Playing with Slower Golfers

i like to try to be the voice of the other side, the voice of the slow. i have tried to change some of my ways to speed up, but i probably still have a long ways to go.

what would i have done? beyond respectful reminders regarding the pace and maintaining good readiness etiquette, nothing. i would never just leave a group.

do i believe anyone believes they are slow? i had to be told i was slow, so no, i don't think anyone knows they are slow until it's pointed out to them.

but i will say this: i have done some experiments although on a relatively small sample, and many - maybe even most though can't say all - people who identify as fast are not any faster than those they accuse of being slow. i've timed them and compared their time to my time. the most i've seen is 3 seconds per shot. that includes the time from it being someone's turn to the time they are either back in their cart or stepped off the tee for the next person. if i shoot 90, that's 5 minutes over 18 holes.

the slow play i have seen is a mainly two reasons. the social aspect is probably the biggest. people telling stories on the tee boxes and greens, or sitting in their carts talking instead of getting out to hit a shot. the second biggest reason i see is looking for errant shots when there are a lot of errant shots. i don't believe that using a laser or taking a handful of practice swings is the biggest reason for slow play. those take a few seconds at most, and the math (as i understand it) just doesn't support this being the reason for a 3.5 hour round ballooning to a 5 hour round.

Its never pre shot routine that is slow by itself. That can add 5-10 minutes per round.
Time spent on greens. Watching each of the 4 shoot in order before going to ball. Getting a distance without having any clubs in hand and having to walk back, looking for balls, etc. All of these things add 5-10 minutes or so. Then Add them up and you are at 30 minutes behind. Then add that every person behind you is playing catch up and all of the sudden 30 minutes behind is 45 minutes behind.

To give you an example, I play fast. Too fast. I can assure anybody that without feeling rushed in any way, the difference is more than a few seconds between their routine from start to finish and mine. That does not make my way right, just different and faster. But slow play is not about the person or group playing slow. Its about what it does to the course.

Courses get the blame (as do the players), but in this instance, what else could the course have done? They did everything right, and sadly one twosome ruined the day of golf for the other 100 that were set to play.
 
I guess I would probably have just put up with it unless I didn't have the time and would have excused myself and walked off the course. It's a bad situation. I'm assuming the people were in their own world and not just being rude.
 
That is a perfect example of players that don't think they are slow, proving that they are slow. Especially when you throw in the fact that they played better than the 9 handicapper.

I don't know what else he could've done, except for maybe putting out fast on 9 and heading straight to 10 tee and telling those guys thank you for the golf. But, I gotta plane to catch. See you later. They GPS was telling them. The Marshall was telling them. The 2 empty holes ahead was showing them. The group(s) behind them waiting showing them. Those 2 guys have blinders on and not much else can be done when those 2 are patting each other on the back. It's the blind leading the blind.
 
JB,

In regards to your last question, yes I do believe some golfers know they are slow. A guy I play with a few times per year is a good player (probably 6-7 hdcp), and is horribly slow. His problem is standing over the ball for too long, and cant pull the trigger. Similar to how Kevin Na was at The Players a few years ago, although not quite that bad. He always warns us ahead of time and apologizes, but it still drives me nuts. There is nothing more frustrating than playing with slow golfers to me, and watching groups build up behind you. I think it also bothers me even more when they are good players because its not like its taking them that long to play because they are swinging 120 times, they are just being inconsiderate.
 
I've been there before, luckily we weren't holding up the rest of the course in our situation. With that said, I did excuse myself and told the guys I had plans and needed get done a little quicker and left them behind. I'm proud of the course for making them skip a hole though, as that's a tough thing to do as it usually hurts peoples feelings. BUT, in this situation, with a play/time clock on the GPS, it's easy to see when you're getting behind....and if you're that far behind and you can't see the group you were following, plus people are waiting in the fairway behind. Guess what? That's on YOU and your group! That's a tough spot to be in for a single.
 
JB,

In regards to your last question, yes I do believe some golfers know they are slow. A guy I play with a few times per year is a good player (probably 6-7 hdcp), and is horribly slow. His problem is standing over the ball for too long, and cant pull the trigger. Similar to how Kevin Na was at The Players a few years ago, although not quite that bad. He always warns us ahead of time and apologizes, but it still drives me nuts. There is nothing more frustrating than playing with slow golfers to me, and watching groups build up behind you. I think it also bothers me even more when they are good players because its not like its taking them that long to play because they are swinging 120 times, they are just being inconsiderate.

