Do you think using stats and data studies really helps you get better?

rollin

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Not at all limited to, but a couple recent threads got me thinking how many people feel that stats and/or data studies make them better. Recently we have the thread with the study about irons play percentages. We most recently have another about distance in feet putted. Not just those two threads , but we often enough and almost pretty regularly through the years have threads about the different stats we may or not keep, and also sometimes we post of data studies and sort of use those for the same purpose.

I totally understand that keeping stats can be fun. And so can reading about interesting data facts and many people like to do it just for the sake of it or simply to be more rounded with knowledge. I generally keep a small record of a couple few things on my own score card for that round as im playing it for review after the round but after that its in the trash.

Whether stats or data studies are about GIR's , FW's, putting feet, up/downs, etc you name it the list can go on for a while and we can even make our own stats for whatever we may like. Its all fine and dandy, right?

But here is the one part i dont really get. actually two or three parts. First one being is, do you really need a kept stat to tell you where you been lacking? i ask that because I dont get how one couldnt know which areas of their game is lacking. I mean so you play a round/s of golf,....if you dont keep any stats you would really have no clue how you did in each area of the game? I find it pretty hard "not" to know how good or poorly I was at any part of my game. I dont need a stat to tell me that my chipping has been bad or good, or that my tee game has been bad or good, etc... I just think most anyone has to know how they been doing without needing the stat to show them.

Another things is that most every stats and even data info studies can be misleading because it is often skewed. Just one small example could be using a stat like up/down (or scramble). Many would want to use that stat to tell them how their green side cipping/short pitching game is doing. But it doesnt take into account anything outside of par. I mean you can miss 4 U/D attempts for par today but you did get U/D 6 of 7 times for bogey or even worse as you were sitting 3 or more before beginning your U/D attempt but thats not accounted for in a traditional scramble stat. . i can go on with a couple more things about just how that one stats can be very skewed if you think its going to tell you about your greenside game. But this is not about the one stat and was just one small example to make the point of how stats can be misleading. This would hold true for many stats.

lastly,....just because you know (or learned) that your lacking in a given area of play does not in itself make you any better at it. I mean people might say due to GIR stats that they are not hitting enough greens. Well, (as said) i think you would already know this without keeping the actual stat. But also, simply knowing this does not make you better at it. I mean its not like as if you are to be so thankful that the stat told you to hit more greens and now that it did you will magically start to hit more of them. I see many times in enough threads where people will sort of imply that now they will be better at something simply because of some stats. It not like ability all a sudden will now be better. I mean just the one stat of GIR is that not something we all try to do all the time anyway? Knowing the numbers doesnt make you better at it. Putting?irons?tees?chips? whatever it is, we dont need stats in order to get better and we know where we are lacking most imo anyway and we most all try to be as good as we can with that lacking area and any parts of it all.
 
I think it can aid in identifying weaknesses. As far as making you better, that's on the player to address that issue. While in the heat of the moment, you may remember a few bad shots and tell yourself that you need to work on something specific. All to many times, you hit another shot just perfect later in the round and it erases that bad memory. It will give a player averages and tendencies that they may otherwise not see on their own. I don't personally take stats. I probably should. But, I just haven't really found a good system that I think I would stick to to make the data reliable.

While it can be overdone. I think it's a good way to target areas for improvement. Some stats are more worthwhile than others I suppose.
 
Yes I do. I think actually knowing how far you hit a club verses how far you think you hit a club can make a huge difference in how you play. Also knowing if you miss left or miss right can be a big help when aiming off the tee imo.
 
Stats are super useful in identifying parts of your game that you never thought you struggled with. For example you may think your irons were really poor that day, when in fact you were putting it in the rough or semi-rough on the tee. Not necessarily in trouble or off the planet, but just missing.

Also you could say your chipping let you down, but it was your missed iron shot, the missed iron shot was caused by a poor tee shot. God this can go on
 
Reading articles about general trends / other people's stats? Nope, doesn't help.

Keeping FW / GIR / Putts on a scorecard? No, that's not detailed enough to help anyone (really).

Something like Arccos? Absolutely helps. It shows you where you're actually losing shots, without any selective memory effects allowing the data to be clouded. It's still on you to put the data to work, but if you play ten rounds and find out you're coming up short of the green 75% of the time it's pretty easy to just pull more club.
 
Yes I do. I think actually knowing how far you hit a club verses how far you think you hit a club can make a huge difference in how you play. Also knowing if you miss left or miss right can be a big help when aiming off the tee imo.

