Lead With the Right Elbow

the backswing is so different, but impact is so similar.
 
Funny. I remember in some of my first lessons my instructor showed me this video, and the one where Bobby is giving a lesson to James Cagney and some others. Then this thread popped up, and I was catching Phil's press conference from earlier today where he mentions how if players would approach the golf swing more like Bobby Jones, rather than incorporating a violent movement, they would enjoy longer careers, etc etc.... So I dug this video up again to post here.
 
I can get the same result by pinching my elbows together a little at address. It helps me stay on plane on the way back and the way down. It's a set up fundamental for me.

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Holy smokes I can't believe I've over looked this. I read this thread today and was trying different thoughts to get the right elbow to lead with mixed results.

Then I spent some time doing Hogan's suggestion of keeping the arms as close together as possible and had the best practice session I've probably ever had.
 
Holy smokes I can't believe I've over looked this. I read this thread today and was trying different thoughts to get the right elbow to lead with mixed results.

Then I spent some time doing Hogan's suggestion of keeping the arms as close together as possible and had the best practice session I've probably ever had.

Ive overlooked this as well.
Ive seen people suggest this with a small ball squeezed between the elbows.

Ultimately, I think the right elbow is an often overlooked key to a good, consistent swing.

I really like the lead with the right elbow suggestion by Monte above.
I'm going to try it with the elbows held together today.
Maybe that eliminates the lead with the right elbow feel as Tahoe above suggests.
But I love that right arm feeling like I'm skipping rocks that the 'lead with the right elbow' helps me achieve.
 
Ive overlooked this as well.
Ive seen people suggest this with a small ball squeezed between the elbows.

Ultimately, I think the right elbow is an often overlooked key to a good, consistent swing.

I really like the lead with the right elbow suggestion by Monte above.
I'm going to try it with the elbows held together today.
Maybe that eliminates the lead with the right elbow feel as Tahoe above suggests.
But I love that right arm feeling like I'm skipping rocks that the 'lead with the right elbow' helps me achieve.

I just picked up Hogan's Five Lessons book a few weeks ago and read through it, but have only focused on the grip stuff so far which was pretty much identical with what I was already doing.

I'm always looking for thoughts/feelings to make the swing more successful but also more natural. I've been using the "skipping rocks" idea or using the right hand with a lot of success (for me) for a while now, but it involved more thinking of the hand than right elbow for me. However, I still struggled at times with leaving my arms behind me which led to a block/push or a flip and hook (to varying degrees).

Doing the Hogan move allowed me stop thinking about my hands, right elbow, etc. and produced better, more consistent ball flights.
 
I just picked up Hogan's Five Lessons book a few weeks ago and read through it, but have only focused on the grip stuff so far which was pretty much identical with what I was already doing.

Doing the Hogan move allowed me stop thinking about my hands, right elbow, etc. and produced better, more consistent ball flights.

I typed out a related thread last week, but didn't end up posting it:

Hogan is most often mentioned as the greatest ball striker of his era (or any era).
I've seen people ask which golf instruction book they should read, and Hogan's '5 Lessons' is always the one most often mentioned.

How is it that much of his actual teachings (or some of the key tenets of his teachings) so often seem to be overlooked by so many?

I was reading through his book last week.

His stance:
-I've never heard of anyone, or seen anyone follow his stance/ball positioning ideas.

Left wrist pronates/flexes at impact:
-never hard/read that before

Emphasis on grip (an entire chapter devoted to it):
-most instructors (it seems) will spend less than 5-10 minutes on that.

Is it just me, or does there seem to be far less emphasis on Hogan's teachings than you'd expect to see given his very prominent ball striking ability, and widespread recognition as '5 Lessons' as one of the pre-eminent golf instruction books?
 
I typed out a related thread last week, but didn't end up posting it:

Hogan is most often mentioned as the greatest ball striker of his era (or any era).
I've seen people ask which golf instruction book they should read, and Hogan's '5 Lessons' is always the one most often mentioned.

