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Restricting Hip Turn

ntanygd760

ntanygd760

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This topic seems to come up a lot and it seems not everyone agrees. My personal opinion is restricting hip turn just so you can get good separation between hips and shoulders to get more power. If you are restricting hip turn for that reason then I believe you are making a big mistake and costing power not helping it. I think at minimum the hips should turn 45 degrees and the shoulders another 45 degrees beyond that. I have hip flexibility issues so this is always a battle. My shoulder have always been plenty flexible though. If the answer of why you restrict the hips is because of x-factor yada yada yada stop doing it. I believe the dude who came up with the x factor which is the bigger the separation between hips and shoulders the more power you will get has since clarified that while the more separation you have the more power you have it does not apply or mean you should restrict the hips in order to get the large separation.

I tend to have opinions on everything and stick with them until I figure out they are wrong so don't take this thread as an attack on people golf ability or knowledge. It would take years for me to get to a place where I would even ponder the idea of trying to become a teaching pro. All I am now is an avid golfer, luckily I found a site with tons of people that are golf nerds like myself.


So what is your guys opinion on the matter.
 
If you want back issues, stick your butt out and restrict your hip turn.

If you look at PGA Touring Pros on youtube, you will see them straightening their rear leg, more or less, and turning their hips.

Since I've straightened the rear leg in the backswing, rounded the shoulders, and turned the hips, I haven't had back issues.
 
As you get older and lose flexibility, restricting hip turn is almost impossible. I would have almost no powe at all.
 
Desmond said:
If you want back issues, stick your butt out and restrict your hip turn.

If you look at PGA Touring Pros on youtube, you will see them straightening their rear leg, more or less, and turning their hips.

Since I've straightened the rear leg in the backswing, rounded the shoulders, and turned the hips, I haven't had back issues.
Click to expand...

Im going to looking into this. Have back issues now and would love to find a good way to alleviate it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Desmond said:
If you want back issues, stick your butt out and restrict your hip turn.

If you look at PGA Touring Pros on youtube, you will see them straightening their rear leg, more or less, and turning their hips.

Since I've straightened the rear leg in the backswing, rounded the shoulders, and turned the hips, I haven't had back issues.
Click to expand...

This couldn't be further from the truth. All the long ball hitters keep legs flexed and try to keep the belt buckle at the ball while the shoulders turn full. So pros have more flexibility than others and hip turn will vary.

The average golfer that gets too much hip turn in the back swing never clears their hips on the down swing. Quite often stopping the hips and swinging all arms.
 
Tadashi70 said:
This couldn't be further from the truth. All the long ball hitters keep legs flexed and try to keep the belt buckle at the ball while the shoulders turn full. So pros have more flexibility than others and hip turn will vary.
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Except for Bubba.

The average golfer that gets too much hip turn in the back swing never clears their hips on the down swing. Quite often stopping the hips and swinging all arms.
Click to expand...

This sounds like me lately. I will have to pay attention to this.



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There are exception to every rule.
 
Tadashi70 said:
This couldn't be further from the truth. All the long ball hitters keep legs flexed and try to keep the belt buckle at the ball while the shoulders turn full. So pros have more flexibility than others and hip turn will vary.

The average golfer that gets too much hip turn in the back swing never clears their hips on the down swing. Quite often stopping the hips and swinging all arms.
Click to expand...

Disagree, but that's okay ... seen too many pros on youtube, and lots of instruction.

And I said they straighten the rear leg, more or less -- straighten does not mean "lock."
 
funny you just brought this up. Just this past week one day at the range then on a sim one day and in my last round I been turning the hips more than usual on the back swing with the driver and found a little more speed and power like you mention. Recent significant weight loss around the belly has also added to more freedom to do so. But the whole process just feels better to me. Feels more lose and free and fluid. Right, wrong, or indifferent I don't know but whats ever right or wrong anyway and as long as it works I don't care. If it adds to more poor shots than better ones then I guess I could always go back but for now it just feels better and offers a little more for my swing.
 
Desmond said:
Disagree, but that's okay ... seen too many pros on youtube, and lots of instruction.

And I said they straighten the rear leg, more or less -- straighten does not mean "lock."
Click to expand...

The issue is the average player can't do both. And the rear legs locks. The average player has slow hips so the deeper the turn the less power. Turning against the lower body has been part of the power game for quite some time. But to each his own.
 