This is a big thing for me. For example I know my average carry with driver is 250, this can go way higher if I hose one, but if something has a 250-270 carry it's a no go. My little Bushnell Phantom has really helped me with picking shots off the tee because of this
 
Reading articles about general trends / other people's stats? Nope, doesn't help.

Keeping FW / GIR / Putts on a scorecard? No, that's not detailed enough to help anyone (really).

Something like Arccos? Absolutely helps. It shows you where you're actually losing shots, without any selective memory effects allowing the data to be clouded. It's still on you to put the data to work, but if you play ten rounds and find out you're coming up short of the green 75% of the time it's pretty easy to just pull more club.
but honestly if through 10 rounds your short 75% of the time, how would you possibly not know that anyway? I mean you may not know its exactly 75% but you are certain to know well that its majority. And more than enough to understand to club longer.
 
but honestly if through 10 rounds your short 75% of the time, how would you possibly not know that anyway? I mean you may not know its exactly 75% but you are certain to know well that its majority. And more than enough to understand to club longer.

It’s really easy to lie to yourself.

There was a video on WRX lately where a very low cap had his Arccos data reviewed by Claude Harmon. Even with the data he was ignoring his miss with the irons.

Ego is a powerful thing.


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Stats are super useful in identifying parts of your game that you never thought you struggled with. For example you may think your irons were really poor that day, when in fact you were putting it in the rough or semi-rough on the tee. Not necessarily in trouble or off the planet, but just missing.

Also you could say your chipping let you down, but it was your missed iron shot, the missed iron shot was caused by a poor tee shot. God this can go on

but the things you mention are pretty much (almost exactly) what i refer to when i say stats are skewed. Stats need to be broken down into so many sub categories in order to weed out the skewing and to be much better at telling us anything specific.
 
but honestly if through 10 rounds your short 75% of the time, how would you possibly not know that anyway? I mean you may not know its exactly 75% but you are certain to know well that its majority. And more than enough to understand to club longer.

With his system it also includes distance and what club he hits, this isn't taken over 10 rounds either, he could check his stats after 1 round and be like, damn I was short on a lot of greens today.
Then he can ask himself, what type of clubs was this with, was I striking it poorly, was I hitting out of rough or on the fairway, was it especially windy today and I just couldn't keep the ball down.

Stats alone are useless, what you do with them is how you learn.
 
It’s really easy to lie to yourself.

There was a video on WRX lately where a very low cap had his Arccos data reviewed by Claude Harmon. Even with the data he was ignoring his miss with the irons.

Ego is a powerful thing.


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ego is certainly powerful thing i agree. But imo we know when we are lying to our selves even if we are doing it. IDK maybe im just more humble than the next guy.
 
but honestly if through 10 rounds your short 75% of the time, how would you possibly not know that anyway? I mean you may not know its exactly 75% but you are certain to know well that its majority. And more than enough to understand to club longer.

That's true but I think a great many of us have become reliant on data in so many aspects of life that we want it in golf. If for nothing else for confirmation of what we think we recall. You also get a more specific and accurate depiction of how much we are short with each club. If I rely on my memory to let me know if I was short 75% of the time, will I remember the specific information for each shot that Arccos provides or other details that reviewing the Arccos info might help me remember? Was I hitting a full shot? Was I playing a 40 yard shot with a 7 iron? All that helps me with game management. Does it make me better? I think so. And that's really all that matters, even if it is a placebo effect.
 
ego is certainly powerful thing i agree. But imo we know when we are lying to our selves even if we are doing it. IDK maybe im just more humble than the next guy.

Having used these systems for several years, I can guarantee that until you use one you don’t know your game as well as you think you do. (Not you specifically, but I think this is generally true)


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Having used these systems for several years, I can guarantee that until you use one you don’t know your game as well as you think you do. (Not you specifically, but I think this is generally true)


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fair enough and thanks, But also...the thread was not specifically about the one system yet is also about general stat keeping or info gathering that people receive and use.
 
Stats showed Dustin Johnson as one of the worst wedge players on Tour a few years ago.
He’s used Trackman and stats to become one of the best.

Arccos has sure opened my eyes to my major weaknesses and true distances with my clubs.
 
People learn different ways. Some by feel/vision, others by numbers/data.

I have HS golfers who can't figure out what they are doing by just doing it, but I make them record data/stats it clicks immediately.

