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If you think it does, tell us about it. If you think it doesn’t, why not and how would you fix it?
Does The Handicap System Work?
SlightDraw
Well-known member
In my time using the handicap system playing against my friends it has worked quite well. We are all types of handicaps and at the end of the round the matches are usually spot on and close. No changes from me... Not even sure what could be done to make it better. Might just be a lateral move.
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I think it works, but only if the player is honest when putting in scores.
rollin
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Hoenstly i dont play in any official events. I basically run a cap for fun and just to belong and as a gauge of where I sit..lol
But i do understand it well and we do discuss it here in many ways through the years enough.
Its not without some flaw and i think course rating and slope system which is where we get it from is not without flaw. But i do think it works for what its supposed to do. That is to allow different ability levels a chance to compete. I dont think there can ever be a perfect system. And this pretty good one is the best we have. I wouldn't really know how to improve upon it without creating different flaws in it. i think there will always be something that doesnt seem quite correct no matter how else it might be done. I think overall it does a good job for its purposes. The fact that different abilities compete against each other in itself is technically a flaw. So most anything one would implant to make that possible would of course hold some flaw. Just the nature of that beast imo.
I think if two honest players (one higher cap than the other) compete and both played their average score (not their cap but their ave score) the lower cap player giving the strokes would win. Reason being is that the higher capper generally has a wider score range which places their average score further apart from the lower cap players average score than the two handicaps indicate. It does that because the HC is best potential. So if both players shoot average score the better lower cap player should barely win even with the strokes given and i think thats the fair way it should be. The system gives the higher player a chance but doesnt give him the win unless he plays better golf than average or the better one plays worse than his average. So the slight edge imo still goes to the lower cap and i thinks thats the way it should be. After all he is the better player.
But i do understand it well and we do discuss it here in many ways through the years enough.
Its not without some flaw and i think course rating and slope system which is where we get it from is not without flaw. But i do think it works for what its supposed to do. That is to allow different ability levels a chance to compete. I dont think there can ever be a perfect system. And this pretty good one is the best we have. I wouldn't really know how to improve upon it without creating different flaws in it. i think there will always be something that doesnt seem quite correct no matter how else it might be done. I think overall it does a good job for its purposes. The fact that different abilities compete against each other in itself is technically a flaw. So most anything one would implant to make that possible would of course hold some flaw. Just the nature of that beast imo.
I think if two honest players (one higher cap than the other) compete and both played their average score (not their cap but their ave score) the lower cap player giving the strokes would win. Reason being is that the higher capper generally has a wider score range which places their average score further apart from the lower cap players average score than the two handicaps indicate. It does that because the HC is best potential. So if both players shoot average score the better lower cap player should barely win even with the strokes given and i think thats the fair way it should be. The system gives the higher player a chance but doesnt give him the win unless he plays better golf than average or the better one plays worse than his average. So the slight edge imo still goes to the lower cap and i thinks thats the way it should be. After all he is the better player.
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The whole idea is a good one. Everyone has different talent levels for many different reasons. It's supposed to level the playing field.
I think it's all about how honest a player is. Unfortunately we all know there are people who abuse the system, both ways!!
What do you do, weight the tournament scores differently?
I think it's all about how honest a player is. Unfortunately we all know there are people who abuse the system, both ways!!
What do you do, weight the tournament scores differently?
It had always felt fair in THP events but I don't have a lot of experience outside that.
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As a baseline I think it absolutely does. As a higher handicap my game will have more variation than a lower handicap but how else would we even begin to figure out how to play against each other? One of my best friends and I golf a ton together, he's pretty close to scratch, and we can pretty much figure out how many strokes he needs to give me to be close in our friendly matches (usually only playing for a drink). If I've been playing well we might adjust a bit at the turn but normally we're pretty close.
Keep in mind we both are pretty honest in reporting our scores, if someone cherry picks which scores to post then it could get a little loopy in either direction. If I move my ball off of a root or do anything that isn't expressly legal in that round I won't post because that will likely lead to a better score and lower handicap than I deserve. Conversely I won't post scores when I'm playing a total practice round since I'm likely hitting more than one ball on certain shots. In league there is a lot of "sandbagger" call outs for some, I've even heard it when I'm playing well, but even then for the most part, I think the system works unless someone is rigging the system in their favor intentionally.
