Dreaded Flip of the Hands

dduarte85

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When it works, it works... despite this glaring issue I consistently fire off rounds between 77 and 81. I am hesitant to see a coach and burn the house down to the ashes! I don't really feel the flip but as soon as you record your swing it hits you in the teeth. In this video you see a fat shot, a shank, and a few that hit the green but were a touch thin. 7 iron from 155. Probably not the best time to record, this was hole 27 of the day.

Drills to eliminate it? Roll with it? It’s hard to decide
 
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4114714fce08381774b8823914c7dddb.jpg


Helping @Tadashi70 out with the scene of the crime, so to speak.

Just as a courtesy, please let Freddie give some feedback before other feedback floats in!
 
Thanks for posting your video. Overall you have good action but it does have a few issues that you could clean up.

1. An early release which is contributing to your flip

2. A lack of extension thru the impact zone. This is a by product of the casting but more because your drawing up your arms to compensate for the change in swing plane.

The fix is an old drill. It’s called holding the angle. This link has some solid advice that I stand behind. Tommy Fleetwood holds that angle better than most.
 
Your swing reminds me a lot of Patrick Reed. Same way with him, when he is on he is deadly but when timing is off a it he struggles some..
 
Thanks for posting your video. Overall you have good action but it does have a few issues that you could clean up.

1. An early release which is contributing to your flip

2. A lack of extension thru the impact zone. This is a by product of the casting but more because your drawing up your arms to compensate for the change in swing plane.

The fix is an old drill. It’s called holding the angle. This link has some solid advice that I stand behind. Tommy Fleetwood holds that angle better than most.
Thank you! I appreciate any advice.
Do you happen to have the link?
 
Dear Tadashi

I have a different point of view about the root cause of Daniels flip .

The reason Daniel is flipping is :

1. On the backswing he is not weight pressuring his right hip and putting too much pressure over his left hip. Look at his right leg straightening , almost like stack n tilt backswing action which is not conducive to a weight pressuring action over the right hip.
2. On the downswing he is putting even more weight pressure over his left hip . Look at where his left hip is at P5 ( left arm parallel on the downswing) , it has bypassed his left knee and foot . This means he has effectively stalled further rotation of his left hip on the downswing (try this yourself and you will feel the restriction).

Because of the above Daniel has no choice but to extend and push off his right leg even more to try and rotate his right hip joint/pelvis. This is causing right hip spinning , which will block the downswing path of his right elbow to the side of his torso.

If the elbow/right arm is being blocked in the downswing , the right wrist will straighten and cause a flipping hand release action though impact. Further , the stalling of the left hip also stalls the upper body pivot causing a left arm chicken winging (which you can also see at impact).

Imho , all Daniel needs to do is weight pressure the right hip more in the backswing (while limiting any pelvic sway), and practice keeping his butt on the tush line until at least left arm parallel in the downswing.

Here is a video by Shawn Clement showing the Hogan Power Move which reflect what I've said above.

 
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Dear Tadashi

I have a different point of view about the root cause of Daniels flip .

The reason Daniel is flipping is :

1. On the backswing he is not weight pressuring his right hip and putting too much pressure over his left hip. Look at his right leg straightening , almost like stack n tilt backswing action which is not conducive to a weight pressuring action over the right hip.
2. On the downswing he is putting even more weight pressure over his left hip . Look at where his left hip is at P5 ( left arm parallel on the downswing) , it has bypassed his left knee and foot . This means he has effectively stalled further rotation of his left hip on the downswing (try this yourself and you will feel the restriction).

Because of the above Daniel has no choice but to extend and push off his right leg even more to try and rotate his right hip joint/pelvis. This is causing right hip spinning , which will block the downswing path of his right elbow to the side of his torso.

If the elbow/right arm is being blocked in the downswing , the right wrist will straighten and cause a flipping hand release action though impact. Further , the stalling of the left hip also stalls the upper body pivot causing a left arm chicken winging (which you can also see at impact).

Imho , all Daniel needs to do is weight pressure the right hip more in the backswing (while limiting any pelvic sway), and practice keeping his butt on the tush line until at least left arm parallel in the downswing.

Here is a video by Shawn Clement showing the Hogan Power Move which reflect what I've said above.



Excellent observation... I have been trying some version of the Stack and Tilt for years now. Maybe we can chat via DM, a lot of that was lost on me!
 
