my home course from the tees I usually play is only 340, but it's a forced layup because of a lake that fronts the green starting at about 240 off the tee. The typical tee shot here is 200-220 max unless you can comfortably carry the ball 300 yards (and because of a couple of trees, 300 may not be enough). Because the lake margin angles from left to right, the safe distance is only about 190 to the far left, but it goes all the way to 260 on a narrow neck of fairway on the right, but with a grove of trees to mess you up if you take the chance and hit too far right. Only the shortest players I know play driver there, and even then it's a risk because there is a slight slope toward the lake starting at the 150 markers, and here in Colorado, the fairway usually has a lot of roll anyway. I've watched a ball roll 50 yards, ending up in the hazard.
 
I have to be honest and say I HATE dropping below 6400 yards. I still enjoy the game but I like the length to bite back a little bit. That said I enjoy golf from any distance I just prefer it a little longer than most. I for one like getting my butt kicked by a tough and long golf course.
 
The most annoying thing about my home course from last year was the par 3's were 220, 215, 215, then one mid 150's. Worse was one of the 215 holes needed some tree trimming and you had to start the ball at water left of the green and cut it or you risk clipping the branches.
 
All depends on layout to me. I've played courses at 6600yds that seem short for that distance and played 6300yds that felt like 6700. My home courses are 6500yds from the tees we play. I'm with you on par 4s over 410 and par 3's over 185 (both playing pretty level). Par 5's I don't care about yardage, all are 3 shots for me and 2 par 5's at True Blue were 4 shots for me because of the distances hazards were at.
 
Par 3 over 200 yds to me are a joke. All they do is slow play down. Unfortunately given the tees I normally play I see alot of them. Par 4 over 450 are where things start to get hairy for me. I feel like I hit if far enough to play holes of that length, but misses are really penal at that yardage. Par 5 I guess over 600 but I rarely see those. Par 5 length I don't feel is that big of a deal. It may turn the hole into a three shot hole. Wedge game is my strength so it I don't lose a whole lot on 3 shot par 5.

Overall length 6800 and below is what I prefer to play. 6800 to 7100 doesn't bother me too much. Anything over 7100 is dumb IMO. Of course geography plays a big deal when discussing yardages. 6500 yds in one area is completely different in another area.
 
Depends on the daly conditions in our area. Some days it's not an issue, some days it is!
 
I like a good mix of par4 holes. I hate if most are long but also hate if most are short. I want a couple/few longer and a couple/few shorter but most in between. I too think par3's over 200 are ridiculous. I also think 100ish par3's are ridiculous too. I think drivable par 4's are ridiculous unless they offer more integrity than a simple straight hole with no real trouble anywhere.

But total course yardage is often misleading and not always as telling as it seems. For one thing, dog legs can really help to shorten a course vs its total yardage which is calculated following the fairways. But also things like an extra (or a less) par3 and/or par5 can add or minus considerable yardage to a courses total. So can just a couple oddball sized holes. And if you have a combo of any those things it can be very misleading. In my county the shortest of the 5 courses actually has the longest par5 and the 2 longest par4's in the county yet in total yardage is shortest by about 4 to 5 hundred yards. It also has the smallest greens in the county. In the end it plays much harder than its lowest (of the county courses) slope for the bogey golfer indicates. I played a course last year that was the same distance as my munis and played the similar (middle tees) tees at about 6450. But this course I played was most all straight on forward holes and with hardly any dogs it felt it played a lot longer. In one sense a tad more forgiving because of only a few dogs but non the less played longer to negate that fact.

In the end I still want that mix of using short, mid and "some" long" clubs for approaches after a good enough tee shot.
 
I prefer a length where I'm hitting irons into par 3's and 4's.
 
I don't mind the distance, but stay under 7K, prefer to stay around 6500. I just want it to be somewhat challenging so I have to use all of the clubs in my bag. But par 3's over 200 I dislike.
 
For the most part par 3's over 200 are dumb but I do love the old school biarritz style ones but wouldn't want for every course to have one.
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