Keep in mind we both are pretty honest in reporting our scores, if someone cherry picks which scores to post then it could get a little loopy in either direction. If I move my ball off of a root or do anything that isn't expressly legal in that round I won't post because that will likely lead to a better score and lower handicap than I deserve. Conversely I won't post scores when I'm playing a total practice round since I'm likely hitting more than one ball on certain shots. In league there is a lot of "sandbagger" call outs for some, I've even heard it when I'm playing well, but even then for the most part, I think the system works unless someone is rigging the system in their favor intentionally.
alexped2393
Member
I think all handicap systems rely on people being honest, there is no way in getting around that major flaw.
bigskyirish
Well-known member
I agree, but I'd add "and actually turns in scores when he/she plays."
In my experience, the not-turning-in-scores offenders tend to be really low/scratch players. I totally get it that a lot of scratch players tend not to turn in scores (or at least not a lot of scores) because they are playing in tournaments where handicaps don't matter. But on more than one occasion, I've seen players who play really frequently turn in 5 or so scores for the whole season. Then they show up in a fall tournament (our member-member is in September) with something like a 0 or 1 when they are really more like a +2 or +3. I don't think they are intending to sandbag at all; they legitimately aren't interested in what their handicap is because they never use it (and their buddies are going to make them play as a +2 or +3 in any sort of money game). That's a digression, I know, but my point is that I think the handicap system works reasonably well as long as everyone who is going to play in a handicapped tournament actually uses the system the way it was intended.
I was listening to this on PGA Radio the other morning and they were discussing some of the changes coming for 2020. I wish it was a bit more average based instead of potential based system. I don't play in any events and just keep a handicap through Grint so buddies and I can wager a few bucks. Even the new changes they proposed (8 best rounds out of 20 instead of 10) still feels more potential based. I see it happen more at our league where my cap is low enough I'm usually giving up strokes each week and my potential could be to shoot that handicap 1 out of 5 weeks but typically I'm giving up strokes and those guys have a better chance of going lower.
I think it could. It definitely does in theory. But, in practice I don’t think it does unless you are very consistent and honest in entering all of your scores. Once people aren’t; then no, it doesn’t work.
It’s kinda like traffic...it just takes a few people not doing things correctly to ruin the whole system.
It’s kinda like traffic...it just takes a few people not doing things correctly to ruin the whole system.
rollin
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8 best instead of 10 actually leans more in favor of the higher capper since the higher capper would generally have a much wider spread in his scoring than the lower player does.
Only if honest and entering the true score without Mulligan's and such. I am not one of those, my hc includes a mulli or two per round. In theory I would just increase my hc by 2 I suppose, but I moreso use it to gauge how MY game (inclusive of the mullis and beer holes and such) is improving.
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rollin
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the thing about dishonesty 9and we are most all mentioning it) is that the system cant really be blamed for that. But only people can be blamed. the system is there to do what it supposed to do. When people cheat the system, its not the system that fails but its the people who fail it.
100%. That’s why I said in theory it should work. No reason it shouldn’t IMO. But, people suck, or are just not sure what all they should or shouldn’t submit. Again, same with traffic. If everyone just did it correctly, we shouldn’t really ever have backups or traffic jams...yet we do. Every single day.
Pretty much sums it up. That and recording all rounds played.
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- #17
Funny you say that. True story that just happened to a friend of mine. Played in his member member this past weekend. Notorious sandbagger comes into the bar and played like garbage. Comes in and says "Effin A, I played like a damn 15 today". Head pro turns to him and says, so you must be thrilled because your handicap says you are a bogey golfer.
I laugh hearing about it, but then think, if he is known to be doing this, throw him out of the tournament until he fixes it.
I’m a bowler and work in the bowling industry. I have to say the golf handicap system far exceeds the bowling average system.
Bowling calculates your season long average while golf is largely based on your trending ability. In other words, a steadily improving bowler will have a distinct advantage over an established bowler. While in golf a steadily improving golfer playing an established golfer will have a more even outcome.
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Bowling calculates your season long average while golf is largely based on your trending ability. In other words, a steadily improving bowler will have a distinct advantage over an established bowler. While in golf a steadily improving golfer playing an established golfer will have a more even outcome.
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- #19
I think the largest reason for that is because when bowling, the lanes are designed to be of the same difficulty, whereas in golf, every single course will be different.
Lions81
Well-known member
I think it does a pretty good job and is one of the few sports where people of hugely different abilities can still play against each other competitively. I do think when using it to play matches, it should only be 80%.
It is flawed, but I do not have much criticism to offer. It is how I'd do it.
That said, wearing a skirt is never fun. I don't care if you call it a kilt.