I agree, i actually start to get really embarrased about it. Makes me feel so uncomfrtable knowing you have a bunch of players behind you muttering under their breath about the idiots holding them up!
 
To answer your first question, being a single I would have ditched them. I would have said something like, I'm on a time crunch, if you guys don't mind I'm just going to cruise ahead, thanks! I can respect your buddy for sticking it out because without him they would have been even slower, that shows he cares about the pace of play and it's effect on the rest of the course. Me.....nah, not my worry, I would have split! Your sub-question about would I ditch if I were playing with friends, no I wouldn't have for sure. I would have tried my best to speed the group along and sort of just sucked it up and tried not to let it bother me too much.

I don't think anyone truly thinks they are slow. I play in a weekly league with the same group every week and we've got 1 guy that's just dreadfully slow and I know that he's completely clueless about it. I'm always telling him to pick it up and I just don't think he gets it. There's a balance of the social aspect of golf and still maintaining a good pace of play!
 
I've been in the same situation before. Not with the better golfers part, but the slow golfers part. It's a hard situation to be in for me and I don't like causing a problem, so I usually keep my mouth shut about it unfortunately and deal with it.

As for the slow golfers in general part, no, I don't think anyone thinks they are slow. Especially if they are better golfers.

I am like that, I would usually suck it up and wait. but when that happens, I'll leave at the turn saying something like sorry guys, winter is coming soon, I have to go
 
I would have honestly just moved ahead of them when it first became brutally slow. Just thank them for letting you play and move along to the next hole while they are putting.

This is my answer. Just move on and finish ahead of them. Sounds like your friend could have played multiple shots as single and still not had the guys catch him or put pressure on the group in front since he was a single. As for slower golfers I have a friend who is slow but he knows he is slow and we accommodate for that.
 
I'm very aware of the clock and am usually the first one to pipe up and say we have to pick up the pace. As for your friend he should have left them and played all 18. All he had to do was say 'I'm going to be late so I'm playing ahead, thanks guys'
 
You know what really sucks? Being a member at a course that would not push the pace of play as much! The courses I play have a huge membership thanks to GreatLife, it's an all inclusive golf/gym membership that gives members something like 20 courses within an hour or so of here plus gym memberships for a reasonable monthly price. So with that our play has had to have tripled it seems. The courses are always packed and the rangers completely suck at their jobs! A classic response from one of the rangers is always "looks like it'll be a little slow today boys".....they never ask players to skip holes and never really push anyone to keep up with the group in front of them. Several times last year our group (all walkers who normally can play 18 in about 3:15) walked off the course after 9 holes. Sometimes we'll leave after 7 because the 8th tee is close to the parking lot. It's gotten ridiculous and I really hope that something can be done about it this year!
 
Its never pre shot routine that is slow by itself. That can add 5-10 minutes per round.
Time spent on greens. Watching each of the 4 shoot in order before going to ball. Getting a distance without having any clubs in hand and having to walk back, looking for balls, etc. All of these things add 5-10 minutes or so. Then Add them up and you are at 30 minutes behind. Then add that every person behind you is playing catch up and all of the sudden 30 minutes behind is 45 minutes behind.

To give you an example, I play fast. Too fast. I can assure anybody that without feeling rushed in any way, the difference is more than a few seconds between their routine from start to finish and mine. That does not make my way right, just different and faster. But slow play is not about the person or group playing slow. Its about what it does to the course.

Courses get the blame (as do the players), but in this instance, what else could the course have done? They did everything right, and sadly one twosome ruined the day of golf for the other 100 that were set to play.

i've heard that about you! and in fact, i saw it when we played at lake jovita when your group finished WAY before our group who was directly behind. but that's why i said i can't say everyone who thinks they're fast isn't fast. i did my little timer experiment a few times at lake jovita and it held true. and by the way, when i've done it the timer starts after a shot is struck and ends when the next golfer is finished and moving on.

i agree that many are stuck in the old school mentality of everyone lining up parallel to the guy away, then advancing to the next guy's ball. i like the idea of everyone going to their ball, assessing their respective shots all at the same time, then getting out of the way if necessary. i do think that would help.

i think the greens issue is interesting. i can't think of many times i have felt someone took too long on the greens. i know people talk about this quite often, so i'm sure it's an issue. the times i've thought people took the longest were after one person hits their shot, the next guy up is on his phone or talking to his cartmate and doing nothing to go get ready to hit his next shot or even look for it if it's off in the trees. so the social aspect and not playing ready golf definitely need to change.

but the slow twosome ruined everyone else's day? RUINED?! inconvenienced? yes. affected the enjoyment of others? no doubt. made it a rough go for the rangers and course? definitely. but RUINED? if that's all it takes to ruin somebody's day, they make medication for that. and for those who say they plan their day accordingly and then a slow golfer makes them late to something, i'm sorry but that's your fault for trying to cram 10 pounds in a 5 pound bag. the best round of golf i ever played was cut short because the course was slower than i was expecting. it was frustrating, but it's my fault for not planning better.

and to answer your question "what could the course have done?" nothing short of force the group off the course. which i think would be very inappropriate.
 
