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Thread: Custom is A Must for Great Golf

  1. #31
    Junior Golfer Stevens24's Avatar
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    I think that fitting can play a huge difference in how you can play. I think many go for a driver fitting and are disappointed because it "only goes 6 yards longer. I think the real benefit is iron fitting and narrowing dispersion and regulating spin. If a fairway is 25 yards wide and I am 8 yards to the right side of the fairway compared to the middle it probably won't make much of a difference. But if i am 8 yards right of the green compared to the middle it will. Yes, swing can play a large part in that, but optimizing the club for your current swing eliminates one variable. Most of the services will adjust clubs if your swing improves and the lie needs to be changed 1/2 of a degree. Not to mention the mental confidence a player can have knowing it was the swing and not the club.

    Also in the long run it may be less expensive but getting 1 700.00 driver than trying 5 380.00 drivers.

    I think people should get fit for a putter also.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevens24 View Post
    I think that fitting can play a huge difference in how you can play. I think many go for a driver fitting and are disappointed because it "only goes 6 yards longer. I think the real benefit is iron fitting and narrowing dispersion and regulating spin. If a fairway is 25 yards wide and I am 8 yards to the right side of the fairway compared to the middle it probably won't make much of a difference. But if i am 8 yards right of the green compared to the middle it will. Yes, swing can play a large part in that, but optimizing the club for your current swing eliminates one variable. Most of the services will adjust clubs if your swing improves and the lie needs to be changed 1/2 of a degree. Not to mention the mental confidence a player can have knowing it was the swing and not the club.

    Also in the long run it may be less expensive but getting 1 700.00 driver than trying 5 380.00 drivers.

    I think people should get fit for a putter also.

    It's fun to throw out numbers but I've never seen it in the real world. Among the few people I've known who have done a "serious" driver fitting (i.e. going to The Kingdom, being fit by a Club Champion type setup, etc.) the best I've seen is an extra 5-10 yards of distance and a vague feeling that "I think I'm hitting it straighter". I don't see handicaps go down, I don't see them hitting shorter clubs into greens, I don't see guys who drive it in the trees suddenly keeping it between the tree lines every hole.

    I have met a couple of good club-level players (scratch or better) who have fine-tuned their driver game through equipment and ball fitting. But they were looking for fairly small improvements on an already solid game off the tee. I think that is totally available in most cases once a player has the swing basics cover and is looking for an equipment optimization, even if it's pretty subtle.

    The only time in my life I've ever seen a guy shed multiple strokes off his handicap with a driver change was 15-20 years ago. The last holdout with a steel-shafted sub-200cc driver among my regular playing group at the time (these were hacks like me at a public course that was basically a cow pasture) finally got a Great Big Bertha or whatever it was. He went from missing half a dozen fairways a round and driving it 180-190 to hitting about 90% of his fairways and driving it 200+. Almost immediately his index dropped from 12 to 10 with literally no change except that one club.

    If we were talking about that kind of difference then, for an avid golfer, even a $600+ custom-fitted driver might make perfect sense. But replacing one 45-1/2" 460cc titanium driver that works fairly well with an "optimized" 45-1/2" 460cc titanium driver is not going to mean hitting five more fairways a round or dropping multiple strokes off your index. It just doesn't happen.

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  4. #33
    Major Champion 93civiccpe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OITW View Post
    Fittings are definitely beneficial to all golfers. Gains will differ based on swing - I know I see/would see more success with gear built for my game than grabbing something off the rack.

    None of my MC gear is “stock”
    Mine either.. Grip tape for days!!

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

    Driver: Cobra King F9 speedback 10.5* driver (yellow), tour length UST Helium 5F4 stiff shaft
    Fairway: Cobra King F9 speedback 3-4 wood (avalanche white) with Atmos blue 7 stiff shaft.
    Cobra King F9 speedback 5-6 wood (avalanche white) with Atmos blue 7 stiff shaft.
    Cobra King F9 speedback 7-8 wood (avalanche white) with Atmos blue 7 stiff shaft.
    Irons: Cobra Forged TEC Black 5i-GW. Nippon Modus3 Tour 105 stiff shafts.
    Wedges: Cobra King black wedge 54* (bent to 55*), Versatile grind. Nippon Modus3 Tour 105 stiff shaft.
    Cobra King black wedge 58* (bent to 59*), Versatile grind. Nippon Modus3 Tour 105 stiff shaft.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Et Tu Brute? View Post
    It's fun to throw out numbers but I've never seen it in the real world. Among the few people I've known who have done a "serious" driver fitting (i.e. going to The Kingdom, being fit by a Club Champion type setup, etc.) the best I've seen is an extra 5-10 yards of distance and a vague feeling that "I think I'm hitting it straighter". I don't see handicaps go down, I don't see them hitting shorter clubs into greens, I don't see guys who drive it in the trees suddenly keeping it between the tree lines every hole.