I'm not scratch but something to be said about the gross part of gowf.
That said, wearing a skirt is never fun. I don't care if you call it a kilt.
I'm not scratch but something to be said about the gross part of gowf.
Funny this topic comes up today. I haven’t really kept an official handicap since 2015 (was an 18 then, probably the same or worse since I’ve had way less time to golf the last few years). For me it sometimes I questioned it, b/c handicap is supposed to be your potential but there was one time back then I shot a 39 for 9 holes (personal best). Most rounds I was usually in the 90’s or high 80’s, which still seemed like I should have had a lower cap.
The past few years I’ve had mostly golf league rounds, and the league had its own rules (fluffing the ball, OB like lateral hazard, etc) so I don’t enter the scores. Other rounds have been solo so under new rules even though I played them by the rules, can’t enter scores for them.
Joined a country club recently so I’m wanting to keep a GHIN again. Just need to get some rounds in (and figure out how to enter ESC scores of I don’t have an official handicap - think I’ll go off the premise I’m still lower than a 20). Also never entered scores through ghin before, so need to make sure I’m doing it correctly. The app I used before you could enter for each hole and it would calculate ESC for you)
The past few years I’ve had mostly golf league rounds, and the league had its own rules (fluffing the ball, OB like lateral hazard, etc) so I don’t enter the scores. Other rounds have been solo so under new rules even though I played them by the rules, can’t enter scores for them.
Joined a country club recently so I’m wanting to keep a GHIN again. Just need to get some rounds in (and figure out how to enter ESC scores of I don’t have an official handicap - think I’ll go off the premise I’m still lower than a 20). Also never entered scores through ghin before, so need to make sure I’m doing it correctly. The app I used before you could enter for each hole and it would calculate ESC for you)
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- #23
I think equitable stroke control and playing from same distance setups allows the system to work perfectly. I do not think using a singular metric for distance (250 for scratch 200 for bogey golfers) is even remotely viable when factoring in different distances. This is heavily applied when golfers play outside their tee it forward distances and then move back inside that number with a constructed handicap. Heavily flawed.
Also, I believe that handicaps are overused for team play. Anything at 70% or more when playing best ball is too much. Handicaps are constructed as individuals and require all holes to be relevant. If only 9 holes are used per player (best ball logic), then the handicap is quite inflated the higher the person's handicap is.
Also, I believe that handicaps are overused for team play. Anything at 70% or more when playing best ball is too much. Handicaps are constructed as individuals and require all holes to be relevant. If only 9 holes are used per player (best ball logic), then the handicap is quite inflated the higher the person's handicap is.
Et Tu Brute?
Well-known member
Things in the USGA Handicap System that work:
1) Having courses rated so that handicaps can reflect the fact that some courses are harder to score on than others.
2) Basing handicaps off a player's best recent scores, while mostly ignoring blowup holes and very bad round scores.
3) Having a standardized formula for computing handicaps, nation wide.
Things in the USGA Handicap System that do NOT work:
1) Accepting any made-up number that the golfer chooses to enter as as "score", with no confirmation by other players.
2) Using scores from rounds that are not played competitively (i.e. rounds for which the golfer has no incentive to score well).
3) Various silly, over-complicated rules about what scores do and don't count, reporting numbers other than an actual score (ESC, etc).
To my thinking, #1 and #2 from the "does NOT work" list completely overwhelm everything on the "works" list, resulting in a ludicrous combination of outright sandbagging, vanity reverse sandbagging and actual legitimate handicapping.
1) Having courses rated so that handicaps can reflect the fact that some courses are harder to score on than others.
2) Basing handicaps off a player's best recent scores, while mostly ignoring blowup holes and very bad round scores.
3) Having a standardized formula for computing handicaps, nation wide.
Things in the USGA Handicap System that do NOT work:
1) Accepting any made-up number that the golfer chooses to enter as as "score", with no confirmation by other players.
2) Using scores from rounds that are not played competitively (i.e. rounds for which the golfer has no incentive to score well).
3) Various silly, over-complicated rules about what scores do and don't count, reporting numbers other than an actual score (ESC, etc).
To my thinking, #1 and #2 from the "does NOT work" list completely overwhelm everything on the "works" list, resulting in a ludicrous combination of outright sandbagging, vanity reverse sandbagging and actual legitimate handicapping.
alexped2393
Member
But surely if everyone is playing by the same h'cap rules then its a level playing field? Usually around here it is 50%