Tadashi70 said:
The average golfer that gets too much hip turn in the back swing never clears their hips on the down swing. Quite often stopping the hips and swinging all arms.
Click to expand...

I can certainly grasp that logic and even picture it. But I suppose the key in that statement may perhaps be the term "too much". For now (with this subtle change) I believe I am still clearing my hips. That part and my finish doesn't feel any different at all.

If one wasn't clearing the hips would that not lead to heavy draws and hooked shots? And also being all arms I would think lead to less power and shorter shots. ove the past year my ss dropped some and it seems this method has added some of it back on (at least for the short time I am doing this..lol) and it hasn't cause me any more failed shots so with a touch extra distance and no less failures I figure its not hurting but helping even if just a little. But who knows? I could be wrong in the long term but too soon to tell yet.

And to your very last post above this one. Couldn't one still be creating resistance via upper vs lower body while still turning the hips to some degree and yet still turn the torso /shoulders enough to still create that power?
 
I think one reason to brace your core and hold the turn of your hips is because many people, once they start allowing their hips to turn back more freely, have no idea where the "top" of the swing actually should be, resulting in a much less controlled swing.
 
Paladin said:
I think one reason to brace your core and hold the turn of your hips is because many people, once they start allowing their hips to turn back more freely, have no idea where the "top" of the swing actually should be, resulting in a much less controlled swing.
Click to expand...

To me - so far for this very short time adding some hip turn, it feels about the same to me as far as the top of my swing. I still feel like I am taking the club back with the same resistance as when I held a more stable hip. Of course its probably further from the ball because the extra hip turn but the resistance and the top still feels like its at the same proportion in relation from hips to the shoulder turn. In other words feels like my shoulders are still turned the same amount from the hips as before. But the whole process I think is resulting in the club head being further around its arc/circle and now adding a tad more resistance from the legs too. if I made that even understandable...lol...I feel like I have more whole body resistance built up and of course more force created in unwinding it while still not adding any "kill the ball" mentality at all.
 
 
Not to many did it better than slamming Sammy @intherough

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I used to have an overswing, so I have a limited hip turn but I don't do it consciously.

I do agree though that for people with limited flexibility, there's more to lose than gain from limiting hip turn.
 
Tadashi70 said:
This couldn't be further from the truth. All the long ball hitters keep legs flexed and try to keep the belt buckle at the ball while the shoulders turn full. So pros have more flexibility than others and hip turn will vary.

The average golfer that gets too much hip turn in the back swing never clears their hips on the down swing. Quite often stopping the hips and swinging all arms.
Click to expand...

Tadashi70 said:
The issue is the average player can't do both. And the rear legs locks. The average player has slow hips so the deeper the turn the less power. Turning against the lower body has been part of the power game for quite some time. But to each his own.
Click to expand...

Sent this thread to my teacher (tour player) and was told you are dead right. In fact going as far as saying that its fairly simple and that if more average players realized the restriction, things would be far easier for them.
 
Mizunofan99 said:
As you get older and lose flexibility, restricting hip turn is almost impossible. I would have almost no powe at all.
Click to expand...

Exactly Mike, senior golfers are encouraged to turn our hips as we need the turn to get any power at all, and I use the term power loosely. lol
 
I think it's one thing to restrict the hips in an effort to not rotate them all, and another to make sure you're not rotating too far. I do the latter by focusing on turning into my upper right thigh, per my pro. It turns my hips enough for me and also helps my weight transition.

None of us are tour pros and attempting to hold back the hips the way they do would do more harm than good IMHO. As someone who's had lower back pain on and off, I'd rather rotate a bit too much than too little and cause issues.
 
Guys, I don't pretend to be a swing guru. Am not, don't want to be. I do know if you ask 4-5 instructors, they will have different thoughts on the matter -- but I think it is a matter of degree and what works for that player. And whenever one discusses these issues, video and pics help.

As an old guy for a forum type, I have seen instruction morph from old school to new school and back again, and now we have many schools of thought on the swing -- all are valid except I think for the way S&T is taught. I believe weight pressure does go to the back foot. The last 20 years, I went to Hank Haney's right hand guys, Matt Kuchar's Guru, Chris O'Connell, an unnamedTGM instructor, some S&T work, seen Dana Dahlquist in SoCal, and presently go to a biomechanical instructor who consults with PGA Touring Pros.