    I have met a couple of good club-level players (scratch or better) who have fine-tuned their driver game through equipment and ball fitting. But they were looking for fairly small improvements on an already solid game off the tee. I think that is totally available in most cases once a player has the swing basics cover and is looking for an equipment optimization, even if it's pretty subtle.

    The only time in my life I've ever seen a guy shed multiple strokes off his handicap with a driver change was 15-20 years ago. The last holdout with a steel-shafted sub-200cc driver among my regular playing group at the time (these were hacks like me at a public course that was basically a cow pasture) finally got a Great Big Bertha or whatever it was. He went from missing half a dozen fairways a round and driving it 180-190 to hitting about 90% of his fairways and driving it 200+. Almost immediately his index dropped from 12 to 10 with literally no change except that one club.

    If we were talking about that kind of difference then, for an avid golfer, even a $600+ custom-fitted driver might make perfect sense. But replacing one 45-1/2" 460cc titanium driver that works fairly well with an "optimized" 45-1/2" 460cc titanium driver is not going to mean hitting five more fairways a round or dropping multiple strokes off your index. It just doesn't happen.
    This is how I look at it, however, I've changed my view on what "great golf" means.
    I'm an avid golfer, by most people's standards a good golfer, but great? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHAAAAA! Umm. NO.

    I'd love to have custom fitted, spined, blue printed, clubs. Get that itch scratched, and put at ease, but right now I do not see it helping my score.
    If I was a great golfer, the optimization would yield better opportunities. Just not where I'm currently loosing strokes, or even where most of the great golfers loose theirs.

    When I go left or right of the fairway, I'm not missing often by single digit yards.

    Returning to the game this year, I bought straight off the rack. I just need to play. Next year I will get lessons and fitting worked in.
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    4i - 6i: 712CB w/Dynalite Gold XP S300
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    I play golf because it cannot be won, some just play it better. I keep playing to figure out why.

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    I'm stuck in limbo... some much needed life changes have brought a new version of me, happier, and 75 lbs lighter but its impacted my swing and not in a negative way, just a different strategic plan is needed in terms of equipment. I'm still shooting the same numbers but am finding different ball flights because I feel that enough has changed where I am going to back to Club Champion and have a reassessment. What is so great is that they take the right approach, they tend to avoid the "make sure a sale gets out the door". Its nice to know that I can get in a bay and be told theres no need to change a shaft in the driver but the hybrids aren't looking great, feels like less of a money grab to me. However, they're prices are on high end of the game.
    Rogue 10.5 - Oban Isawa 65 03 (44 inches)
    PXG 3 Wood - Isawa 65 03
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebute View Post
    Why does Leadbetter say that in "most" instances non-custom clubs are hurting games, but then cite examples of 5'4" or 7' golfers? Sure, people at extreme ends of the physical spectrum have unique needs, but I doubt that most people can't get a solid fit from an OEM fitting cart. Try a few heads and shafts, work on your swing, and go play...
    He probably believes that fitted clubs are better than non-fitted clubs, but it doesn't hurt that he's a paid endorser for Club Champion.

    I am a proponent of custom fitting and believe it is beneficial for most people. That said, this "article" came off sounding like a prepared marketing statement for Club Champion instead of an independent piece of writing. I am one of those people that didn't have the greatest experience at Club Champion either, so I'm biased in that regard (just being transparent).
    "arydolphin has a good bit of swag" - claycribbs

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    Wedges: Vokey SM6 54 S grind and 58 M grind, DG S200
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  9. #37
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    The article sounds like an ad for CC. Yes I think it's beneficial but the cost over a big box fitting may not be worth it.