I see you feet moving a bit at 25 sec. # adidas tour 360
 
My explanation is based on spending many hundreds of hours reading this website below by Dr Jeff Mann (he is more deeply acquainted with golf biomechanics/anatomy, while I am a novice). Note that my opinion might be wrong while Tadashi correct and others might have their own different opinions. Unfortunately there are many controversial and heated debates going on in the golf industry about cause and effect leaving golfing academics confused.

https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pelvicrotation.html

The above link is just one chapter of many thousands of webpages that explains in detail anatomically how the pelvis is rotated in the golf swing (and also explains why SnT have to deploy the 'butt tuck' move) .

Here is a critical review of SnT if you are interested.

https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm


Imho, unless you have the time to spend literally hundreds of hours reading through the above links in detail (plus have some knowledge of TGM terminology) , it will not help you. That's why I included the Shawn Clement video above as a simple example of how you might wish to rotate your pelvis which will stop 'right hip spinning'. Basically you are weight loading your left leg too much and too early (ie. at the top of your backswing and early downswing) and that is the root cause of your right hip spinning . Cure the way you pivot and rotate your pelvis and that could fix some other non-optimal issues you seem to have such as right wrist straightening, left arm chicken winging.

Here's another follow up video by Shawn Clement that might provide more clarity.



And of course, all of this is related to Ben Hogan's 5 Lessons book and his famous diagram (with elastic band attached to his left hip) describing the pivot.


PS.
If Daniel is still keen on using a subtype SnT technique like Sean Foley , then he might be interested in reading this review.

https://perfectgolfswingreview.net/foley.htm

It is an acceptable technique and maybe back friendlier than Bennett & Plumber.All he'll need to do is tweak his pivot and limit too much pelvic thrust towards target and rotate his left hip more so that it does not sway outside the boundary of his left knee/foot.


Hogan-ElasticBandTwo.jpg
 
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Following this thread. Flipping is what I do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
One thing I noticed is a slide forward during the transition. Watching the video with my mouse pointer just at the lead ear the forward slide pushes the OP's head forward so the pointer is over his right eye (roughly). This essentially moves ball position back from where the swing began. IMHO, the flip is a reaction to try to save the shot. If the OP holds his release he is likely to thin or top the shot and the flip is the brain trying to get the clubhead where it needs to be based on the new body position. If one does the mouse cursor thing with Hogan or any of the other great ball strikers they'll notice the head pretty much stays put through contact.

Signed,
someone who has been fighting similar issues ever since he started playing
 
Just another drill similar to what Tadashi referenced:



All of the video has good information, but it's really the middle section that discusses right hand palm direction that falls in line with holding the angle. It's just another way to say/think about the same thing.
 
That AMG video was actually reviewed by Dr Jeff Mann

AMG-RightPalmFacing.jpg
https://newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/684/athletic-motion-golf-confusing-videos

He claims that PGA pros don't do what AMG advocate and that a pronation of the right forearm/wrist will steepen the clubshaft ( tumble over action) and cause an 'Out to In' clubhead path towards impact .

In that link he shows an image of Shaun Webb demonstrating right palm down and compared similar snapshot images of Garcia, Adam Scott, Justin Rose, Rory McIlroy. It seems that pros are using a pitch elbow action (right elbow leading the hand) not a punch elbow action (right hand leading the elbow as advocated by AMG).

Here is another golf instructor who proposes the opposite of AMG .

 
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That AMG video was actually reviewed by Dr Jeff Mann...

I would caution following this Jeff Mann. Especially given how negative he is about other instructors. He seems to have a bad reputation from what little I found on him following your post.

That being said, AMG uses Gears Golf and it’s database of precisely measured positions of the swings of numerous tour pros. So I’m fairly certain they know exactly what the pros are doing.

The discrepancy here is that the wrist positions are a feel or drill. If you want it to show up at the right time you have to feel the move a little earlier. The average time of a golf swing is fast regardless of club head speed. The golfer shouldn’t be thinking about this drill when playing golf. It’s a feel drill for the range.
 
The Gears 3D system is wonderful for analysing the golf swing. It does have limitations on the frequency of data measurements and uses 'smoothing' algorithms in between measurements (which can cause 'visual vs actual' body position discrepancies for very fast movements). They actually calibrate Gears using 2D images of the golf swing (from various angles) using 'High Speed' Cameras (ie. Phantom). Dr Mann has been accused of using 2D images (and on many occasions Phantom Camera images) when disputing opinions of other instructors (and golf scientists) who deploy 3D technology , but you can see the obvious contradiction (ie. 2D camera images being used to check accuracy of 3D systems).