Other than leaving them he did what I would have done. We have a couple slow guys and we have to constantly tell them to speed up.

I don't think people think they are slow and it's always something from pin placement and tee box setup, or I had a couple bad holes.
 
I've never had anyone say anything to me about playing too slow or fast, but I have dropped some hints and I have encouraged letting groups play through as an open hole presented itself to try to relieve some of the mounting pressure behind...

Tough spot to be in... I don't know that I could ever have left them behind altogether, but I guess that also depends on whether I enjoyed the company... I tend to be a little on the faster side and unfortunately I let myself get stressed and irritable to play slow. That being said, I do believe that often times my game can suffer either due to irritability from slow play or carelessness from an open course where I can play as fast as I like... I need to be better about finding a middle ground.
 
but the slow twosome ruined everyone else's day? RUINED?! inconvenienced? yes. affected the enjoyment of others? no doubt. made it a rough go for the rangers and course? definitely. but RUINED? if that's all it takes to ruin somebody's day, they make medication for that. and for those who say they plan their day accordingly and then a slow golfer makes them late to something, i'm sorry but that's your fault for trying to cram 10 pounds in a 5 pound bag. the best round of golf i ever played was cut short because the course was slower than i was expecting. it was frustrating, but it's my fault for not planning better.

and to answer your question "what could the course have done?" nothing short of force the group off the course. which i think would be very inappropriate.

Figure of speech, but to some, yeah its kind of ruined.
You expect to play golf. You expect to play at pace especially during the morning in the middle of the week.
To have a pace that is 4:08 turn into 5:30 is a big deal.

Would you be okay if I was in the group in front of you and gouged holes in the green after we finished each hole before you hit up? Why not? I mean it heals in a day or two. Because its making your experience less than what it is supposed to be. Which makes perfect sense. Its the same thing with pace. If someone cant keep pace, then they either should be forced to skip a hole to get caught up, or get off the course. Its no different to me than ruining the course conditions, as its making the play worse for everybody around them. In fact you could make the case that with the exception of the fact that damage will take longer than a single day to heal, they are identical in terms of how it impacts those behind.

And dont take this personally, but the bolded is crazy. If you have reservations at a restaurant and leave at the appropriate time from your house, but some guy stays in front of you the whole way going 5 mph and you are unable to pass, so the restaurant gave up your seats, that guy ruined your meal. Doesnt mean its the end of the world, but lets not pretend it cant be fixed without a bit more selflessness. Slow play is selfish, there is no way around that. Your examples of what you have timed prove that perfectly.

To the second bolded part. What is a course to do? Basically bend over if a slow group ruins their tee sheet? SLow group goes out at 9am, a courses tee sheet is ruined for the entire day. Players dont finish, groups complain and dont return, etc. So what should a course do to fix matters like this, since you do not feel they should be allowed to ask a group to leave? Asking genuinely.
 
I would have politely said guys enjoy your round, I have to be somewhere so I'm going to break off and finish without you.
 
Yesterday a friend called me after he went to the course as a single and got paired with a twosome. They teed off and the two he was paired with were quite good. He plays to about a 9 and they were a bit better than him. By the 5th hole they were a full hole behind the group in front of them. By the turn, they were 2 full holes behind and groups stacked up waiting on them.

Now my friend is fast, but not racing fast. The story was that these guys were painfully slow at being ready to play at their ball, ready to tee off and reading greens (like most slow players). They preferred the social side and stood around talking most of the time. Rangers warned them on the 6th green. They again told them to speed up on the 9th tee box. On the 14th green, the ranger told them they needed to skip the 15th hole.

They did so reluctantly and the whole time were complaining about "I paid my money" and "how rude".

So my friend asks me what I would have done? He said he told them on 5 separate occasions not in conjunction with the course that they had to speed up. Course has GPS on it that times you and they finished well behind and they skipped a hole. That means the rest of the course (every single golfer out there) is now off pace due to two players.

