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Pin Placement??

fastbasser

fastbasser

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Ocala, Fl
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First, I realize that we all play the same pin position on a given day. With that being said, I wonder what the consensus is regarding certain pin positions we have had recently at our course.

First, I have been told there is no official rule regarding how close a pin is to the edge of a green. How close is too close in your opinion?

Second, We have several VERY "steep" greens. One is a killer 440 yup hill par 4. A 2 put is considered a gift.. Yesterday, I was 3 ft directly under the hole. I left it on the lip...(yes, bad putt on my part) It then started rolling and stopped 6 ft later.. Had it rolled another couple of feet, it could have gone 15 ft further and off the green. Note, this is the time of the year when our greens are slow!!

I realize course's move pin positions around to even out the wear and tear. Should some positions be consider off limits!

Thanks guys
 
Ha, your story reminds me of one hole at my course that does something very similar. Basically any pin placement is on a slope and you are pretty darn happy with a 2 putt unless you are directly under the hole for your first putt.

Unfortunately, at many courses, the crews setting the pins do not play golf and could really care less what we think. Now, I don't know how much instruction they are given to pin placements (probably depends on the course superintendent, etc).

There are some that I think should be considered "off limits" as I have seen guys 10 feet from a hole and end up 5 putting because the slope simply does not stop and they are ran off the green.
 
Some can be unfair. I feel like you shouldn't be punished for hitting a good putt. At the same time, it is supposed to be difficult. Not sure where I stand. It probably depends on what I shot that day haha.
 
at my old course there are 2 greens that are severely sloped from back to front. Anytime you are a few feet above the hole, you risk looking at a 10 footer coming back. I haven't gotten used to the greens yet at my new course so I'm not sure how many pin locations there are like that one.
 
We have some greens that are sloped pretty massively, like you described. Our 17th is by far the hardest to putt on. You need to be below the hole, as when they are fast, from up above, you can putt it off the green, and the approach is very steep. I've had a putt, then a 50 yard approach shot right after that. And there is a nasty bunker down there. Makes it difficult, but that's part of the game I guess.
 
Our course gets a great deal of its strokes back on the greens. There are some pins placed that are basically cruel, but it does force you to learn to hit the ball to a spot, so I hope it will encourage some better course management on my part.

A couple members told me that there is a tournament once a year where they put the pins in the worst imaginable spots and have a cash prize for lowest score and lowest number of putts. They said the winners are almost always in the high 30's. I figure I'll be lucky to crack 50, but I'm going to give it a shot.
 
The USGA does provide guidelines for hole locations, particularly for tournaments, but there are no set rules. http://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule=16 We have at least one course here in Atlanta that has very slick, hilly greens and is notorious for disregarding these guidelines.

The USGA suggests holes should be at least four paces from the edge of greens, and further if there is a bunker or steep slope nearby. This course often places holes within two feet of the fringe. Also, holes should not be placed right at the edge of a steep slope, but this course does that all the time:

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

I used to work at a golf course in Alabama, and one Sunday a few players were coming in and complaining about the hole location on #16. The complaint was that the hole was too close to a slope, and if you hit the ball hole high but to the right, your putt would either catch the slope and roll several feet away from the hole, or else stay above the hole and leave you with a very tricky downhill putt for your second. One of the pros drove out to the green with the whining club members, and proceeded to sink 3 straight putts from each spot everyone said was "impossible". Surprisingly, this did not stop the complaining.
 
I played a round about a year ago where they were letting the greens recover in prep for the upcoming club championship and every single green with only a few exceptions had pins that were literally 3-5 feet from the fringe. It was rediculous.

As for slopes, I feel strongly that pins should be placed where putts at least have a reasonable chance. I hate pins on slopes that are not designed to take pins or in areas that are actually false fronts/sides/etc.

