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Restricting Hip Turn

blugold said:
To summarize, I try not to use my lower body to bring the club back.
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But the tension created via the whole body should then unwind via the whole body. Imo kind of working in unison. If the shoulders are to tension and turn the hips, the hips should tension and move the legs. Coming back down via unwinding that resistance (at least I think but what do I know for sure) should then work in the opposite fashion. No?

If not then I would think (and I could be wrong) there would be power and speed loss. I must think of it like a spring for a moment. If one coiled a spring from the top (shoulders) its then pulling on everything below (hips then legs) and that pulling from below is then the opposite or the cause for unwind.
Release or turn the coiled spring from the top (shoulders) to go back to normal while holding the middle (hips/legs) of it and the stored energy from the top would be released before the bottom half even begins to release. Then once the bottom is released it only has half the stored energy because the top energy was already spent. Sounds good to me. Maybe :confused2: lol
 
Tadashi70 said:
This couldn't be further from the truth. All the long ball hitters keep legs flexed and try to keep the belt buckle at the ball while the shoulders turn full. So pros have more flexibility than others and hip turn will vary.

The average golfer that gets too much hip turn in the back swing never clears their hips on the down swing. Quite often stopping the hips and swinging all arms.
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I've often found that if I don't get my right hip turning back at takeaway (or at least feeling that way) that I start shifting instead of turning, especially with woods.

Any thoughts on how to keep lower body quiet while thinking about making a turn?


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ATLGolfer said:
I've often found that if I don't get my right hip turning back at takeaway (or at least feeling that way) that I start shifting instead of turning, especially with woods.

Any thoughts on how to keep lower body quiet while thinking about making a turn?


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Your swing is unique and you've grooved it. You have plenty of power and accuracy. But the move you have can be your undoing since if the timing is off, you're a little wild.
 
Tadashi70 said:
Your swing is unique and you've grooved it. You have plenty of power and accuracy. But the move you have can be your undoing since if the timing is off, you're a little wild.
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This is blasphemy.

I'm pretty sure Ben Hogan said that you have to move your feet like you're doing the electric slide while transitioning through at impact.




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ATLGolfer said:
This is blasphemy.

I'm pretty sure Ben Hogan said that you have to move your feet like you're doing the electric slide while transitioning through at impact.




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All the top teachers follow that philosophy
 
c.a.eleric said:
des, you know i respect you and i enjoy the banter so please know that i'm not attacking you, i'm just trying to understand what it is you are putting out here. this is coming from someone (me) who spent about 18 months going hardcore s&t with a pro who is good friends with B&P, only to have moved to a more traditional swing with much better results.

@c.a.eleric Not to worry, a board is for presenting different views and learning from each other. Defensiveness is not attractive, and I am always willing to learn. I also did S&T, not with good friends of B&P, but Dana Dahlquist did S&T - he was also a protege of Mac. I did not go to Dana for long, just when I was in SoCal off and on for a year -- did get the 2nd set of vids. I have moved on to a center pivot swing, but not S&T. It is less stressful on the body.



i'm not sure anyone here is saying your hips should be completely restricted in the backswing. i think what is being said is that the coil/turn of the shoulders should be greater than the coil/turn of the hips, and that maintaining flex in the trailing knee is crucial to maintaining that delta. dustin johnson, rickie fowler and jason day come to mind as really big hitters who barely turn their hips at all but make massive turns away from the ball, and each of these players maintain significant knee flex.

Agree.

i don't understand the point of posting videos of grant waite's swing. for s&t, his is the golden standard. awesome, but that's not a tour player's swing. i understand s&t, i know what it's supposed to do, but it wreaked havoc on my body even under the instruction of someone certified in it. when i was hardcore into it, and i would try to stand from a sitting position, or walk up the stairs in my house, my left hip flexor felt like it was shredding. and my lower back was always sore after playing. i am still having a tough time getting rid of the upward thrust of the hips, which is leading to inconsistencies in the bottom of the arc. as freddie once said, more people have moved away from s&t than have stuck with it. count me among those ranks.

As you may know, Grant is no longer affiliated with S&T. He makes a substantial weight/pressure shift according to a pressure plate vid. Apparently, many have left S&T because analysis shows that weight pressure does move substantially to the back leg. But that is irrelevant to the topic. We were discussing hip turn and restriction, and I think loss and regaining of flexion in the legs is related to hip turn, and from the below, I think we are in accord.

i will admit that i think it's a mistake to try to mimic the swings of power guys like rory, rickie, dustin, jason day, etc. the other 99% of us don't have the strength of core, or flexibility in our shoulders and thoracic spine to make and support these massive turns. not to mention the incredible hand-eye coordination needed to deliver a dime-sized sweet spot in the proper impact position with a clubhead traveling over 120mph.