So the question is, what would you have done in this situation? How would you handle it? I asked why he didn't just leave them, and his response was they would have gotten even slower. The crazy part is, they said "We are not slow golfers and are good enough to keep pace". (Im of the belief that skill and speed are not mutually exclusive)

Another question is, do you think anybody really ever believes they are slow? Or is their usually a reason they are being held up, because it's not them? So would you have handled the situation the same way as my friend? Would you have left them? When they finished there was nobody in sight in front of them, but there were multiple groups waiting all around the course.
Nope. I've been playing with the same group of twelve guys for about five years and we have about three guys that b*tch about each other how. slow they are.

It's quite comical really.

People don't even pay attention.

As far as what I would have done? Like Mulligan said thanked them for the round and go ahead a hole. It's not my job to try and ride someone on the golf course, I have enough problems worrying about my own game.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 
If there is a hole (or, gasp, two) ahead and groups backing up I would excuse myself from strangers and play on alone.

If it's with people I know, I prod them along. Unfortunately when that happens my game (what there is of a game) goes to crap for a while as I get my group moving! Letting groups through is a last resort, since that slows things down too but will do it if the other people don't pick up the pace. I do what I can to avoid letting it get stacked up behind us when there's no one in front of us. I am a firm believer of your place on the course is right behind the group in front of you, not to be in front of the group behind you.
 
I agree with those that suggest skill level and slow play are two separate aspects of golf. Good players can be slow and bad players can be fast. I have the good fortune to play with some rather good "A" players. So we come to what is perceived as a reachable par 5. I have long since hit my second shot while they wait for the green to clear because they can or think they can get there in two. In the mean time, the group behind has reached the tee. So I would ask, are they playing slow, or does the nature of the beast make it appear to be slow.
 
Think I would have shaken their hands, wished them well and played ahead. Slow play is one thing, ignorance is another.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
There's a guy I seem to get paired with all too often (we'll call him Yappy). He's one of the first to complain about how slow people are playing, but he's also one of the guys who will stand on a tee telling a 5 minute long story. About a month ago, we were paired together in a tournament. Late in the round, we arrived at a par 5 tee with the group ahead of us just getting to their 3rd player hitting their tee shots. Both #3 and #4 hit provisional shots in addition to their tee shots.

Yappy is in the cart on the tee bemoaning the fact that these guys are still getting off the tee. We had a good 7 minute wait until we could tee off... so plenty of time to BS. When it was finally clear, Yappy steps to the tee and puts his peg in the ground... then goes into a story about how slow players are killing the fun. No lie... it was 3 minutes long. He was urged on twice by myself and another guy in our group. I even made the 'joke' that slow play was caused by guys on the tee who wanted to talk, hoping he'd take the hint. No go.

After Yappy hit, I was next. The group behind us pulled up as I was hitting. We SHOULD have been off that tee and probably at our balls by that point, but because he needed to tell his story, we were now behind.

Granted, we ended up behind the group again by the next tee... but I hate waiting. When it's time to hit... just go.

In a situation like your friend had... I would have moved on ahead of them. I'd have politely told them that I have an appointment to get to, so I was going to jump on out in front of them so that I could ensure I made it on time. My opinion... it wasn't his responsibility to police them, and ultimately, he got a hole shaved off his round because of an unfortunate pairing.
 
That would drive me absolutely nuts. I guess I have been spoiled my whole life growing up/ living in a small area that if I was a single I could just go beat around the course all by myself and not have to be paired with complete strangers. There are a few guys that play in our leagues that are painfully slow. There is one guy that his pre shot routine probably takes him atleast a minute after he arrives at his ball. Once he addresses it he waggles like 65 times, looks up looks down, waggles some more, then duck hooks it OB or into a neighboring hole then rinse repeat. Now my uncle on the other hand expects every round he plays to take 45 minutes, and whenever we play with him we constantly feel rushed which is almost as annoying as the guy that takes forever. As long as everyone is paying attention when its their turn you can have a lot of fun and talk and whatnot without holding everyone behind you up.
 
Figure of speech, but to some, yeah its kind of ruined.
You expect to play golf. You expect to play at pace especially during the morning in the middle of the week.
To have a pace that is 4:08 turn into 5:30 is a big deal.

Would you be okay if I was in the group in front of you and gouged holes in the green after we finished each hole before you hit up? Why not? I mean it heals in a day or two. Because its making your experience less than what it is supposed to be. Which makes perfect sense. Its the same thing with pace. If someone cant keep pace, then they either should be forced to skip a hole to get caught up, or get off the course. Its no different to me than ruining the course conditions, as its making the play worse for everybody around them. In fact you could make the case that with the exception of the fact that damage will take longer than a single day to heal, they are identical in terms of how it impacts those behind.

