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Thread: Slow Play Ranting: Golf Unfiltered

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    Quote Originally Posted by DG_1234 View Post
    Nonsense.

    Contrary to popular opinion, it's not so much duffing shots that makes for slow play, among high handicap amateurs (90% of the people playing golf) it's the lack of golf knowledge and etiquette that makes for slow play.
    I’ve seen plenty of low handicap players that lack “golf knowledge and etiquette. I think we’re on the same page you just said what i was trying to say better.

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    I would need to take bits and parts of many of these replies to share my complete view on pace of play. In short, I don't get paid to play so I'm just trying to have fun and enjoy this game I love. Make no mistake, I'm a bad golfer. Pretty much live in the 90s. We suck, but we know the etiquette of golf and we don't play slow. My wife and I routinely play a round together in about 3-4 hours, we've even turned in sub 3 hour rounds when the course is wide open. Now if us being high handicappers are the cause of slow play and that's how people feel, then the sport is dead to me. Our home track is a resort course. So there are all walks of life and skills that can be found on any given day. Problem is, it's a tough course. It's position golf, you can't beat it into submission. Lots of blind turns, tight fairways, and blind shots where you have to be real careful or someone can get hurt. On top of that, there's not a level putting surface anywhere. All of this put together can make for some 5+ hour rounds, rarely 6+. BUT, I'm playing golf which is better than many other things in life.

    Now for my longest round, it was 8 hours on a muni and I walked off at about the 15th-16th hole. In that case, it's a VERY poorly managed course. I've yet to finish a round there in under 6 hours.

    On to the point about specific tee times for specific skill levels? I think that's the quickest way to cement the "elitist" view that the masses tend to feel about golf. You're telling me that if I suck at golf I'm not allowed to play at a certain time that works for me and the ones I want to enjoy a round with? Yea that doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I'm a bit off base with that opinion, don't know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NullNomad View Post
    I would need to take bits and parts of many of these replies to share my complete view on pace of play. In short, I don't get paid to play so I'm just trying to have fun and enjoy this game I love. Make no mistake, I'm a bad golfer. Pretty much live in the 90s. We suck, but we know the etiquette of golf and we don't play slow. My wife and I routinely play a round together in about 3-4 hours, we've even turned in sub 3 hour rounds when the course is wide open. Now if us being high handicappers are the cause of slow play and that's how people feel, then the sport is dead to me. Our home track is a resort course. So there are all walks of life and skills that can be found on any given day. Problem is, it's a tough course. It's position golf, you can't beat it into submission. Lots of blind turns, tight fairways, and blind shots where you have to be real careful or someone can get hurt. On top of that, there's not a level putting surface anywhere. All of this put together can make for some 5+ hour rounds, rarely 6+. BUT, I'm playing golf which is better than many other things in life.

    Now for my longest round, it was [B]8 hours on a muni and I walked off at about the 15th-16th hole. In that case, it's a VERY poorly managed course. I've yet to finish a round there in under 6 hours.

    On to the point about specific tee times for specific skill levels? I think that's the quickest way to cement the "elitist" view that the masses tend to feel about golf. You're telling me that if I suck at golf I'm not allowed to play at a certain time that works for me and the ones I want to enjoy a round with? Yea that doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I'm a bit off base with that opinion, don't know.
    My question to you is ... WHY would you ever go back to a course that is consistently that slow?? OMG ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by radiman View Post
    It is a tough subject to tackle directly as there tends to be so many contributing factors as already mentioned here. Tee time intervals seem to be the start of it here. Then, mismanaging groups (allowing singles and twosomes out during a packed tee sheet). Then, the individual etiquette of the players on the course. The more traffic a course sees, the more prevalent these individual issues will be. It seems, in some rare cases, a public course will proactively address the pace of play with marshalls and starters. I have yet to see that locally here.

    I don't know what the perfect answer would be. A course could start by spreading out their tee times. But, that would directly impact their bottom line. There needs to be a bit of a culture shift I think. Since it can be very situational, there is no perfect answer.
    You whats poor form? When a course does squeeze the tee times too close and doesnt do much about better managing the groupings nor tend to pace issues but they themselves preach to everyone to keep up. Very hypocritical imo. When in fact they are part of the problem. You cannot have 7 or 8 min tee times and then expect a good pace. It just cant work as your creating a waiting scenario on the very first tee before you even begin. But then they will claim something stupid like trying to imply to people what tees to play as though that is the big reason for unreasonably slow rounds.

    You cant crowd people in and expect to move well. Its counter productive towards pace even if all concerned are not the slowest people. It still wont work.