Agree.

the rest of us need to "cheat" with hip rotation and loss of knee flexion to make a bigger turn and hit the ball farther. HOWEVER, the extent of that cheating CANNOT come at the expense of loss of timing and poor contact. although i get guys saying that as they get older they need to rotate their hips closed in the back swing and straighten the trailing leg to get a fuller turn and hit the ball farther, i would caution that this better not come at the expense of making sweet-spot contact. if it does, stop. you will lose more distance by missing the middle than you will gain by turning more.
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Agree. I think we're on the same page.
 
Desmond said:
Agree. I think we're on the same page.
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yessir! and i always appreciate talking about the swing when it can be done respectfully. swings are snowflakes, and there are very few wrong ways to swing, only different ways, so long as impact is correct.

the pga pro who taught me s&t spent time with mike and andy when they were formulating s&t and he's s&t certified. he's a great guy and was a helluva player back in the day. my body just couldn't handle the stresses of that swing. i still believe in a lot of s&t as i think it's rooted in moves every good player does. i think it's a great swing for 7i and down, but longer than that and i think it breaks down. just my thoughts after spending some time with it. if i could work with any "famous" teacher, it would be sean foley because i think his students have the most beautiful swings and i like the analytical approach.
 
c.a.eleric said:
yessir! and i always appreciate talking about the swing when it can be done respectfully. swings are snowflakes, and there are very few wrong ways to swing, only different ways, so long as impact is correct.

the pga pro who taught me s&t spent time with mike and andy when they were formulating s&t and he's s&t certified. he's a great guy and was a helluva player back in the day. my body just couldn't handle the stresses of that swing. i still believe in a lot of s&t as i think it's rooted in moves every good player does. i think it's a great swing for 7i and down, but longer than that and i think it breaks down. just my thoughts after spending some time with it. if i could work with any "famous" teacher, it would be sean foley because i think his students have the most beautiful swings and i like the analytical approach.
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Appreciate it.

The more I learn, the more fun and intriguing (and frustrating) I find the golf swing. I look around the range after each shot to smell the roses and take a break, and I see all sorts of swings. And many make contact. Well, it doesn't hurt that the local high schools play at that course. lol. I take lessons to get rid of all of those compensations I make for consistent contact -- and it is heck finding an instructor with whom you communicate well and has knowledge and data. I find it interesting that in my case, I've gone to some method instructors, and they are so quick to get you in the method that they forget to give you great basics. It's like backa$$ward teaching. I asked my guy to make it somewhat pretty so I look like a golfer -- the less compensations, the better. He had me with less hip turn, got off S&T, more shoulder turn, less active arms, kept the steady head, more arm-body connection - the basics. Tough game to get rid of poor habits. Perseverance and belief in yourself are key. And video, you must have video to progress!

Foley - bought his first DVD - he likes big words. Seems like a cool and good guy.
 
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rollin said:
But the tension created via the whole body should then unwind via the whole body. Imo kind of working in unison. If the shoulders are to tension and turn the hips, the hips should tension and move the legs. Coming back down via unwinding that resistance (at least I think but what do I know for sure) should then work in the opposite fashion. No?

If not then I would think (and I could be wrong) there would be power and speed loss. I must think of it like a spring for a moment. If one coiled a spring from the top (shoulders) its then pulling on everything below (hips then legs) and that pulling from below is then the opposite or the cause for unwind.
Release or turn the coiled spring from the top (shoulders) to go back to normal while holding the middle (hips/legs) of it and the stored energy from the top would be released before the bottom half even begins to release. Then once the bottom is released it only has half the stored energy because the top energy was already spent. Sounds good to me. Maybe :confused2: lol
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I guess I'm confused. I don't understand your tension example. Because the shoulders and hips rotate at different degrees and release points in the swing, I don't think your spring analogy grooves with the golf swing.
 