How is it that much of his actual teachings (or some of the key tenets of his teachings) so often seem to be overlooked by so many?

I was reading through his book last week.

His stance: I've never heard of anyone, or seen anyone follow his stance/ball positioning ideas.

Left wrist pronates/flexes at impact: never hard/read that before

Emphasis on grip (an entire chapter devoted to it): most instructors (it seems) will spend less than 5-10 minutes on that.

Is it just me, or does there seem to be far less emphasis on Hogan's teachings than you'd expect to see given his very prominent ball striking ability?


Hogan's swing was built to help him avoid a hook, which many people in the game don't need to worry about.

As far as grip, the fact instructors don't spend more time on that is a crime. Why swing if you have a bad grip?
 
Hogan's swing was built to help him avoid a hook, which many people in the game don't need to worry about.

As far as grip, the fact instructors don't spend more time on that is a crime. Why swing if you have a bad grip?
Even though Hogan played a fade. You can still play a draw using many of his principles. Mike Bender is one modern teacher that uses alot of Hogan in his teaching. Most if not all of his players are known for hitting draws with Zach Johnson being the most notable. Hogan if memory serves me correctly taught a very weak grip. Which helped in hitting fades.

My instructor who is a Bender protégé. Refers to Hogan at almost every lesson. Even though we are working on hitting draws. IMO Hogan swing thoughts are applicable for every swing regardless of flight.
 
I typed out a related thread last week, but didn't end up posting it:

Hogan is most often mentioned as the greatest ball striker of his era (or any era).
I've seen people ask which golf instruction book they should read, and Hogan's '5 Lessons' is always the one most often mentioned.

How is it that much of his actual teachings (or some of the key tenets of his teachings) so often seem to be overlooked by so many?

I was reading through his book last week.

His stance:
-I've never heard of anyone, or seen anyone follow his stance/ball positioning ideas.

Left wrist pronates/flexes at impact:
-never hard/read that before

Emphasis on grip (an entire chapter devoted to it):
-most instructors (it seems) will spend less than 5-10 minutes on that.

Is it just me, or does there seem to be far less emphasis on Hogan's teachings than you'd expect to see given his very prominent ball striking ability, and widespread recognition as '5 Lessons' as one of the pre-eminent golf instruction books?

Like Ward said, I think most amateur golfers are fighting a slice from an over the top swing. So a lot of Hogan's lessons would lead to big hooks that start left and turn left.

I've never had a coach that mentioned any of Hogan's lessons/ideas. Also, none of them focused on the grip too much. It almost seems like an after thought used by many coaches just to tweak the ball flight you are seeing with your current swing.

I'm very happy with my current instructor who got me swinging in-to-out (too much at times), and he's recommended pronating the left wrist almost from day one. But I can't actively think about it to make it work, instead I have to think about swinging the handle at the ball (as opposed to the club head) and almost that I'm pulling the handle over or swiping it over the ball to obtain the pronated left wrist and forward shaft lean at impact. If I don't think about this I unhinge early and get some degree of hook.

As for his stance suggestions, they just don't work for me at the moment. I can play the ball forward with any club but I already hit the ball high (35-40 yards) and doing so exaggerates the ball height, but generally guarantees a straight shot for me. But as soon as I drop my lead foot back for a wedge shot like he suggests, I hit a straight shot left. Dropping the rear leg back for the driver works for me at times, but I can get stuck sometimes which can lead to an exaggerated block/push shot. So for now I try to keep my stance neutral with all clubs and similar in width and just change ball position from slightly back of center for wedges, center for most irons, a ball forward for long irons/hybrids, two balls for 3 wood, and left heel for driver. The neutral stance seems to do a better job of keep my mis-hits in play.

