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Flag in or out, how would YOU test.

chriso97

chriso97

Mad Golfer
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Dec 21, 2017
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Location
Perth, Western Australia
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4.6
We've seen the conflicting data from multiple sources.
I'm actually keen to do my own testing.... Anyone with me???

@JB any chance we could this as a THP event??? I'd love to be a part of something that leaves a legacy for all golfers and contributes to the wider discussion.

As a community, surely we have the capacity, resources and desire to decide on and run the greatest test ever.

Using my background science is pretty simple
1- hypothesis
2- plan experiment
3- run experiment
4- analyse results
5- conclusion.

So Step 1
Having the flag IN is of benefit to golfers.

Step 2 ?
How can we test this "properly"?



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Watch Byron DeChambeau on Feherty. He covers this topic pretty well.
 
What do you think is the absolute maximum difference in vs. out could make in your scores, on a consistent average basis? I can't imagine it would average anywhere near a stroke a round. Maybe a stroke every three or four rounds (if any difference exists at all).

I wouldn't waste 10 minutes, much less 10+ hours, trying to run a series of tests to decide whether one method or the other offers a 3/10 of a stroke advantage to my game. What's the best outcome, that I'd figure out the optimum method and knock 0.3 strokes off my handicap index? I could do that by spending 5 minutes before every round in the practice bunker.

P.S. And any question which requires listening to DeShampoo prattle on like a mad scientist is a question that doesn't need answering IMO.
 
I would argue I've been testing this method while practicing golf for the last 25 years.

Not sure we (as flawed golfers) could be exact enough to validate some of the excellent work already presented to us in both text and video based assessments. I'm using my experiences alongside some visual evidence to suggest that inside of 35 feet I am going to pull the pin 100% of the time (tap ins not considered) because of two reasons:

1 - I do not putt at the hole with significant speed, and if I do, it was a terrible putt on my part
2 - Of the maybe 1-2 samples during the year where I putt too aggressively and it pops up through the hole, I have 20 samples of hitting the pin with reasonable speed and it vomiting up the ball.

It should be person specific. At the end of the day, doing one or the other could mean added confidence and you cannot put a real percentage on putting confidence.
 
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Canadan said:
It should be person specific. At the end of the day, doing one or the other could mean added confidence and you cannot put a real percentage on putting confidence.
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I don't disagree with this , however if you know that you are better off does that not inspire confidence?

I know that (as a flawed golfer) I would love to prove to myself that I am maximising my chances of success.







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Et Tu Brute? said:
What do you think is the absolute maximum difference in vs. out could make in your scores, on a consistent average basis? I can't imagine it would average anywhere near a stroke a round. Maybe a stroke every three or four rounds (if any difference exists at all).

I wouldn't waste 10 minutes, much less 10+ hours, trying to run a series of tests to decide whether one method or the other offers a 3/10 of a stroke advantage to my game. What's the best outcome, that I'd figure out the optimum method and knock 0.3 strokes off my handicap index? I could do that by spending 5 minutes before every round in the practice bunker.

P.S. And any question which requires listening to DeShampoo prattle on like a mad scientist is a question that doesn't need answering IMO.
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In my opinion, ANY advantage I can get is worth it.

I think that how much difference it makes is a great question that hasn't been answered. This is something that is measurable and should be part of the conclusion.

Everything is testable if you do it right. You might be surprised.

If it was worth a stroke a round, would you do it ? What if it was 2, or 3?

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I tend to overthink and over-analyze things already, so I wouldn't -- and won't -- do any objective testing. For me, it's psychological thing. I don't know WHY, but I do know that leaving the pin in makes me more confident standing over putts. I think I aim a little more precisely (at least on relatively straight putts; that certainly doesn't apply on big side swingers). The stick gives me a very specific target to aim for, and is easier to pick out than a blade of grass or a spot along the rim. And it seems like I put more confident stroke on the ball. Maybe it is because I view the stick like a backstop, and don't worry about hitting the putt a little too firmly.

