Dreaded Flip of the Hands

When you mentioned your scores in the first post , I must admit I was surprised, but if it works for you then why mess with it? My best score is 81 but I only play about 10 times a year . Note that only 26% of all golfers in the world break 90 so we aren't doing too badly :)

Because it doesn’t always work, and he has the potential to be an even better player if he gets the root issue fixed?
 
I think I’ve just been doing this for so long that the timing is there for it to be somewhat consistent. Iron play isn’t even my weakest point, I piss strokes away with chipping.


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Ditto , my chipping and putting kills me.
 
Because it doesn’t always work, and he has the potential to be an even better player if he gets the root issue fixed?

100% my thoughts, numerous days where I analyze a scorecard and say to myself “par was a reality here”.

Biggest improvement over the last few years is the driver, I routinely hit 12 / 14 FW’s. However, I’m not long. 250 is the max I hit in normal conditions (save winds downhill etc)


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100% my thoughts, numerous days where I analyze a scorecard and say to myself “par was a reality here”.

Biggest improvement over the last few years is the driver, I routinely hit 12 / 14 FW’s. However, I’m not long. 250 is the max I hit in normal conditions (save winds downhill etc)


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250 with solid iron play will get you around all but the longest tees. Keep grinding.
 
Because it doesn’t always work, and he has the potential to be an even better player if he gets the root issue fixed?

Very true but it could be risky if the analysis of the root cause is found to be flawed (example being my own original analysis). Is there a golf instructor out there who can 100% guarantee they understand cause and effect in the golf swing?
 
Dreaded Flip of the Hands

Very true but it could be risky if the analysis of the root cause is found to be flawed (example being my own original analysis). Is there a golf instructor out there who can 100% guarantee they understand cause and effect in the golf swing?

Why do you think your original analysis is flawed? FWIW I think it’s spot on.
 
Why do you think your original analysis is flawed? FWIW I think it’s spot on.

I sent my original analysis to Dr Mann (see below) but he disagreed and replied back with his own opinion (he is far more experienced about golf biomechanics). I told Daniel to ignore my flawed opinion.

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Dr Mann

What would you regard as the root cause of this golfers flip hand release action and left arm chicken wing ? Is my analysis below a fair reflection of a possible root cause?

My Analysis
Would it be his pivot where he has swayed his pelvis too far forward over his lead leg (ie. hip/knee bypassed outer border of left foot) by P5? He has shifted most of his weight pressure over his left hip and any activation of his pelvic lateral rotary muscles will cause a clockwise rotation (away from the target) , therefore he is kicking his right knee in and/or pushing off his right foot (using his right glute to hip extend) and causing a right hip spinning action. That is blocking his right arm from doing a pitch elbow action (to help retain lag) and he is resorting to a punch elbow move causing early release and straightening of his right wrist with a flipping hand release action. His upper body pivot has also stalled by impact causing a left arm chicken wing through impact.
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Dr Mann's reply is below:

Although his pelvic motion during his early-mid downswing is sub-optimal, I don't think that his imperfect pivot action is causing his pre-impact flipping problem.

I think that his major problem is that he not using a TGM swinging action, and he is probably using a swing-hitter's technique.

Here are capture images from his swing video.

(Note : I can't copy and paste them into this thread for some reason , but you can see the snapshot images on this forum link below)
https://newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/694/dreaded-flip-hands

image 1 is at P4. He has loaded his right-sided lateral pelvic rotator muscles well by driving his right hip joint into internal rotation while maintaining right knee flex. He has a rightwards-centralised upper torso loading pattern. He looks reasonably good at P4.

Image 2 is at P5. I agree that he has too much left-lateral pelvic shift, but his power package is well retained and his right elbow is visible below his left arm, which means that he is adducting his right arm well enough while maintaining a bent right elbow.

Image 3 is at P5.5. Note that he has retained lag well enough using a pitch elbow motion of his right arm.

Image 4 is at impact - where he manifests a bent left elbow (chicken-winged left arm), bent left wrist and a straightened right wrist - all biomechanical features of a pre-impact flipper. I think that the likely cause is that he converts to a hitter's action at P5.5 (where he activates PA#1 while allowing his right wrist to straighten) and he is not using a TGM swinging action between P5.5 and impact.

I think that he needs to first learn how to perform a pivot-induced TGM swinging action using only his lead arm - as demonstrated by Sasho MacKenzie in the following you-tube video.
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Dr Mann's reply uses terminology based on Homer Kelley's TGM (although he disagrees with many of its concepts) , so it can be quite difficult to decipher , although I attempted to do it in the previous posts.