blugold said:
I guess I'm confused. I don't understand your tension example. Because the shoulders and hips rotate at different degrees and release points in the swing, I don't think your spring analogy grooves with the golf swing.
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It imo represents the coiling up and resistance effect of the swing. Or the winding up and storing tension then releasing/unwinding of it all. I've come across quite a few metaphor's mentioned in all my years. That's why I am so good at this game...lol
The word "coil" and even "spring" has popped up. Maybe far more the former but still I've heard or read it before somewhere. The logic that we should be creating coiled up tension and releasing it to then hit the ball with it. I thought it made OK sense. But then again I tend to think outside the box and perhaps to a fault..lol...Lord only knows I've created enough debate/discussions in the past when thinking outside the box.
Anyway, imo that built up tension should (unless i am wrong) include the whole body. Even the legs should get involved with sending energy to the ball imo. So with that logic, the whole body coils up (or builds energy) and then the whole body releases it then spends most of it upon contact. If we release the energy from different things at different times (spend it too early or late) that then is energy lost that wont be transferred to the ball. I don't think (and really not so certain) that this shouldn't include the legs too. Tension would not be just about the upper body but would (I think) include the hips and legs too. The body would in this logic, coil up and than coil back down to the ball just the same and hopefully release most the stored energy from everything at point of contact assuming timing is right. Take just about anything one can twist (like a spring) and then let it go and it all untwists. That's why I said like a spring.

Im not so certain we are to release energy at different points. Rotate different parts to different degrees but energy imo should be something we try to release altogether not at separate places. But I could be wrong so Im not dictating anything here but just finding it interesting to discuss.
 
Something happened to my swing during the off season. At the driving range, my driver, fairway, hybrids and long irons were either fading really bad or just a complete slice. Though I figured it out last week. With this thread in mind, I had a suspicion that I was getting to much hip rotation and on my downswing, my hips were rotating way too fast and my arms were trying to play catch up, eventually causing my swing to be out to in.

Took some videos and sent it off to my instructor and he confirmed that’s exactly what I was doing. My short irons were perfectly fine. He told me I need to quite my lower body (hips). I still have pretty good flexibility. My instructor told me to widen my stance to help is the hip rotation and concentrate more on rotating the top portion of my body.

Maybe it’s too early to tell, but at the range last night with this in mind. Winder stance and upper body rotation. For the most part, I was still getting great distance and pretty much straight shots. Some had baby draws. Even with this, hip rotation is unavoidable. However, the amount of hip rotation drastically decreased. With the upper body rotation, I felt the tension on my take away (more than I have before). I’m assuming this allowed me to come through the ball with a good amount of force and not lose any distance.

Can’t say this would work for everyone or anyone else but I can see this helping, especially if you still have the flexibility.
 
I understand that people want to swing their own way and that's cool. But to distort simple swing thoughts to fit an argument don't make sense to me. But to each their own.
 
rollin said:
It imo represents the coiling up and resistance effect of the swing. Or the winding up and storing tension then releasing/unwinding of it all. I've come across quite a few metaphor's mentioned in all my years. That's why I am so good at this game...lol
The word "coil" and even "spring" has popped up. Maybe far more the former but still I've heard or read it before somewhere. The logic that we should be creating coiled up tension and releasing it to then hit the ball with it. I thought it made OK sense. But then again I tend to think outside the box and perhaps to a fault..lol...Lord only knows I've created enough debate/discussions in the past when thinking outside the box.
Anyway, imo that built up tension should (unless i am wrong) include the whole body. Even the legs should get involved with sending energy to the ball imo. So with that logic, the whole body coils up (or builds energy) and then the whole body releases it then spends most of it upon contact. If we release the energy from different things at different times (spend it too early or late) that then is energy lost that wont be transferred to the ball. I don't think (and really not so certain) that this shouldn't include the legs too. Tension would not be just about the upper body but would (I think) include the hips and legs too. The body would in this logic, coil up and than coil back down to the ball just the same and hopefully release most the stored energy from everything at point of contact assuming timing is right. Take just about anything one can twist (like a spring) and then let it go and it all untwists. That's why I said like a spring.

Im not so certain we are to release energy at different points. Rotate different parts to different degrees but energy imo should be something we try to release altogether not at separate places. But I could be wrong so Im not dictating anything here but just finding it interesting to discuss.
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I am of the belief that the hips should only turn as much as necessary to achieve a full shoulder turn and the less hips, typically, the better.

But after reading your post, if we turn the hips and shoulders the same amount, where is the tension? Where is the coil?

The coil comes from have pulling muscles into eccentric contraction (lengthening). The power comes from releasing the eccentric contraction into concentric contraction (shortening) those muscles. The more eccentric contraction you create, the more your body can release that into concentric contraction.
 