And dont take this personally, but the bolded is crazy. If you have reservations at a restaurant and leave at the appropriate time from your house, but some guy stays in front of you the whole way going 5 mph and you are unable to pass, so the restaurant gave up your seats, that guy ruined your meal. Doesnt mean its the end of the world, but lets not pretend it cant be fixed without a bit more selflessness. Slow play is selfish, there is no way around that. Your examples of what you have timed prove that perfectly.

To the second bolded part. What is a course to do? Basically bend over if a slow group ruins their tee sheet? SLow group goes out at 9am, a courses tee sheet is ruined for the entire day. Players dont finish, groups complain and dont return, etc. So what should a course do to fix matters like this, since you do not feel they should be allowed to ask a group to leave? Asking genuinely.

bud, i don't take it personally at all. it's golf, and the conversation is fun. a lot more fun than the piles of work in my office right now!

5:30 hours is pretty awful. i totally agree. but it's a possibility. if i schedule a round at a busy course at 9am on a saturday, i can't get upset if it doesn't finish in the prescribed time. or maybe i just roll with it better because i'm not a fast player? if i need to get from my house to the other side of town for a 6pm appointment and the distance is 20 miles, i would be pretty foolish to calculate the time based on distance and speed limit. i have to factor in the potential for traffic. i think it's similar with a round of golf.

the guy gouging the greens or leaving the flagstick out or never raking the bunker is absolutely going to bother me. i'll b1tch about it and add it to the list of excuses why i didn't score as well as i wanted to. but it won't ruin my day. i'm not at work. i'm not stuck at a kindergartner's birthday party having surface level conversations with people i don't want to be around. i'm playing golf, and i LOVE to play golf.

i'll say it again: there's nothing more they should do. i get the risk, but i still don't think it's appropriate to remove somebody from the course all together. they should be informed of the proper pace, reminded of the need to speed up, potentially have a ranger drive with them on a hole or two to basically be a constant reminder of their problem. but that's it. your restaurant example is great. some groups linger and take a lot longer than the restaurant projects when it is taking reservations. and if enough groups do this, it can really be a problem. people waiting for their reservation huff and puff and storm out, never to return. maybe the kitchen gets behind and people's food takes too long and they never return. but what is the answer? go tell the lingerers to leave? escort them out? not in my mind.
 
After the first warning, the ranger should have told them to catch up, or leave. As for the comment of "I paid my money.", my response is always the same: "Screw you pal, so did I."
 
i'll say it again: there's nothing more they should do. i get the risk, but i still don't think it's appropriate to remove somebody from the course all together. they should be informed of the proper pace, reminded of the need to speed up, potentially have a ranger drive with them on a hole or two to basically be a constant reminder of their problem. but that's it. your restaurant example is great. some groups linger and take a lot longer than the restaurant projects when it is taking reservations. and if enough groups do this, it can really be a problem. people waiting for their reservation huff and puff and storm out, never to return. maybe the kitchen gets behind and people's food takes too long and they never return. but what is the answer? go tell the lingerers to leave? escort them out? not in my mind.

So your thoughts are, a course has no reason to remove someone from the course. Whether that be ruining the grounds, slow play or anything else? They all have similar results to the groups behind them.

I strongly disagree with this. I think if more courses were pro-active, remove someone give them a refund or partial refund, they make out way ahead and people become forced to play on pace.

There is never a reason where slow play should be tolerated. Every survey done on golf right now by any publication or group lists that and cost as the two biggest obstacles for why people are not playing more. With slow play being #1 in most lists. Its a selfish act that is 100% fixable if a person is aware of their surroundings, just like anything else in life.

Saying "screw everybody else" the course or other groups have to suffer because I paid my fees and dont care how long I take is a major problem in golf. We have already seen pace go from 4 hours to 4:30 in the last 15 years for no other reason than people got slower. If a course is not allowed to fix the problem, the sport may in fact be in more trouble than I ever imagined.

In this instance, the course did everything right, and they still got killed because of it.

One last thing. Your example was about the customer lingering in a restaurant and last time I checked, there was no rule at a restaurant for pace. There probably should be, but forecasting based on history is a bit different than a posted rule stating what is to be done. Its why my example was from the customer not making the proper time, not the restaurant.
 
Back
Top