With regards instructors like Shaun Webb and Mike Granato , the main issue is that they lack biomechanical knowledge to advise golfers 'How' to do 'What' they see on 3D Gears. You mentioned above that the wrist positions are a feel drill , but imho Mike/Shaun didn't stress that enough in their video. Maybe they should have shown their reasoning using an example of a PGA pros swing on Gears highlighting where the golfer should be 'feeling' what they advocate. But note that the idea of using feel (especially during fast movements) is not the same for every golfer because it takes time for a 'subconscious' act to register a 'feel' , and the pathways to the brain could be different for each individual. This means golfers doing the same muscular action at a particular moment , could 'feel' that act during a different stage of their swing cycle.

Here is an example of AMG's lack of biomechanical knowledge in this video below which (imho) actually ties in quite well with my 'opinion' about the root cause of Daniels issues. He's restricted the rotation of his left hip by applying too much weight pressure (and slide where hip/knee bypassed left foot) while also 'kicking in with his right knee/pushing off with his right leg / or both' which causes right hip spinning action. This blocks the pitch elbow action that he needs to retain 'lag' (ie. angle between left forearm and clubshaft) so he then has to use a right 'punch elbow' action that causes a non-optimal early release.

AMG show 'WHAT' a golfer should be aspiring to do by copying the 'pivot' motion of a 'Pro' but they never explain 'HOW' to do it.

[video=youtube;M-8bk1zvTX8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=116&v=M-8bk1zvTX8[/video]

Here is Dr Mann's comments :

"Note that they are comparing the rotary pelvic motion happening during the backswing and downswing of an amateur golfer versus a pro golfer. They advise golfers to mimic the pelvic motion of the pro golfer, but they do not explain how a student golfer can achieve that goal.

When I watch the video, it is obvious that the amateur golfer is using a "right hip spinning" pattern of pelvic motion during his early downswing action, while the pro golfer is using the "pro golfers" pattern of pelvic motion during his early downswing. In other words, the difference is due to the fact that they are using different pelvic girdle muscles (glutes in the amateur golfer versus the right-sided lateral pelvic rotator muscles in the pro golfer). To teach a student golfer to use the "pro golfer" pattern of pelvic motion, the AMG golf instructors would need to learn a lot more about the muscular biomechanics that underlie these different pelvic motion patterns."

I've asked Dr Mann hundreds of questions over a 2 year period but he does get frustrated when opinions (sometimes based on poor golf science research methods and poor evidence) are used for marketing golf instruction to the public.

Daniel: If you want to risk asking Dr Mann for an alternative opinion of your swing , just ask him (all his advice, you-tube videos, material on his 'website/forum' have always been free for public use).
 
Daniel

I asked Dr Mann to review your swing and it looks like my analysis is flawed (his comments and snapshot images of your swing is in the link below).

https://newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/thread/694/dreaded-flip-hands?page=1&scrollTo=9231

I cannot copy and paste the images onto this site for some unknown reason but here is Dr Manns written analysis :

------------------------------------------------------
Although his pelvic motion during his early-mid downswing is sub-optimal, I don't think that his imperfect pivot action is causing his pre-impact flipping problem.

I think that his major problem is that he not using a TGM swinging action, and he is probably using a swing-hitter's technique

image 1 is at P4. He has loaded his right-sided lateral pelvic rotator muscles well by driving his right hip joint into internal rotation while maintaining right knee flex. He has a rightwards-centralised upper torso loading pattern. He looks reasonably good at P4.

Image 2 is at P5. I agree that he has too much left-lateral pelvic shift, but his power package is well retained and his right elbow is visible below his left arm, which means that he is adducting his right arm well enough while maintaining a bent right elbow.

Image 3 is at P5.5. Note that he has retained lag well enough using a pitch elbow motion of his right arm.

Image 4 is at impact - where he manifests a bent left elbow (chicken-winged left arm), bent left wrist and a straightened right wrist - all biomechanical features of a pre-impact flipper. I think that the likely cause is that he converts to a hitter's action at P5.5 (where he activates PA#1 while allowing his right wrist to straighten) and he is not using a TGM swinging action between P5.5 and impact.

I think that he needs to first learn how to perform a pivot-induced TGM swinging action using only his lead arm - as demonstrated by Sasho MacKenzie in the following you-tube video.




-----------------------------------

I'll try and translate the above as much as I can but you need to understand the P positions in the golf swing

https://www.thediygolfer.com/the-positions-of-the-golf-swing-p-classification-system/



Backswing
Basically you are rotating your pelvis into your right leg and achieving the 'reverse K' shape at the top of your backswing P4 (you have weight pressured your right hip okay).