From what I see playing with friends and strangers alike......
The better the golfer, the longer they've playing golf "seriously," and/or the older the person......the more likely they are to still pull the pin. I've got buddies between 2 and +5 handicaps, they act like the flag being in is a repulsive sight to them. There are guys at my club in their 70s who have been golfing for 50+ years, and they pull it too. Probably too weird looking for them to switch after all this time. I don't know.

For me, I've only started playing/practicing consistently in the last 2+ years, so I don't have decades of confidence staring at a flag-less hole.
 
I find myself wanting it out under 5 feet. Beyond that I felt I was fine with having it in. It gave my confidence to hit the ball a bit firmer, however the consequence of that is the ball would go too far past the hole if I miss it.


So, I’m still figuring it out.


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It’s an intriguing idea but I’m not sure what more could be done in terms of testing. We could design an experiment to include multiple putts from multiple breaks and distances, which would take an extraordinarily long time.

And even if we had the resources to do so, the results would still be debated and scrutinized by those who already have their bias.


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If I actually had the huge amount of time required to do an extensive test my scores (either way) would benefit far more from using that time towards chipping or putting practice than it ever would the amount of times a pin (in or out) would help.
 
rollin said:
If I actually had the huge amount of time required to do an extensive test my scores (either way) would benefit far more from using that time towards chipping or putting practice than it ever would the amount of times a pin (in or out) would help.
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True , but will you :)

This is an interesting challenge, I'm working on something, hope to have my idea finished this weekend.


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I think we'd have to start by revising the hypothosis. Right now it's ambiguous. Golfers has not been defined. All golfers of all handicaps everywhere in the world or some segment of the golfing population? Then what does benefit mean in this context? Keep in mind that the broader your definition the more complex the experiment becomes.
 
chriso97 said:
In my opinion, ANY advantage I can get is worth it.

I think that how much difference it makes is a great question that hasn't been answered. This is something that is measurable and should be part of the conclusion.

Everything is testable if you do it right. You might be surprised.

If it was worth a stroke a round, would you do it ? What if it was 2, or 3?

Sent from my Lenovo P2a42 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

There's no way it's worth anything near a stroke a round. Or even half a stroke.

As I said, I could gain a few tenths of a stroke a round just by spending 30 minutes in the practice bunker once a month. And it's highly unlikely the flagstick in or out makes even that much difference.
 
The evidence presented in the latest Golf Digest is very compelling and makes sense to me. I also have thousands of data points from playing and practicing for 40 years. I’ve seen thousands of putts go in without the flagstick that were traveling fast enough to finish 10 feet or more past the hole. I’ve also seen hundreds of greenside chip shots moving at a slower speed( that would have finished 5’ feet or less past the hole) bounce off the flagstick. I’ve seen both of these happen multiple times this year already after a dozen rounds. Yesterday a guy in my group hit a great chip from about 40 feet and it bounced off the flagstick and finished less than 2 feet from the hole. If he had asked to have it pulled I’m sure it would have had a good chance of going in . I’m a die it at the hole putter so in our out could only make a difference if I hit a very poor putt, but to my eye the hole looks bigger with the flagstick out so I’ll be removing it when inside of 25 feet. I want to see as much of that real estate as I can for confidence. I also find the flag flapping in the wind and/or the shadow of the flagstick in my line distracting when inside 15 feet so that gives me a couple more reasons to pull it. I could care less what other do.
 
Technically one can never truly say what a putt would have done "if" this or that or "if" anything. Reason being is because the putt did what it did in the environment that took place and is not anything else other than the putt it was. There is no way to know with 100% certainty it would have done "x" if not for this or that (including the pin). You can give it the odds of a different scenario (provided they are known fact) but you cant say for certain what it "would have" done because you just wont know which side of those odds the putt would have fallen on and nothing is ever truly exactly the same anyway.
 
rollin said:
Technically one can never truly say what a putt would have done "if" this or that or "if" anything. Reason being is because the putt did what it did in the environment that took place and is not anything else other than the putt it was. There is no way to know with 100% certainty it would have done "x" if not for this or that (including the pin). You can give it the odds of a different scenario (provided they are known fact) but you cant say for certain what it "would have" done because you just wont know which side of those odds the putt would have fallen on and nothing is ever truly exactly the same anyway.
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I saw a good example of this yesterday. A player hit their putt with too much pace and it hit the flag on the high side bouncing off the flag and coming to rest about 2 feet beyond the cup. The player who hit the putt and another asserted that the flag hurt them in that instance. That the putt would have gone in without the flag.