With Haney, they wanted no loss of flex in the back leg and not much hip turn. They don't talk much but I assume they expected some loss of flex and some turn - it is the classic coil. Can't tell you how many back issues I had, but lets's say "a lot" when I was in my late 30's. Now that's not to say the method is not valid or good -- it just was not good for my back -- I needed more hip turn to lose that stress.

Let's go to the other end of the spectrum - S&T - big loss of flex in rear leg, lots of hip turn. Less back issues. Not the most powerful swing although they have a few guys who hit it long.

From what I've seen on video over the years, when you can find vid or pics of PGA Touring Pros, you see more hip turn than you realize from behind in comparison to the classic caddie view. The DTL view also works (of course).

I have seen a matter of degrees - some do the coil, some less of a coil -- but all seem to have some slight loss of flex in the rear leg and the front leg gains flex, and some hip turn -- it varies and is what works for that player.

Have some vids. Grant Waite, Adam Scott, Tiger. Varying degrees - Adam seems more classic coil.

Oh, in the vid, Grant Waite no longer practices S&T in the classic sense -- he recognizes the change in weight pressure, although B&P will not admit it. But one sees varying degrees of flex - rear leg loses some flex, front leg gains flex, and then it reverses on the downswing where front leg straightens (locks/almost locks) and rear leg gains flex. You see varying degrees of hip turn. Restrict? Yes. I do believe you have more shoulder turn than hip turn - no argument there. And I agree with what the resident pro says here. I do think it's a matter of degree and what works for that player and his/her limitations and their objectives.

https://youtu.be/F7KOpkRaVKA

https://youtu.be/MsW0WuytKAE


https://youtu.be/npcdJaYOEKo


https://youtu.be/Of7u8V1FX20?list=PLx-C9hTrBqXValEOBySEn4pk4wSizBpvr
 
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I always try to envision a beach ball between my knees when swinging. Trying to hold a beach ball in my back swing without 'popping' it forces me to utilize more upper body rotation in the back swing. If everything works as it's supposed to, I can start my hips first to get through the transition.

Unfortunately, I am not always consistent and sometimes over commit one aspect or another...
 
Right or wrong IDK and fwiw the feeling I been receiving from my swing with what seems like some extra hip turn lately is this. I feel like I am starting the swing with my shoulders and then let my shoulder pull on my hips to turn them and of course that then feeling follows to my legs. Then I start the downswing with an opposite feeling where the legs pull the hips back and then they pull the shoulders back. Well...not really back to start but through start and through to finish. But I may be confused with what I am actually doing vs what I was doing before because of some weight loss. I am certainly a bit more flexible without quite as much mass around my belly and just maybe I am moving my hips more simply because I can more easily do it now. Am I moving them too much? I don't really know but I do feel good resistance. I don't feel like I am swinging with no resistance or coil at all even with what seems like some extra hip turn. From what I saw on a sim the other evening, when I allowed my shoulders to pull my hips a little more around it did increase my speed another or 2 mph. Of the bunch of swings I was making they were (in general) usually the faster of the bunch. Not by much but still a mph or 2 is enough of a difference on the plus side. So just maybe I am not over turning them or I would assume I'd be losing resistance and speed. Perhaps my 18 lb weight loss just has me feeling different and maybe just doing what I use to do at one time. Maybe I am just more able to coil a tad further than before. I really don't know but I hope this doesn't get in my head now and cause me to break down mechanically..lol
 
Desmond said:
Guys, I don't pretend to be a swing guru. Am not, don't want to be. I do know if you ask 4-5 instructors, they will have different thoughts on the matter -- but I think it is a matter of degree and what works for that player. And whenever one discusses these issues, video and pics help.

As an old guy for a forum type, I have seen instruction morph from old school to new school and back again, and now we have many schools of thought on the swing -- all are valid except I think for the way S&T is taught. I believe weight pressure does go to the back foot. The last 20 years, I went to Hank Haney's right hand guys, Matt Kuchar's Guru, Chris O'Connell, an unnamedTGM instructor, some S&T work, seen Dana Dahlquist in SoCal, and presently go to a biomechanical instructor who consults with PGA Touring Pros.