You can bet though that after finding out how well this "pinching the arms" thought worked for me to keep my arms in front of and in sync with my body that I will be studying his book/lessons much harder over the next few weeks.
 
Back to the OP...from reading the feedback it appears the problem word is "leading". The right elbow ends up in the same position - adjacent to the hip - but that position flows from other moves that come first; the elbow move is not the preferred way to initiate the downswing.
 
I tried this at the range and either I was doing it wrong ( highly possible) or this doesn't work for me. I hit the ball awful thinking about this on my downswing!!
 
Remember this is a feel drill to help shallow the club.
Feels are different ffrom person to person.

This drill is essentially for people like myself who have a habit of pulling down on the handle too early (which gets me really steep).

I'd bet if you watched video footage of my swing now compared to 2 weeks ago, my hips are still leading in transition. It's just a way to stop me from pulling down on the handle.

As a matter of fact, I think (as Tahoe says above) Hogan's elbows close together would essentially accomplish the exact same thing. I think others accomplish the exact same thing by saying swing with the upper arms.

If you're not too steep in transition this feel would likely mess you up.
 
Even though Hogan played a fade. You can still play a draw using many of his principles. Mike Bender is one modern teacher that uses alot of Hogan in his teaching. Most if not all of his players are known for hitting draws with Zach Johnson being the most notable. Hogan if memory serves me correctly taught a very weak grip. Which helped in hitting fades.

My instructor who is a Bender protégé. Refers to Hogan at almost every lesson. Even though we are working on hitting draws. IMO Hogan swing thoughts are applicable for every swing regardless of flight.

i very much agree with this. i don't think hogan's swing is a fade swing at all. i have the privilege of living close to the bender academy and have taken some putting lessons there, and got to talk to mike a bit. he's a very nice guy and the facility is really cool, although they hitched their wagon to a course that changed ownership and took a nose dive in the worst possible way without shutting down entirely. the time i've spent there, and seeing their students on the range and around their practice green gives me the itch to start lessons out there.
 
I agree with you guys as well. Many modern tour pro's that hit draws do not change their swing to hit a fade. They change their setup.

Aim the club face left of the target line, your body even further left, and make the same draw swing (down the body/shoulder line, not the target line).
 
Back to the OP...from reading the feedback it appears the problem word is "leading". The right elbow ends up in the same position - adjacent to the hip - but that position flows from other moves that come first; the elbow move is not the preferred way to initiate the downswing.


Monte posts a lot on another golf forum and he will repeatedly say that he has multiple videos that all try to get the person to swing in the correct sequence. Everyone has different feels and not all the videos will help every person. The body will respond to actions you make and if you feel like you are initiating with the right elbow and swing in proper sequence why not think that way. Another example is his No turn cast drill in which he describes that people will naturally turn correctly when told to move the club back and that trying to cast the club on the downswing will provide the correct amount of lag and correct position at impact.
 
Monte posts a lot on another golf forum and he will repeatedly say that he has multiple videos that all try to get the person to swing in the correct sequence. Everyone has different feels and not all the videos will help every person. The body will respond to actions you make and if you feel like you are initiating with the right elbow and swing in proper sequence why not think that way. Another example is his No turn cast drill in which he describes that people will naturally turn correctly when told to move the club back and that trying to cast the club on the downswing will provide the correct amount of lag and correct position at impact.
I don't visit other golf forums (why bother with second place) but I agree with his multiple "cue" philosophy. A good coach can say just the right thing. Throwing the right elbow may not be the best move, in a vacuum. But his experience tells him that the cue can help initiate the correct sequencing for the down and through swings. Good on him.
 
This concept of the right elbow is going to be different from person-to-person. For me, I know I have a bad habit of leaving the right elbow behind and it end up with an early extension before impact. I may try this one, as I fight a fade and can't seem to get a consistent draw or straight shot. Someone made the comment that said to get the relying of the right elbow chasing the belt buckle as the hips turn. Another said to swing with your belly button.
 