Early Downswing - from top of backswing P4 to P5 (left arm parallel to ground)
You have shifted your pelvis laterally too far over to your left foot (as I mentioned before). But you have maintained lag well and not releasing early (ie. maintaining that angle between your right forearm and clubshaft).

Mid Downswing: P5- P5.5 (ie. midway between P5 and P6)
You have still retained your lag , you are not releasing early and you are using an optimal pitch elbow action (this means your right elbow is leading your hands over the right hip).

End of Mid -Late Downswing :p5.5 -P7 (impact)
Your right arm has taken over and is straightening like a piston, a 'hitting action' but probably also ends up applying active right hand wrist torque (similar to a hockey slap shot). It is this overactive piston action of your right arm which is causing the flipping and your left arm chicken wing.

To fix , you will need to learn how to 'Swing' the golf club using your pivot to 'assist' the propelling of your left arm (see Dr Sasho MacKenzie's video). This is similar to throwing a frisbee left backhanded or throwing a club left backhanded . Note that it isn't just the pivot that helps move your left arm (in an outwards direction to the target line) but also your left shoulder girdle muscles (ie. the downward motion).

Hope the above makes sense but now you can see how opinions about 'cause' and 'effect' can vary and how specific advice (if flawed) can send the golfer in the wrong direction. I would discount anything I have said in previous posts about your golf swing because Dr Mann is far more experienced in golf biomechanics.
 
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Hope the above makes sense but now you can see how opinions about 'cause' and 'effect' can vary and how specific advice (if flawed) can send the golfer in the wrong direction. I would discount anything I have said in previous posts about your golf swing because Dr Mann is far more experienced in golf biomechanics.

So, what's the cause, and what's the effect?
 
I’m kind of proud that I can shoot 78-81 with such a messed up swing after seeing the whole TGM golf swing thingy
 
So, what's the cause, and what's the effect?

The Cause
Looks like the root cause is Daniel trying to hit with his right arm to release the club . He is what is termed a 'swing hitter' because he starts his downswing like a swinger using his pivot (via his left shoulder socket) and left arm shoulder girdle muscles to bring his left arm down (right arm working in synergy) , but then he stalls his pivot at P5.5 and then allows his right arm to takeover the movement of his left arm (which is passive for the rest of the downswing).

The Effect
Right 'arm/wrist' straightens prematurely, left 'arm/wrist' bends - resulting in a clubface flipping through impact. His clubhead is probably reaching maximum speed too early in the downswing and is decelerating into impact.

Swing Hitting is a viable golf action and can have advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages - Dominant right arm can better control the release (ie. release of the lag angle between left forearm and clubshaft) and square the clubface by impact.
Disadvantages - one needs to synchronise two forces that control the left arm motion - a pivot-induced movement of left arm and then a right arm-induced movement of left arm - and this creates a timing problem. Another disadvantage to this swing-hitting approach is that his right arm "applying the force across the shaft" approach is an "all-out" technique where one continues to apply a constant right arm push-force throughout the remainder of the mid-late downswing (via an active right arm straightening action) - and it is easily possible for an unskilled golfer to:
i) over-accelerate the left hand into impact (if excessive force is applied by the right hand in a left-lateral direction)
or
ii) flip the club prior to impact (if excessive force is applied by his right index trigger finger)
 
There’s an important question that this response doesn’t address: Why does Daniel need to stall at P5.5 and become a “swing-hitter”?
 
I’m kind of proud that I can shoot 78-81 with such a messed up swing after seeing the whole TGM golf swing thingy

When you mentioned your scores in the first post , I must admit I was surprised, but if it works for you then why mess with it? My best score is 81 but I only play about 10 times a year . Note that only 26% of all golfers in the world break 90 so we aren't doing too badly :)
 
When you mentioned your scores in the first post , I must admit I was surprised, but if it works for you then why mess with it? My best score is 81 but I only play about 10 times a year . Note that only 26% of all golfers in the world break 90 so we aren't doing too badly :)

I think I’ve just been doing this for so long that the timing is there for it to be somewhat consistent. Iron play isn’t even my weakest point, I piss strokes away with chipping.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
There’s an important question that this response doesn’t address: Why does Daniel need to stall at P5.5 and become a “swing-hitter”?

He doesn't need to stall to be a swing hitter but his swing-hitting technique is sub-optimal . If he wanted to continue being a good swing-hitter, he'd need to improve his pivot so that his 'swing' and 'hit' are better timed to prevent a flip and chicken wing.

Lee Westwood looks like a swing-hitter but he doesn't stall his pivot . His pivot works in synch with his right arm but his right arm is more dominant in moving the left arm than his pivot (look at his bent left arm at 2:57).

 
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