  10. #38
    Follow @THPGolf JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by formula8 View Post
    The article sounds like an ad for CC. Yes I think it's beneficial but the cost over a big box fitting may not be worth it.
    It pretty much is an article for Club Champion.
    Im not sure that changes the thoughts though. Leadbetter has been a fitting advocate for well over a decade and DA could certainly say buy off the rack.
    In my 2018 #TheGrandaddy THP Event Bag

    Driver:
    Epic Flash w/ Helium Shaft 45"
    Driver 2: XXIO Prime w/
    Custom THP HZRDUS Shaft 43.5"
    Fairway Wood:
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    Hybrids:
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    Irons: Apex 19 w/ Recoil Proto 95
    Wedges:
    CBX 50* and RTX-4 56* & 60* PM Grind 19
    Putter:
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    Balls:
    Chrome Soft X

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  12. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    Pretty interesting article about club fitting and specifically Club Champion. I would be interested to get THPers thoughts on it.

    Written by Leonard Finkel

    If you told the average golfer that one change would instantly have them hitting the ball farther, more accurately and even lower their scores, they would likely laugh at you. But it’s true! Incredible as it may sound, a comprehensive custom club fitting with personalized equipment is that one change.

    A Golf Magazine study found that 90 percent of U.S. golfers might be playing with improperly fit clubs. Meaning nine out of ten golfers are missing out on extra yards and more accurate putts every time they tee off. I interviewed world-renowned instructors Hank Haney and David Leadbetter on the impact of club fitting and here’s what I learned.

    “It never ceases to amaze me that golfers buy clubs off the shelf and assume they’re right for them,” said Leadbetter. “Whether you’re a great golfer or a casual one, getting a custom club fitting is one of the quickest ways to improve your game.” If you’re looking at buying a set of irons off the rack, you’ll get a standard, stock shaft that has a standard length and flex. This doesn’t change if you’re 5’ 4” tall or pushing seven feet. In most instances, clubs that are not custom fit are hurting your game.

    Club manufacturers do a great job of marketing their new products and touting all the benefits of their equipment - improvements to the clubface, custom weighting options, new materials - but what they don’t tell golfers is that not every club and shaft suits every golfer. There’s more to a golf club than just look and feel Those other elements, along with aftermarket shafts, are what separate custom fitted equipment from clubs bought off the shelf.

    Golf Digest Top 10 instructor Haney believes that an optimized set of golf clubs is the key to more distance. “Distance is so important, and everybody can achieve more distance with custom equipment. We see it with the touring pros. And that opportunity is there with premium fitters like Club Champion. The advancements we’ve had in equipment and in club fitting are just so incredible, that for somebody not to take advantage of it is a wasted opportunity.”

    Most golf retailers use fitting carts provided by club manufacturers. While they offer options, golfers are unable to mix and match across brands to determine their ideal combinations. A traditional retailer will fit you for Callaway, TaylorMade or other manufacturer’s clubs using that company’s fitting cart. But you’ll only be fit for the shafts that are in their specific cart. The options are limited. True customization just isn’t possible at big box retail stores.

    Chicago-based Club Champion along with other specialty fitters set themselves apart with a unique coupling system that allows for the combination of any head with any shaft. Because of this, Club Champion can deliver a Tour-quality fitting that produces longer, more accurate shots with a nearly 100 percent satisfaction rate from its customers.

    The company’s approach is unbiased in that no specific vendor is promoted. In fact, Club Champion offers hundreds of shafts, many not available through most other fitters and retailers. The goal is to find the best combination of components to lower a golfer’s scores. In addition to its unrivaled selection of combinations – more than 35,000 – Club Champion stands out because its clubs are built in-house to exacting, unrivaled tolerances. Variables such as swingweight, length, lie and flex definitely alter performance. At Club Champion they calibrate their loft, lie and swingweight machines in every studio with those in their 15,000 square foot build shop, so you can be sure the club you hit in their fitting bay is the same club you purchase. This extra step is unique to Club Champion and makes a big impact on the performance of your new custom clubs.

    The approach seems to be effective. A Golf Digest study found that eight out of nine Club Champion custom-fit golfers lowered their scores by as much as six strokes per round and added an average of 21 yards off the tee.
    Who benefits most from custom fitting? There’s a myth that only “good” golfers should invest their time and money in a fitting, but Haney disagrees: “There isn't anyone who can’t benefit from club fitting. People just don't pay enough attention to their equipment. I guess they just think it's all the same, but it's not. If you get the right club for you, it can make a tremendous difference in your golf game.”