I have to agree with Panda on making the proper body moves(front knee, hips)/weight shift is what shallows the club. It's kind of like the old adage of "holding the lag" or "holding the angles". You don't "hold" anything! Transitioning your body correctly is what "holds" everything together which sets you up to make a tension free whipping motion through the ball.

It's funny how so many tips out there today on how to shallow the club seem to come back to Harvey Penick's "Magic Move" that he taught starting back in the 1940's and 1950's. He talked about the right elbow coming down as a one piece move along with the transition of your weight/lower body to the front foot. Keying in on one single body movement without looking at the swing as a whole and whats happening as a complete unit very rarely helps anyone in my opinion.
 
I will say that Monte has a point and you have to follow his comments close to know that his videos aren't geared toward every player. He has certain videos to correct certain swing faults. This "lead with the right elbow" has help me tremendously and I have even taken an online lesson from him. It works for me because my hips would open up too soon, I'd pull the handle, early extend, get my arms stuck behind my hips, and then have to flip to get to the ball.

Again...every video he has isn't for every person and he openly admits that all the time. This has helped me a whole lot though. Another thing he says with this is that the left arm has to do its job too. He is a regular on golfwrx and I can understand not checking that forum out, but his website is good and his videos are worth while...but not every one is for you!
 
I used this swing thought last time out with some pretty good results. I felt more connected.
 
Hogan's swing was built to help him avoid a hook, which many people in the game don't need to worry about.

As far as grip, the fact instructors don't spend more time on that is a crime. Why swing if you have a bad grip?

I basically learned how to play golf by studying Hogan's book and digging it out of the ground. My parents certainly couldn't afford professional instruction and my dad gave me the book when I was 13 and said "everything you need to know to become a single digit golfer is in this book." Today, I'm still a big fan of most of Hogan's principles, especially his grip and proper hand action. I still read the book every spring when I'm getting serious about my golf season.

IMO, 90% of golfers could improve by making some adjustments on how they grip the club. Most have hands that are too far apart(not as connected to one another as they could be), too much in the palms, or are are too strong with their right hand. His covering of the most or all of the left thumb(see Tiger's grip below) with the right hand is almost universal among pros and not common among mid to higher handicappers.

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I basically learned how to play golf by studying Hogan's book and digging it out of the ground. My parents certainly couldn't afford professional instruction and my dad gave me the book when I was 13 and said "everything you need to know to become a single digit golfer is in this book." Today, I'm still a big fan of most of Hogan's principles, especially his grip and proper hand action. I still read the book every spring when I'm getting serious about my golf season.

IMO, 90% of golfers could improve by making some adjustments on how they grip the club. Most have hands that are too far apart(not as connected to one another as they could be), too much in the palms, or are are too strong with their right hand.
And where did that get you? Out to California where you you blow up 3woods. No thanks. I'll stick to Cheeseland and mediocre golf skill. Thank you very much.
 
And where did that get you? Out to California where you you blow up 3woods. No thanks. I'll stick to Cheeseland and mediocre golf skill. Thank you very much.


Lol :act-up: I've been back to Cheeseland twice in the last few months and will be there again May 9th through the 12th for a work meeting. I hope to sneak in a round of golf at Troy Burne.

As you know, I can't wait to get out of California. 25 months until my daughter graduates and we will be back in God's Country.
 
I just wanted to echo the point made here that Monte uses a variety of cues to help improve someone's swing - and not all cues are designed for a particular swing issue. The lead with the elbow has helped my best friend tremendously (he has picked up a full club with his irons and is more accurate) as he had a problem with OTT and getting steep. I come from the inside too much and flip at impact so this would be a death move for me but Monte has many other cues to deal with my problem.
 
Amazing how flat he can put his left thumb on the shaft. I have a big gap in mine. I like the right elbow thought at times. It is one way I can fix my swing mid round when tired and start coming over the top.
 
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