Also, I hate it when a greenskeeper sticks a pin on the very crown of a mound so that everything breaks away from the hole no matter where you come from.
 
ddec said:
at my old course there are 2 greens that are severely sloped from back to front. Anytime you are a few feet above the hole, you risk looking at a 10 footer coming back. I haven't gotten used to the greens yet at my new course so I'm not sure how many pin locations there are like that one.
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We have 3 that if you re above the hole and miss, you are looking at a 10 foot (or much more) put coming back. There are no "gimme" 2 ft puts on these holes. lol
 
At the club championship last year they put the pins six inches from the fringe on a big slope behind a big mound on EVERY HOLE. I'd need a picture to really describe how tough it was. But most of the time, it's pretty fair. Sloped greens are part of putting.
 
old course had a "bowl" shaped green

The crew likes to throw the cup up on the back right of the bowl, about 2 feet from the fringe

which means, if u go long and over, your toast, short and right you are toast and pin high just off the green is toast cause there isnt anywhere to land the ball.

I saw a 6 handicap 6 putt and a 15 handicap 7 putt at the same time.....I took my 2 putt and ran
 
Hole locations have gotten out of hand lately everywhere I play, there are holes you have to putt to a spot behind and above the hole and hope it rolls back down and hits the cup but if it lips out it will still go 10 feet or more down the hill. I honestly think it is a conspiracy by the old and short hitters who are for the most part very good putters to sabotage the younger longer hitters in club tournaments and the like. I am of course an old long hitter who has trouble putting so I am acutely aware of this sabotage. Also several years ago they stopped tamping down the area right around the hole after it is cut, inevitably the hole cutter causes the ground around the cup to hump up a bit which causes enormous grief for those who like to have putts die at the hole. Instead of going in they take a 90 degree turn right as they get to the hole.
 
There can be some pretty interesting hole locations at my home course. The greens are large and fast (probably rolling at least a 12). They are also very undulated. Almost all the pins are fair, but if you knock it by too far or leave it too far short, you can pay a price for it. We are hosting an AJGA event this weekend and I looked at some of the pin locations for that tournament. I hope those kids spend a lot of time getting used to the greens. If they don't, there is going to be some complaining after the tournament.
 
Rusty said:
The USGA does provide guidelines for hole locations, particularly for tournaments, but there are no set rules. http://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule=16 We have at least one course here in Atlanta that has very slick, hilly greens and is notorious for disregarding these guidelines.

The USGA suggests holes should be at least four paces from the edge of greens, and further if there is a bunker or steep slope nearby. This course often places holes within two feet of the fringe. Also, holes should not be placed right at the edge of a steep slope, but this course does that all the time:

"An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole."

I used to work at a golf course in Alabama, and one Sunday a few players were coming in and complaining about the hole location on #16. The complaint was that the hole was too close to a slope, and if you hit the ball hole high but to the right, your putt would either catch the slope and roll several feet away from the hole, or else stay above the hole and leave you with a very tricky downhill putt for your second. One of the pros drove out to the green with the whining club members, and proceeded to sink 3 straight putts from each spot everyone said was "impossible". Surprisingly, this did not stop the complaining.
Click to expand...


I was going to say, I always thought there was something to follow. I have heard the 4 pace guideline when I worked at a course.

The course superintendent was a 3 handicap and would always set it up depending on who he though would be playing that day. For example, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday were usually pretty general placements, but then on Friday when he knew all the better players were coming to play their regular afternoon rounds, he would set them up harder on a lot of holes.

Must say it was the one course that I always though the pins were fair. Even when they were in their toughest positions, if you played it right, it went in.

Played a par 3 course a few weeks ago with a hole cut on a ridge. If you were putting up the ridge and left it short, expect it to come back to you. It was ridiculous.
 
I believe that if a course has to rely on ridiculous pin placements to increase difficulty, then it isn't that good of a course. There is a course near my office that does this. The holes are generally very open and flat, but the greens are either sloped hard front to back or have a steep crown in the middle, solely to make up for the relative ease of the layout. I avoid playing there at all costs.
 
I cut cups for a season and the closest we set our pins was 1 flagstick length from the apron, 8 or 10 feet I think. There is a pretty tame course locally that is great for a fun round but the guy there cuts the cups like he is hosting the US open. I'd play there more if he was a little more moderate. Pin placement is a skill, and it is best if a guy actually plays his own cups frequently.
 