    Leadbetter is on the same page. While he thinks Tour players are an obvious match for clubfitting, he understands that they have the ability to make adjustments to their game that the average golfer cannot. “I don’t think there’s any player that wouldn’t benefit from club fitting. The average player would probably benefit far more than even the Tour player would. Because to get fitted and have a club that suits their length, lie, shaft, flex, material and grip size...those factors make a huge difference for the average golfer to be able to reach their potential.”
    Another big difference between Tour players and casual golfers is having the time and resources to devote to improving their game. “Players don't have a lot of time to work on their golf swing these days, so to actually fit a club to their particular swing can get really great results. Obviously, Club Champion fitters are the best at it, and with their stores around the country, people have access to all this information.”

    According to Haney, instruction starts with the most fundamental element of your golf game - equipment. If he’s fighting his students’ equipment, he can’t get a true read of the problems. “If somebody's slicing it or hooking or pulling or pushing it, I want to make sure there's not something in their equipment contributing to that. If you don't get the equipment right first, then you're going to have to over-correct in order to get a ball flight change and you don't want to do that.”

    Golfers who have experienced the gains and improvements after a fitting tout the benefits. Gary Lichenstien, who was fit with a TaylorMade driver and Callaway irons, says, “My distance off the tees has increased by 20 yards consistently, on occasion even more. My average score has dropped about four to five strokes on average. I feel over time, I can still pick up a few more strokes.”

    When Club Champion says you’ll add 20 yards off the tee, they mean it. Whether a golfer is looking to buy new clubs or just upgrade his or her current set, Club Champion guarantees that an investment in premium club fitting will improve his or her game. Fittings range from $80 for wedges to $350 for an entire bag. Their Perfect Fit Guarantee includes free loft and lie adjustments and a lifetime warranty against manufacturer defects. At Club Champion, you don’t just buy clubs, you buy guaranteed improvement!

    “Club Champion truly is one of the most innovative club fitters in the business. They provide a consumer experience that is undeniably helpful for all golfers to play better. We couldn’t be more thrilled with our partnership with Club Champion.”
    David Abeles, CEO TaylorMade Golf


    “There isn't anyone who can’t benefit from club fitting. With the advances in custom fitting technologies to optimize your equipment, everybody can achieve more distance. At Club Champion, you get a truly professional fitting. They can actually prove it works. For somebody not to take advantage of Club Champion’s expertise, they're just wasting a tremendous opportunity.”
    Hank Haney, Golf Digest Top 10 Instructor

    Agree and disagree with the article. I had a full bag fitting with CC and overall they did a good job and it certainly helped my game a bit but they can’t fix swing flaws and you’re not going to shoot you PB just because of a fitting. I would say that ‘categories’ exist within the equipment chosen based on the fitter assessment of swing and the fitter will have their biases. My fitter tended to push (push May be a bit strong... suggest) higher cost shafts and options were kept to 3-4 max.... obviously you do not have enough time to test every possible combination.... let’s be reasonable.... so fitter knowledge / expertise & even preference are still in play in my mind. But overall has been well worth it.... in fact, I plan to have another fitting at CC due to some swing changes related to injury... my perspective is it can’t hurt and only help provide more data and info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Et Tu Brute? View Post
    It's fun to throw out numbers but I've never seen it in the real world. Among the few people I've known who have done a "serious" driver fitting (i.e. going to The Kingdom, being fit by a Club Champion type setup, etc.) the best I've seen is an extra 5-10 yards of distance and a vague feeling that "I think I'm hitting it straighter". I don't see handicaps go down, I don't see them hitting shorter clubs into greens, I don't see guys who drive it in the trees suddenly keeping it between the tree lines every hole.

    I have met a couple of good club-level players (scratch or better) who have fine-tuned their driver game through equipment and ball fitting. But they were looking for fairly small improvements on an already solid game off the tee. I think that is totally available in most cases once a player has the swing basics cover and is looking for an equipment optimization, even if it's pretty subtle.

    The only time in my life I've ever seen a guy shed multiple strokes off his handicap with a driver change was 15-20 years ago. The last holdout with a steel-shafted sub-200cc driver among my regular playing group at the time (these were hacks like me at a public course that was basically a cow pasture) finally got a Great Big Bertha or whatever it was. He went from missing half a dozen fairways a round and driving it 180-190 to hitting about 90% of his fairways and driving it 200+. Almost immediately his index dropped from 12 to 10 with literally no change except that one club.