    Poor play can certainly add a problem if the player lacks the concern and or knowledge to play with a sense of it all. But many good experienced good players are guilty as well of the very same thing except from that group it often comes even though they know better. But it cant be them because they are good players. I cant tell you the extra time a good player can often spend looking for a ball vs a lessor player. And certainly the huge amounts of time they take up around and on greens can be outright painstaking vs the lessor ability players. It really is all over the map when it comes to this stuff. But as said it also has to start with the golf course managing. Tee time intervals being the first mistake many of them make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NullNomad View Post
    On to the point about specific tee times for specific skill levels? I think that's the quickest way to cement the "elitist" view that the masses tend to feel about golf. You're telling me that if I suck at golf I'm not allowed to play at a certain time that works for me and the ones I want to enjoy a round with? Yea that doesn't sit well with me. Maybe I'm a bit off base with that opinion, don't know.
    I unequivocally concur with this. There is a middle ground somewhere between the extremes on pace of play. I'm not sure what it is but I don't think such separation and exclusion is it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by golfinnut View Post
    My question to you is ... WHY would you ever go back to a course that is consistently that slow?? OMG ...
    well (not 8 or even 7) but 5 to 6 was always a norm where I grew up and played. So either you play or you don't. So we played. pretty simply really as to why. Its all we knew.
    I golf because I can But I stink because I can't

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    Quote Originally Posted by golfinnut View Post
    My question to you is ... WHY would you ever go back to a course that is consistently that slow?? OMG ...
    Lots of back-story on this, but in short charity events and real good friends that I get only one round a year with because of where we all live.
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    While I'm all for faster play, some of the ideas outlined here don't really help the game of golf as a whole. The majority of rounds bought in N America have got to be from 18+ handicaps, and these are the guys that probably spend the most in the clubhouse & at the beverage cart as well (All assumptions - I have no data). I don't personally believe that skill level and pace are directly related at all.
    IMO, slow play is caused mainly by:
    1) Ignorance. Many players don't even realize that groups behind them actually want to keep moving between shots.
    2) Selfishness. Many players don't give a f*** that groups behind them want to keep moving.
    3) Course Management. So many courses cram tee times so tight and have no pace enforcement - they are already 20 minutes behind on the 1st tee at 8AM. This is 100% on the course. Don't give these clown shows your money.

    At the end of the day I think that the discerning player who just wants to play a round in 3:45 or less needs to be selective about where they play, and may need to just pay more. Local private clubs and well run semi-private clubs seem to avoid most of these issues. Members keep each other accountable, and Marshalls do their jobs because they answer to the membership at the end of the day.
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    If you are out in a crowded area or playing sub $30 public courses on the weekend you really can't gripe about slow play, it is what it is as they say. I also think people sometimes conflate waiting with slow play. Just because you are waiting doesn't mean someone in front is playing slow. My friend and I (twosome) played yesterday. I am 20 handicap and he is a 16. We had a foursome in front of us and waited every single hole. We started at 2:39 and I was in my car driving away from the course at 6:35. Basically a 3 hour and 50 minute round. That's not slow, but we did have to wait.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollin View Post
    well (not 8 or even 7) but 5 to 6 was always a norm where I grew up and played. So either you play or you don't. So we played. pretty simply really as to why. Its all we knew.
    Every course in your area was 5 - 6 hours every day? I find that very hard to believe. If every round took 5 - 6 hours, there wouldn't be anyone playing. No one wants to look forward to a 6 hour round every time they tee it up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DG_1234 View Post
    Nonsense.
    Sure there is some slow play on Tour. Yes, some scratch level players are slow, no doubt about it.
    But at the amateur level the numbers of players shooting par or near par, even just routinely breaking 80, is a very small percentage of the people on a golf course, maybe 5% at the most.
    Mostly courses are filled with high handicap players shooting 90 or worse. And with that high handicap usually comes a lack of knowledge about how to go directly to the ball (instead of standing or sitting around watching others), a lack of knowledge about club selection (choosing one that will reach the target instead of a club that falls 30 yards short of the target), lack of knowledge about how to let others play thru (when their are holes open ahead), lack of knowledge about where to leave bags, carts, or cars (so that one can move efficiently from shot to shot, green to tee box etc...).
    Contrary to popular opinion, it's not so much duffing shots that makes for slow play, among high handicap amateurs (90% of the people playing golf) it's the lack of golf knowledge and etiquette that makes for slow play.
    I'll use your own word here ....... NONSENSE!
    So 90% (your number) of golfers are what you call high handicap amateurs, and you even state that it isn't the number of shots, but "the lack of golf knowledge and etiquette that makes for slow play". So how does the handicap equate to the lack of knowledge? A large percentage of "high handicappers" have been playing the game long enough to have the knowledge and awareness to play at a good pace. I'm with LLIB on this one, but will put it another way, players of all abilities are equally capable of being inconsiderate asses! I would be willing to bet that the percentages are pretty equal. Lets say that the real problem lies with 10% of golfers being the cause of seriously slow play, so 1 of every 10. You are going to find many more high handicap players playing slow because there are so many more of them (us), but you will likely find the same percentage of low handicappers, because it's not as much about ability as it is about a lack of consideration for others, and awareness of whats going on around them.