Yes , Daniel's pivot can be improved if he wanted to evolve his 'TGM swinging' action past P5.5 but that in itself will not cure his right arm hitting action (if indeed he wanted to make such a drastic change). He would also need to learn how to use other biomechanical moves to improve his hand speed/path and also how to use his lead forearm to help square the clubface.
 
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I sent my original analysis to Dr Mann (see below) but he disagreed and replied back with his own opinion (he is far more experienced about golf biomechanics). I told Daniel to ignore my flawed opinion.

Why do you assume Dr. Mann is authoritative? There’s more to the game than the biomechanics.

The OPs slide forward on the downswing effectively moves the ball 3-4 inches back from where he began his swing. Here are the images from the analysis:

3b61a924326fec34dd3792e374b3cc0a.jpg


My own reading of the analysis is much shorter:

Pic 1: Not ideal but a good start
Pic 2: Looks good, totally ignores the slide
Pic 3: Still in good shape, even though the OP midsection is now well forward of its position where it began the swing.
Pic 4: Wheels come off for some reason and the OP goes from solid lag positions to throwing the clubhead at the ball with the right hand (flipping).

IMHO, The flip is a symptom and the slide needs to be addressed. In the above pics if the OP keeps the slide and continues with the positions Dr. Mann is advocating he would likely strike the ball well above its equator. The flip in pic 4 is the subconscious taking over the swing and getting the clubhead to the back of the ball (which is the task at hand).

Go back and watch the Lee Westwood vid you linked to. See if his head position moves forward in any significant amount prior to contact with the ball.
 
I agree with your opinion that if Daniel (after image 3) continues with the positions Dr. Mann is advocating (ie. Sasho Mackenzie's swing) he would most probably top the ball or miss it altogether. That is, if he tried to use his pivot to pull on his left arm while extending his left leg (with all other body positions remaining the same).

If he improved his pivot , limited his early pelvic sway and weight pressuring of his left leg/hip , Dr Mann would most likely say that Daniel would also have to incorporate other optimal biomechanics.

For example , as he adducts his right upper arm and pitches his right elbow over his hip , he may also have to :

1. Move his right shoulder further downplane so his shoulder socket gets closer to the ball
2. Have increased lateral flexion
3. Learn how to supinate his left forearm to help square the clubface by impact (currently , he's ingrained the use of his right arm/forearm to do this squaring)
4. Learn to use a passive right arm straightening action that is in synch with the swinging of his left arm.
5. Decide which hand release action he preferred
6. Decide which arm release action he preferred
7. Decide if he preferred to be a front foot or reverse foot golfer.

Points 1 and 2 above are required to retain lag and to create a 'straightish' hand path in downswing from P4-P5.5, but also to ensure that one doesn't 'run out of right arm' before impact (which can also cause the right wrist to straighten and flip the club).
Points 3 and 4 all relate to the optimal release of PA3 (club squaring action) and are usually passive actions for a 'swinger' .
Point 5 is related to these types of hand release actions (too complex to discuss here but if you are interested , please google, perfectgolfswingreview.net and look for chapter " hand release actions through the impact zone"

Point 6 is related to 2 types of arm release action (also mentioned in above chapter but summarised below)
" If one releases the arms inside-left after impact, then it is often arbitrarily referred to as a centripetal arm release action (CP-arm release action) and if one releases the arms away from the rotating torso after impact (in a targetwards or right-of-targetwards direction), then it is often arbitrarily referred to as a center-fleeing/centrifugal arm release action (CF-arm release action)."

Note: A golfer who wishes to use a CP-arm release action would need to be very flexible in the torso/pelvic region.

Point 7 is reviewed in the below chapter (when you google perfectgolfswingreview.net) but is also related to research by Kevin Ball (link pdf also below)
"Critical Update: How To Optimally Rotate the Pelvis during the Downswing"
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10827054.pdf

PS. How were you able to copy and paste Daniels swing images from Dr Mann's forum ? I couldn't do it for some reason and I couldn't paste url links from his 'perfectgolfswingreview.net website' . Is it because they are insecure websites?
 
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I agree with your opinion that if Daniel (after image 3) continues with the positions Dr. Mann is advocating (ie. Sasho Mackenzie's swing) he would most probably top the ball or miss it altogether. That is, if he tried to use his pivot to pull on his left arm while extending his left leg (with all other body positions remaining the same).

If he improved his pivot , limited his early pelvic sway and weight pressuring of his left leg/hip , Dr Mann would most likely say that Daniel would also have to incorporate other optimal biomechanics.