    If we were talking about that kind of difference then, for an avid golfer, even a $600+ custom-fitted driver might make perfect sense. But replacing one 45-1/2" 460cc titanium driver that works fairly well with an "optimized" 45-1/2" 460cc titanium driver is not going to mean hitting five more fairways a round or dropping multiple strokes off your index. It just doesn't happen.
    Maybe I'm cynical, but I just haven't seen anyone revolutionize their game with custom fitting. I'm not saying that you shouldn't hit some balls on a launch monitor and maybe try a couple different shafts/lengths to see what you like - that stuff is so widely available. But, most guys in my game lose strokes because they hit an iron 6 inches behind the ball or hit driver sideways into lakes or OB. Those things don't magically disappear with a $300 shaft or irons that are 1/2" short, 2 flat, and +1/64 grip size.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebute View Post
    Maybe I'm cynical, but I just haven't seen anyone revolutionize their game with custom fitting. I'm not saying that you shouldn't hit some balls on a launch monitor and maybe try a couple different shafts/lengths to see what you like - that stuff is so widely available. But, most guys in my game lose strokes because they hit an iron 6 inches behind the ball or hit driver sideways into lakes or OB. Those things don't magically disappear with a $300 shaft or irons that are 1/2" short, 2 flat, and +1/64 grip size.
    That's me in a nutshell. For a couple months one time I kept a sheet of paper at home and after every round I'd write down the number of strokes I was over par along with the number of shots like you describe (into water, deep into the wood, fatted irons, bladed wedges, only the truly terrible shots). Turns out the competely horrible shots made up 60-something percent of all my stroke over par. At the time I was about a 22 handicap and it was around 14 awful duffs per round.

    So even if a fitting could save half of the other eight strokes (shots that were at least halfway decent but still not good enough) that's like four strokes. And in reality it can't even do that.

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    A fitting doesn't have to be about stopping crazy misses. It could be as simple as lie angle helping you get slightly closer to the hole. Or minimizing the miss through easier to square impact.
    The idea that its black and white and has to shave X amount of strokes off a round (although it very well could) is rather interesting.

    The example of 2 degrees flat was given. If someone should be 2 degrees flat and is playing clubs at standard, the differential with repeatability is quite noticeable. In fact very much so, in terms of both distance and miss as well as far better consistency.
    In my 2018 #TheGrandaddy THP Event Bag

    Driver:
    Epic Flash w/ Helium Shaft 45"
    Driver 2: XXIO Prime w/
    Custom THP HZRDUS Shaft 43.5"
    Fairway Wood:
    JGR
    Hybrids:
    Launcher HB
    Irons: Apex 19 w/ Recoil Proto 95
    Wedges:
    CBX 50* and RTX-4 56* & 60* PM Grind 19
    Putter:
    #7S
    Balls:
    Chrome Soft X

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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB View Post
    It pretty much is an article for Club Champion.
    Im not sure that changes the thoughts though. Leadbetter has been a fitting advocate for well over a decade and DA could certainly say buy off the rack.
    I agree with the sentiment that club fitting is beneficial. I just didn't care for the article coming across as a puff piece for club champion.

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    My questions is, do people make compensations with their swings to adjust to ill fitting clubs? Maybe not knowingly even. I think that irons and wedges matter most. My miss was left with shorter clubs and wedges. Turns out I needed a flatter lie angle. So now instead of compensating for the left shot i was able to aim more at the target.

    With a driver I want fairways and will give up a club length in iron shot to get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevens24 View Post
    My questions is, do people make compensations with their swings to adjust to ill fitting clubs? Maybe not knowingly even. I think that irons and wedges matter most. My miss was left with shorter clubs and wedges. Turns out I needed a flatter lie angle. So now instead of compensating for the left shot i was able to aim more at the target.

    With a driver I want fairways and will give up a club length in iron shot to get it.
    Absolutely. This is why when doing shaft fittings, you want to take just a handful swings with each before the body will start adjusting. Lie angle is a different beast. While it can be overcome, ill fitting lie angle can lead to some inconsistencies.
    In my 2018 #TheGrandaddy THP Event Bag

    Driver:
    Epic Flash w/ Helium Shaft 45"
    Driver 2: XXIO Prime w/
    Custom THP HZRDUS Shaft 43.5"
    Fairway Wood:
    JGR
    Hybrids:
    Launcher HB
    Irons: Apex 19 w/ Recoil Proto 95
    Wedges:
    CBX 50* and RTX-4 56* & 60* PM Grind 19
    Putter:
    #7S
    Balls:
    Chrome Soft X

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