We all learn, and improve, differently.
 
People learn different ways. Some by feel/vision, others by numbers/data.

I have HS golfers who can't figure out what they are doing by just doing it, but I make them record data/stats it clicks immediately.

We all learn, and improve, differently.

I was a feel golfer, guessing at yardages with sprinklers in the ground and 150 markers, but after getting my little phantom it's helped my game so much in knowing my yardages with each club.
 
But here is the one part i dont really get. actually two or three parts. First one being is, do you really need a kept stat to tell you where you been lacking? i ask that because I dont get how one couldnt know which areas of their game is lacking. I mean so you play a round/s of golf,....if you dont keep any stats you would really have no clue how you did in each area of the game? I find it pretty hard "not" to know how good or poorly I was at any part of my game. I dont need a stat to tell me that my chipping has been bad or good, or that my tee game has been bad or good, etc... I just think most anyone has to know how they been doing without needing the stat to show them.

.


Thing is..people DON't know. They THINK they know...but often not. My playing partner is a great example.

When it is time to chip, he loves, loves, loves his 4i. He is sure he is really good with it because he has hit 4 or 5 pretty good chips with it through the years. He has hit, and I am not exaggerating, HUNDREDS of bad chips with it. He tends to practice the stroke beautifully, step up, over-backswing, realize it on the downswing, try to slow his swing and hit it thin. Trying a 10 yard chip he picks his ball up from 30 yards the other side of the green. Again and again and again. Because he remembers the 1 good one a month and since we play mine on the rest, those don't matter and don't enter his mind.

I actually pointed this out to him, convinced him to try his pitching wedge and 9i a few times to get a little loft and less roll. He was overall far more accurate...most were on the green somewhere. But he hit one bad one and instantly went back to using his 4i because "I chip really well with this."

Objectively, demonstrably false. But he doesn't track and only remembers the good ones.


He is not an outlier. I see so many people that do this. I have to watch myself to make sure I am not getting trapped in that. Tracking puts it on paper, then I know what to work on.
 
This is a big thing for me. For example I know my average carry with driver is 250, this can go way higher if I hose one, but if something has a 250-270 carry it's a no go. My little Bushnell Phantom has really helped me with picking shots off the tee because of this

My course has 2 long par 4's with dog legs right. I really need to hit a driver, but I know I generally put right to left action on the ball and they both close up very quickly on the left side. It forces me to hit a 3 wood even though I still have 200 left to go on both of them from shot 2. Having a clear view of the green from 200 is better than being 170 and punching from under a tree.
 
I think it depends. Data can only show you your strengths and weaknesses. Knowing you miss 50% of greens either left or right isn't going to make you a better iron player. But at least it gives you something to work on.
 
I generally tend to lean towards the "subjective" side of things.
Feel, confidence, concentration, mental toughness, etc

Anything that gives you (the illusion of) control is a commodity that can be sold.
Statistical Analysis has crept into the amateur arena thanks to it's dominance in pro sports.
I totally get what the OP is trying to say in terms of everyday golfers actually being able to act on the data.

Do I keep an eye on the numbers? Yes but only to a point.
 
Initial stat tracking with Arccos was very helpful, I was able to find out not only where I was weak, but actually where I was strong as well. It showed me I was playing certain courses the wrong way and not using my strengths. I always thought I was a bad putter but I found out I was a very good putter, I was a crappy wedge/iron player and didn't get the ball in the right position on approaches. My GIR was awesome, but it was a GIR in the most useless spot.

After a while, it was just telling me things I knew and it was more novelty than useful. So to one of your questions, telling you what you know isn't necessarily useful but sometimes you don't know what you know and you may think you're good at something and bad at others and it could be totally opposite.
 
Just like with anything, it works for some and not for others and you have to use them appropriately.
 
I think it can be helpful for better players. My issues right now are swing issues, not decision-making and strategy issues. Data won't help that.
 
It’s really easy to lie to yourself.

There was a video on WRX lately where a very low cap had his Arccos data reviewed by Claude Harmon. Even with the data he was ignoring his miss with the irons.

Ego is a powerful thing.


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sometimes it's difficult to take a real hard look. It's easier to make excuses such as bad lies, difficult conditions, wind, and so forth. Also way easier to romanticize your performance down the road and think it's not all that bad. Now I don't use arccos(yet), but I would have to imagine being able to stare at those facts/data over a good number of rounds would probably motivate me to work on those areas of the game.
 
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