    Like others, I also lay some blame on the poor management at golf courses though. Tee time intervals can be a part of the problem, but so can the lack of promoting/enforcing a reasonable pace of play. I played a 5+ hour round a couple of weeks ago, a Marshall came by several times, but he did absolutely nothing. There was a group of SIX a couple of groups ahead of us, with open holes ahead of them, and HE DID NOTHING ABOUT IT!
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    As far as the course management angle, I think you need to take into account that a number of these courses are municipally owned and operated. They are a source of revenue for the municipality. So, there is incentive for them to cram in as many tee times as they can. That is especially true in areas where the season is limited.

    The local municipal where I live in upstate New York is known for 5-6 hour rounds on weekends. I choose not to play unless I get a tee time before 8:30. Yet every weekend morning during the season, the parking lot is full and the course is crowded. The length of the round doesn't seem to keep people away.

    It reminds me of the statement attributed to Yogi Berra: "Nobody goes there anymore, its too crowded".

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    I wonder why there hasn't been a feature added to all these GPS driven carts that you can send a message to the carts in front and behind you. Something like "Sorry can't move any faster, stacked up in front of us" or "Mind if we play through (Select yes/no)"
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollin View Post
    You whats poor form? When a course does squeeze the tee times too close and doesnt do much about better managing the groupings nor tend to pace issues but they themselves preach to everyone to keep up. Very hypocritical imo. When in fact they are part of the problem. You cannot have 7 or 8 min tee times and then expect a good pace. It just cant work as your creating a waiting scenario on the very first tee before you even begin. But then they will claim something stupid like trying to imply to people what tees to play as though that is the big reason for unreasonably slow rounds.

    You cant crowd people in and expect to move well. Its counter productive towards pace even if all concerned are not the slowest people. It still wont work.

    Poor play can certainly add a problem if the player lacks the concern and or knowledge to play with a sense of it all. But many good experienced good players are guilty as well of the very same thing except from that group it often comes even though they know better. But it cant be them because they are good players. I cant tell you the extra time a good player can often spend looking for a ball vs a lessor player. And certainly the huge amounts of time they take up around and on greens can be outright painstaking vs the lessor ability players. It really is all over the map when it comes to this stuff. But as said it also has to start with the golf course managing. Tee time intervals being the first mistake many of them make.
    Excuse me? I am trying to make sense of what exactly you are attempting to say here. A few things here. What I said, was that short tee gaps are part of the problem. It is also not the only problem. A player playing a set of tees that are hundreds of yards too long for them can most definitely slow them down. If they are taking an extra shot every couple of holes because the holes are longer, their round will take longer. Besides, I didn't even mention that.

    My point. There are many factors. The course, their management style, and the players. All parties need to come together somehow to address the problem. Some players need to play faster. Some courses need to address their own issues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldeDude View Post
    I'll use your own word here ....... NONSENSE!
    So 90% (your number) of golfers are what you call high handicap amateurs, and you even state that it isn't the number of shots, but "the lack of golf knowledge and etiquette that makes for slow play". So how does the handicap equate to the lack of knowledge? A large percentage of "high handicappers" have been playing the game long enough to have the knowledge and awareness to play at a good pace. I'm with LLIB on this one, but will put it another way, players of all abilities are equally capable of being inconsiderate asses! I would be willing to bet that the percentages are pretty equal. Lets say that the real problem lies with 10% of golfers being the cause of seriously slow play, so 1 of every 10. You are going to find many more high handicap players playing slow because there are so many more of them (us), but you will likely find the same percentage of low handicappers, because it's not as much about ability as it is about a lack of consideration for others, and awareness of whats going on around them.

    Like others, I also lay some blame on the poor management at golf courses though. Tee time intervals can be a part of the problem, but so can the lack of promoting/enforcing a reasonable pace of play. I played a 5+ hour round a couple of weeks ago, a Marshall came by several times, but he did absolutely nothing. There was a group of SIX a couple of groups ahead of us, with open holes ahead of them, and HE DID NOTHING ABOUT IT!
    I agree 100% on all of this ^^^^^^^

    I don't see the problem going away anytime soon.

    Tee sheets will always be stacked regardless to max out revenue.
    Some people will be inconsiderate of others, regardless of playing ability & handicap. There just will always be that one group that thinks that since they paid their hard earned money, they will play as slow or as fast as they want & no one is going to tell them what to do.
    Marshalls don't really know what to do from what I've seen. All they do is ride around & occasionally say something like "please try and keep pace with the group ahead of you" or "there is a hole open ahead of you, can you pick up the pace." But there is no real way of enforcing that once it's said. In all the years I have been playing, I have never seen a group eventually kicked off the course for slow play.
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    2018 THP Championship
    2019 ????

    "Competitive golf is played on a 5 1/2 inch course ... the space between your ears."



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