I don't even know if you could swing or what it would look like if hips and shoulders only rotated the same. All arms I guess
 
Probably the round where I started to feel like I had some control over where my ball went.
 
blugold said:
I am of the belief that the hips should only turn as much as necessary to achieve a full shoulder turn and the less hips, typically, the better.

But after reading your post, if we turn the hips and shoulders the same amount, where is the tension? Where is the coil?

The coil comes from have pulling muscles into eccentric contraction (lengthening). The power comes from releasing the eccentric contraction into concentric contraction (shortening) those muscles. The more eccentric contraction you create, the more your body can release that into concentric contraction.
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I never implied at all in my posts that the hips should turn as much as the shoulders. That would be a ridiculous golf swing imo an not what I meant nor would expect. What I did imply is that the built up energy that is to be used comes from the coiling of the body from the legs through the hips and on through the torso up to the shoulders. Tension created via the arms and shoulders turning more than the hips (creating tension) but also the hips turning more than the lower legs also creating tension. Its really not different from what you said.

but you questioned a couple things to me. One was the "spring" reference and so in mentioning the "coiling up and release" motion of the swing I tried to make that seem similar.

The other thing you said earlier and also in a way referenced again was implying you don't pull with the legs and also that you release tension at different places. I think in one long motion the stored energy comes from the resistive rotation (coiling up) of the shoulders in relation to the hips and also the hips in relation to the lower legs. The hole move is a resistive coil that builds energy and then releases it on the way back down. All I really been saying is that its not just the upper body creating power via stored coiling energy but would also come from the legs and would all be part of coiled up stored energy via resistance from everything pulling one another from bottom to top. And if you release (spend) energy at different times it would work against the whole concept. I could be wrong but that's how I've always viewed it. And again never at all said the shoulders should turn as much as the hips.
 
Tadashi70 said:
This couldn't be further from the truth. All the long ball hitters keep legs flexed and try to keep the belt buckle at the ball while the shoulders turn full. So pros have more flexibility than others and hip turn will vary.

The average golfer that gets too much hip turn in the back swing never clears their hips on the down swing. Quite often stopping the hips and swinging all arms.
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The golf swing is very much YMMV however this is spot on for me. It has helped me tremendously. I "feel" like I restrict my hip turn during my backswing and it has made me more consistent.
 
Tadashi70 said:
I understand that people want to swing their own way and that's cool. But to distort simple swing thoughts to fit an argument don't make sense to me. But to each their own.
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I don't think its distorting. Its not like we have to take these thoughts to ball address with us. I just find it fun and interesting to talk swing physics and mechanics.
 
I find swing mechanics interesting. I sometimes forget golf isn't golf swing though. Restricting the hips to less than 45 degrees isn't really optimal but it also might be the best way for certain people to score lower.
 
I've been reading through this thread as i've been trying to sort my swing. My seing is now around a 3/4 backswing, keeping my arms nice and connected throughout. My hips turn but not by a massive amount otherwise my head "feels" like its moving. Im not sure if im on the lines of a Centre Pivot swing that Desmond mentions. Can anyone explain the basics of the centre pivot swing to me please?
 
Draw a line through the middle of your head down through your belt buckle to the ground on a face on video. That is the line your head and spine should stay on while you turn around that. I assume that is what he was talking about.
 
When you swing the golf club back off the ball you are redistributing your weight from even to the right side. If done properly your shoulders will turn over your right leg with most of the weight pressure being felt on the instep. This means you move off that center axis line to behind it. This is called weight transfer and also creates space to operate the golf club.

If the shoulders are able to turn to 90* then if possible holding the hips to less than 45* will create a great torque. The shoulders are turn against the hip and activating the back muscles. When the down swing begins with the left hip (for right handed golfer) all that tension begins to unwind down and into the ball. Driving hard off the instep while pulling the left hip and remaining behind the ball will maximize your energy transfer into the ball.

People that turn on a zero axis tend to open up to soon. The club is stuck behind them and the hips slow cause a hook or slice. Those that use their entire body to turn away and have a greater than 45* hip turn are going to see greater inconsistent ball strikes and loss of distance. A pro or lower cap has grooved their move and learn to maximize this move. And as we get older, most will lose flexibility so the hip turn will follow the shoulders. The farther the hips turn away from the ball the farther they have to travel to clear. With no increase in arm swing in he average golfer that means they will be stuck and have to manufacture a golf swing.

If you are able to limit your hip turn and make a full shoulder turn, I promise your results will be better. If you can't then you can't and your have to do what you can to advance the ball.
 
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