They didn't know this. For the player, this might come under the heading of 'wishful thinking'. The ball could have horseshoed and ended up 5 or more feet from the cup. It may have gone in. It may have deflected and ended up 5 feet away. The player might have perceived the putt differently without the flag leading to a slightly different read and a completely different putt. There are lots of possibilities with a putt as described and no way to know under those circumstances what would have happened without the flag with any certainty.
 
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rollin said:
Technically one can never truly say what a putt would have done "if" this or that or "if" anything. Reason being is because the putt did what it did in the environment that took place and is not anything else other than the putt it was. There is no way to know with 100% certainty it would have done "x" if not for this or that (including the pin). You can give it the odds of a different scenario (provided they are known fact) but you cant say for certain what it "would have" done because you just wont know which side of those odds the putt would have fallen on and nothing is ever truly exactly the same anyway.
Click to expand...

Yep, I can't say with 100% certainty, but I can make a very educated guess based on all the "too fast" putts I've seen disappear into the hole over the years vs. the "make speed" chips I've seen bounce out. I have way more data points than most golfers having logged 3600+ rounds and holing lots of chip shots(4 this year so far in 15 rounds). In an hour-long practice chipping session, something I do more than once per week and something in my youth I did 12+ hours each week, I get to see a lot of chip shots bounce off the stick and not go in as I never pull the stick when practicing on the chipping green. Wednesday I hit chip/bunker shots for over an hour and holed about 15 and had at least 6 bounce off the flagstick and not go in. Only one of those 6 was "too fast" by my estimaton. I figured out as a teenager that the stick can cause a golf ball to bounce out of the hole when it otherwise would have had a chance. If I could hit the dead center of the flagstick all the time, I'd leave it in when chipping but I'm not that good. I know you have made up your mind on this topic, so we will have to agree to disagree. I have a tee time to get to... :act-up:
 
I think it’s good the OP wants to do a scientific test. However, I’m inclined to believe Dave Pelz and his scientific tests...and conclusions. All done many years ago. Thus saving yourself time.

His results: leave the pin in.
 
Im still of the mind that it doesnt much matter either way. If that ball is moving fast enough to ricochet off the flagstick and not go in, its not going to go in if the flag isnt there either.
It doesnt take much science to realize that and it really should be much of a debate. IMO, all this nonsense about flag in vs flag out is nothing more than change and people resisting change.
 
rollin said:
Technically one can never truly say what a putt would have done "if" this or that or "if" anything. Reason being is because the putt did what it did in the environment that took place and is not anything else other than the putt it was. There is no way to know with 100% certainty it would have done "x" if not for this or that (including the pin). You can give it the odds of a different scenario (provided they are known fact) but you cant say for certain what it "would have" done because you just wont know which side of those odds the putt would have fallen on and nothing is ever truly exactly the same anyway.
Click to expand...

tahoebum said:
Yep, I can't say with 100% certainty, but I can make a very educated guess based on all the "too fast" putts I've seen disappear into the hole over the years vs. the "make speed" chips I've seen bounce out. I have way more data points than most golfers having logged 3600+ rounds and holing lots of chip shots(4 this year so far in 15 rounds). In an hour-long practice chipping session, something I do more than once per week and something in my youth I did 12+ hours each week, I get to see a lot of chip shots bounce off the stick and not go in as I never pull the stick when practicing on the chipping green. Wednesday I hit chip/bunker shots for over an hour and holed about 15 and had at least 6 bounce off the flagstick and not go in. Only one of those 6 was "too fast" by my estimaton. I figured out as a teenager that the stick can cause a golf ball to bounce out of the hole when it otherwise would have had a chance. If I could hit the dead center of the flagstick all the time, I'd leave it in when chipping but I'm not that good. I know you have made up your mind on this topic, so we will have to agree to disagree. I have a tee time to get to... :act-up:
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Good luck for your round :)

i didn't post that last one to try to debate the better/worse scenario. I only posted about how we cant say what anything would have done for sure.