For example , as he adducts his right upper arm and pitches his right elbow over his hip , he may also have to :

1. Move his right shoulder further downplane so his shoulder socket gets closer to the ball
2. Have increased lateral flexion
3. Learn how to supinate his left forearm to help square the clubface by impact (currently , he's ingrained the use of his right arm/forearm to do this squaring)
4. Learn to use a passive right arm straightening action that is in synch with the swinging of his left arm.
5. Decide which hand release action he preferred
6. Decide which arm release action he preferred
7. Decide if he preferred to be a front foot or reverse foot golfer.

Points 1 and 2 above are required to retain lag and to create a 'straightish' hand path in downswing from P4-P5.5, but also to ensure that one doesn't 'run out of right arm' before impact (which can also cause the right wrist to straighten and flip the club).
Points 3 and 4 all relate to the optimal release of PA3 (club squaring action) and are usually passive actions for a 'swinger' .
Point 5 is related to these types of hand release actions (too complex to discuss here but if you are interested , please google, perfectgolfswingreview.net and look for chapter " hand release actions through the impact zone"

Point 6 is related to 2 types of arm release action (also mentioned in above chapter but summarised below)
" If one releases the arms inside-left after impact, then it is often arbitrarily referred to as a centripetal arm release action (CP-arm release action) and if one releases the arms away from the rotating torso after impact (in a targetwards or right-of-targetwards direction), then it is often arbitrarily referred to as a center-fleeing/centrifugal arm release action (CF-arm release action)."

Note: A golfer who wishes to use a CP-arm release action would need to be very flexible in the torso/pelvic region.

Point 7 is reviewed in the below chapter (when you google perfectgolfswingreview.net) but is also related to research by Kevin Ball (link pdf also below)
"Critical Update: How To Optimally Rotate the Pelvis during the Downswing"
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10827054.pdf

PS. How were you able to copy and paste Daniels swing images from Dr Mann's forum ? I couldn't do it for some reason and I couldn't paste url links from his 'perfectgolfswingreview.net website' . Is it because they are insecure websites?

I was able to screen grab it and use tapatalk. If there's a copyright issue here I can delete.
 
Pic 4: Wheels come off for some reason and the OP goes from solid lag positions to throwing the clubhead at the ball with the right hand (flipping).

That "some reason" is because if he continues on the path he's currently on the ball is going to go right - way right. The flip is a subconscious move to try and save the ball flight that when timed incorrectly leads to some nasty hooks. Regardless, it leads to high spin loft, high launch angles and peak heights, and a lack of distance - even when the timing is right and the ball flight is relatively straight.

There are several things that could help. It's a lot easier to work on trying to hold lag than it is to get into the nuances of pelvic rotation (which, IMO, should be reactive and not a conscious effort).
 
So basically (super basic) he needs to turn his hips towards target earlier to prevent/reduce the slide
 
There isn't any copyright issues as far as I am aware , just wondered why I couldn't do it myself.
 
So basically (super basic) he needs to turn his hips towards target earlier to prevent/reduce the slide

Just before he reaches top of backswing or during transition into downswing , he needs to keep his right buttock on the tush line while he pulls his left hip towards the tush line. That will cause a shift/rotate type of pelvic turn without too much lateral slide over to his left side. But he'll still have to stop his right arm from using a 'hitting ' action.
 
Thanks all... so I tried to work on this today on the course and felt the flip leaving. I started on the range with an alignment stick stuck in the ground, 2 inches from my upper thigh at an angle and found a way to start hitting shots without my hip sliding into the stick.

I went out and shot 80 , today felt great... a real "reset" moment for me and I am grateful to all the words here.
 
Thanks all... so I tried to work on this today on the course and felt the flip leaving. I started on the range with an alignment stick stuck in the ground, 2 inches from my upper thigh at an angle and found a way to start hitting shots without my hip sliding into the stick.

I went out and shot 80 , today felt great... a real "reset" moment for me and I am grateful to all the words here.

That's pretty solid when incorporating changes like that.
 
Thanks all... so I tried to work on this today on the course and felt the flip leaving. I started on the range with an alignment stick stuck in the ground, 2 inches from my upper thigh at an angle and found a way to start hitting shots without my hip sliding into the stick.

I went out and shot 80 , today felt great... a real "reset" moment for me and I am grateful to all the words here.

Would be interesting to see a video of your swing (from an academic perspective) to see whether the flip was indeed 'cured/made less' by your new pivot action.
 
Would be interesting to see a video of your swing (from an academic perspective) to see whether the flip was indeed 'cured/made less' by your new pivot action.

I am a teacher and now that my academic year has wrapped up I'll have more time to start recording some actual practice sessions using a tripod and my proper camera (Sony A7SII) which allows for 4K at 120 FPS.

I'll certainly be here with updates.
 
That's pretty solid when incorporating changes like that.

The slide came back a round later but it wasn't as bad... also, it was a charity scramble and I was probably doing things I otherwise wouldn't during a normal round.
 
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