Really no complaints about pin placement at the three courses in our county. Rarely does anyone stick it on a ridge and its usually due to a request for a particular group's outing...
 
Funny you posted this thread cause I was going to post it after my round. I had 3 holes today less than 2' from the rough today. On a dog track of a public course. I don't get it. Everyone wants to speed up play and they put pin placements like that. It's ridiculous on public courses IMO. I've seen more and more tight pins lately I guess it's a trend.
 
blugold said:
I believe that if a course has to rely on ridiculous pin placements to increase difficulty, then it isn't that good of a course. There is a course near my office that does this. The holes are generally very open and flat, but the greens are either sloped hard front to back or have a steep crown in the middle, solely to make up for the relative ease of the layout. I avoid playing there at all costs.
Click to expand...

Agree. I also hate when they leave tree limbs hanging out over obvious sightlines or plant trees in stupid places that blcok you from playing the hole the way it was meant to be played. I guess they think they are making it harder by forcing you to hit a 4 iron twice when it otherwise is a driver wedge. I would like to take a chainsaw to a couple of courses around here that do that.
 
Buckjob said:
Funny you posted this thread cause I was going to post it after my round. I had 3 holes today less than 2' from the rough today. On a dog track of a public course. I don't get it. Everyone wants to speed up play and they put pin placements like that. It's ridiculous on public courses IMO. I've seen more and more tight pins lately I guess it's a trend.
Click to expand...

That's just ridiculous!!!
 
Our course is an older, traditional layout so the greens were made for the much slower grasses back then so our greens have lots of undulation. As a result, every day there are a few holes with extreme breaks or slopes if you are in the wrong position on that green. It is a pretty good rule of thumb on any course to "stay below the hole."

One of my favorite course I have played anywhere is an old course in Massachusetts, Taconic, which I loved and some of the greens there were very severe. Those greens didn't detract from the course, rather, they added to the experience.

So, sometimes the severe greens are because modern grasses can be mowed much closer than when the course was first designed. I'm a fan of most old courses so I will just enjoy their greens as they are, don't want to mess with history.
 
I don't mind tough placements or greens that force you to be precise. I'm rarely precise and I'm not a great putter, but I do think it's something that adds another element to the experience. It makes it that much more rewarding when I actually do make that one putt or even a two putt on certain holes at my course.

I understand there is a difference between unfair and challenging though.
 
Hole 8 on my course is a relatively easy par 5, but there is one pin placement on the green which makes it obnoxiously difficult. It is in the front right, and if you go long, even by a foot, you are dead. You just tap the ball and if it doesn't hit the hole, it rolls off the front of the green and into the Bunker. I have gotten a 12 on that hole before. If it's in the back, it is a birdie hole however

Tappin!
 
It's okay to have a tough hole location, even one that makes a one-putt near impossible. What shouldn't happen is a putt that just misses (in terms of both direction and speed) turns into a three+putt. And what I really hate is an uphill putt that can barely miss the hole, and then roll back past you twice as far as you started. That's for courses with windmills on the greens.
 
Rusty said:
I used to work at a golf course in Alabama, and one Sunday a few players were coming in and complaining about the hole location on #16. The complaint was that the hole was too close to a slope, and if you hit the ball hole high but to the right, your putt would either catch the slope and roll several feet away from the hole, or else stay above the hole and leave you with a very tricky downhill putt for your second. One of the pros drove out to the green with the whining club members, and proceeded to sink 3 straight putts from each spot everyone said was "impossible". Surprisingly, this did not stop the complaining.
Click to expand...

Not sure that would have shut me up, either. In that situation, what I would want to see is the pro intentionally just miss the hole, but still be left with a reasonable putt. I've been to mini-golf courses that have a volcano-shaped hole -- a perfectly struck ball will drop, but a "just missed it" is no better than missing by a mile. I don't think that's fair on a regular golf course. But hey, I also believe "golf is not a game of perfect."
 
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