We are both on opposing sides of this and is no secret and is also perfectly fine imo. I think the biggest difference between us is that (from your posts I gather) you believe the difference is much more significant than I do. I do not believe either way is gong to be enough to change anyone's handicap. You see......whichever way one believes it helps more than hurts , there are still times it helps the other way too. So not only is the help imo not so dominating a thing but then we'd have to consider the times (even if less) that it helps us the other way. That in itself even further diminishes what I feel is already only a minor benefit at best in the first place. Especially if one is a good putter of the ball.

I honestly feel we have more to gain by just having a smoother flow around and on the greens via no one ever having to bother with or deal with handling the pin. I think that has more value than any actual benefit to scoring will because I think its just that minimal anyway.
 
This is how I've tested. By just doing it.

Only once have I had the pin screw me out of a birdie. I didn't even hit the putt hard and it wound up 2 inches behind the cup.

Now I've lost count how many times I've had the pin save me. Whether it drops in for a par or birdie, hits the stick and goes a couple of feet left or right that, etc.

So despite all the propaganda of science & statistics...I will leave the pin in 100% of the time unless the flag is leaning one way due to wind.
 
CobraX51 said:
This is how I've tested. By just doing it.

Only once have I had the pin screw me out of a birdie. I didn't even hit the putt hard and it wound up 2 inches behind the cup.

Now I've lost count how many times I've had the pin save me. Whether it drops in for a par or birdie, hits the stick and goes a couple of feet left or right that, etc.

So despite all the propaganda of science & statistics...I will leave the pin in 100% of the time unless the flag is leaning one way due to wind.
Click to expand...

I think this is how you gotta do it. On course, real conditions, personal results based.
 
SlightDraw said:
I think this is how you gotta do it. On course, real conditions, personal results based.
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That's it man. I haven't read one article that's been posted on the statistics of length of putt percentage with the pin in or out. I don't care.

To me it's an advantage. If you're going to allow me to get help from this game by having this advantage I'm going to take it. Just like I do with my rangefinder with slope always turned ON. I'm going to take advantage of any perk I can get on the golf course.
 
From my experience at my club, half of the members keep the flag in at all times. The other take it out. there is a small faction that leaves it in for long putts and removes for shorts putts.

From a time saving stand point, it does not exist in my opinion. Slow golfers are slow and leaving the flag in has not quickened rounds with them. We have several groups that regularly finished an hour behind the rest of us every round. I have been stuck in these groups and it is a nightmare.

Now when I play alone, I leave the flag in and i can get around 18 holes playing two balls in 1.5 hours. I play as a fivesome with some members, we remove the flag and lap the field. We line up our shots, choose clubs, change our minds, pull another club and have a blast. We still lap these slow players in our group.

My approach isn't scientific but after 36 years of playing this game I have become very aware of my golf surroundings and those I play with. SLOW PLAY IS A PERSONAL ISSUE, not a flag in or out issue.
 
chriso97 said:
We've seen the conflicting data from multiple sources.
I'm actually keen to do my own testing.... Anyone with me???

@JB any chance we could this as a THP event??? I'd love to be a part of something that leaves a legacy for all golfers and contributes to the wider discussion.

As a community, surely we have the capacity, resources and desire to decide on and run the greatest test ever.

Using my background science is pretty simple
1- hypothesis
2- plan experiment
3- run experiment
4- analyse results
5- conclusion.

So Step 1
Having the flag IN is of benefit to golfers.

Step 2 ?
How can we test this "properly"?
Click to expand...

How to test properly? One needs to have enough tests to be statistically significant. Say 500 putts per tester with the pin in (on multiple greens and from different distances) and an equal amount from the same distances/locations with the pin out. After these thousands of tests, the data needs to be collated to see if there is a difference, and if it is significant. This isn't an easy task. One has to take into consideration how many times the pin deflects the ball away from the hole and also how often the pin causes the ball to stay in the hole. Compare that to how many putts from an equal distance roll past the hole, or drop in without the pin. One also has to take into consideration ball speed being equal. (This is more easily done mechanically, with a chute aimed towards the hole from varying distances, with the pin either in or out.)
 
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