With Haney, they wanted no loss of flex in the back leg and not much hip turn. They don't talk much but I assume they expected some loss of flex and some turn - it is the classic coil. Can't tell you how many back issues I had, but lets's say "a lot" when I was in my late 30's. Now that's not to say the method is not valid or good -- it just was not good for my back -- I needed more hip turn to lose that stress.

Let's go to the other end of the spectrum - S&T - big loss of flex in rear leg, lots of hip turn. Less back issues. Not the most powerful swing although they have a few guys who hit it long.

From what I've seen on video over the years, when you can find vid or pics of PGA Touring Pros, you see more hip turn than you realize from behind in comparison to the classic caddie view. The DTL view also works (of course).

I have seen a matter of degrees - some do the coil, some less of a coil -- but all seem to have some slight loss of flex in the rear leg and the front leg gains flex, and some hip turn -- it varies and is what works for that player.

Have some vids. Grant Waite, Adam Scott, Tiger. Varying degrees - Adam seems more classic coil.

Oh, in the vid, Grant Waite no longer practices S&T in the classic sense -- he recognizes the change in weight pressure, although B&P will not admit it. But one sees varying degrees of flex - rear leg loses some flex, front leg gains flex, and then it reverses on the downswing where front leg straightens (locks/almost locks) and rear leg gains flex. You see varying degrees of hip turn. Restrict? Yes. I do believe you have more shoulder turn than hip turn - no argument there. And I agree with what the resident pro says here. I do think it's a matter of degree and what works for that player and his/her limitations and their objectives.

https://youtu.be/F7KOpkRaVKA

https://youtu.be/MsW0WuytKAE


https://youtu.be/npcdJaYOEKo


https://youtu.be/Of7u8V1FX20?list=PLx-C9hTrBqXValEOBySEn4pk4wSizBpvr
Click to expand...

des, you know i respect you and i enjoy the banter so please know that i'm not attacking you, i'm just trying to understand what it is you are putting out here. this is coming from someone (me) who spent about 18 months going hardcore s&t with a pro who is good friends with B&P, only to have moved to a more traditional swing with much better results.

i'm not sure anyone here is saying your hips should be completely restricted in the backswing. i think what is being said is that the coil/turn of the shoulders should be greater than the coil/turn of the hips, and that maintaining flex in the trailing knee is crucial to maintaining that delta. dustin johnson, rickie fowler and jason day come to mind as really big hitters who barely turn their hips at all but make massive turns away from the ball, and each of these players maintain significant knee flex.

i don't understand the point of posting videos of grant waite's swing. for s&t, his is the golden standard. awesome, but that's not a tour player's swing. i understand s&t, i know what it's supposed to do, but it wreaked havoc on my body even under the instruction of someone certified in it. when i was hardcore into it, and i would try to stand from a sitting position, or walk up the stairs in my house, my left hip flexor felt like it was shredding. and my lower back was always sore after playing. i am still having a tough time getting rid of the upward thrust of the hips, which is leading to inconsistencies in the bottom of the arc. as freddie once said, more people have moved away from s&t than have stuck with it. count me among those ranks.

i will admit that i think it's a mistake to try to mimic the swings of power guys like rory, rickie, dustin, jason day, etc. the other 99% of us don't have the strength of core, or flexibility in our shoulders and thoracic spine to make and support these massive turns. not to mention the incredible hand-eye coordination needed to deliver a dime-sized sweet spot in the proper impact position with a clubhead traveling over 120mph.

the rest of us need to "cheat" with hip rotation and loss of knee flexion to make a bigger turn and hit the ball farther. HOWEVER, the extent of that cheating CANNOT come at the expense of loss of timing and poor contact. although i get guys saying that as they get older they need to rotate their hips closed in the back swing and straighten the trailing leg to get a fuller turn and hit the ball farther, i would caution that this better not come at the expense of making sweet-spot contact. if it does, stop. you will lose more distance by missing the middle than you will gain by turning more.
 
I dunno, I stopped thinking about hips a few seasons ago. I just focus on using my legs and hips for a strong foundation and using my upper body to bring the club back. My hips might turn a little, but I honestly do not think about them going back. I just turn. I do focus on coiling and creating tension. I don't have back issues because I also focus a lot of time on being strong and getting stronger.

To summarize, I try not to use my lower body to bring the club back.
 
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