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Pace of play: then what is the answer?

JB said:
I am of the belief that the tees played doesnt make a huge deal as much as its discussed.
At the end of the day, people are just slow. They get to their ball and then take 2 minutes to even get into their setup.
Then all hell breaks less around the green (not on it, but around it).
Pre-shot routines get longer and longer the closer golfers get to the hole.
And of course in between holes, having to input all of their data to keep track of the data that they will never use.

If people would get to their ball, get the club and swing, and save the social stuff for slight delays, par 3s, etc. It would all go away.

At the end of the day, people forget that out of hundreds of players, it only takes 5 or so to take down the entire course.
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Very well said. I've played with people struggling to break 100 and gotten around in 3.5 hours, and I've played with scratch golfers who obsess over every shot for 5 minutes before pulling a club. Pace doesn't have a lot to do with skill or choosing the right tees.
 
wubears71 said:
I wish more courses had Red stakes where the rough meets the wastelands - whether it be desert, Forrest or tall grasses so people would just take a drop at the point of entry plus one stroke penalty. I get so sick of people looking for balls that even if found will more than likely take more than 1 stroke to get out of anyway.

I play used balls and will lose a dozen in a round where I'm just farting around because I never bother to look for those errant shots knowing the likelihood of finding is slim and none.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Same here. Especially at Gateway. If it's in the tall grass, drop another one and move on.
 
a couple thoughts come to mind, much of it maybe limited to me. if i am in a group, on a busy course, i do expect an occasional hold-up. i do not expect to be slowed or stopped at every hole and if I see a group causing the slow down i will call the clubhouse and ask for something to be done about it, please. Pace is not neccesarily about how quick the round can be or has to be but about flow. in a cart, alone, an open course, 2 hours 15 minutes. same course 4 guys walking, 3 hours, 45 minutes. same guys, busy course, 4 hours, 15 minutes. All 3 examples are paced well but different conditions. a lot of guys i golf with are slow, in my opinion, but they don't think so. i think i am fairly quick and thats how i like it. i don't look for a miss hit ball more than a glance or 2 because i don't care if i lose a ball. i haven't bough a ball in a year and a half and i must have 2 onion bags full of balls that i like that i found. some peolple do buy there balls and thre money matters. no matter what is done to the course there will always be slow players for one resason or another. a lot of golfers feel entitled to take their time because they are paying to do what they enjoy to do. if slow downs bothered me i would never play on a holiday, a late summer weekday, or weekend prime time.
 
JMN57 said:
Certainly not a universal answer but my personal one is to be the first group/one off the tee. I can get around 18 in 2:30 max that way even hitting a second ball when I am a solo.

What's also good in the first group is if the rest of the group is slow (I generally go as a single), I can separate from them and finish quickly. But I am not keeping a HC.
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My buddy and I play quite frequently as a twosome and get around in about 2:15 and when our third shows up we are not much longer than 2:30-2:45. We play ready golf and, of course, are riding. The foursome we used to have was typically finished in about 3:15.
 
Why not just put 75 foot nets on the sides of all the fairways and around the sides and back of the green? That's sure to keep the ball in play! Sort of like bumper bowling.
 
JMN57 said:
I agree with all of this.

It was pointed out earlier (or maybe the other thread) that people should watch a short video on etiquette (which is also common sense). Maybe courses should have a higher fee if you haven't watched the video. Watch a 5-10 minute video and your green fee is $10 less and they mark it on your profile so you don't have to do it again. That sounds extreme but many of the problems stem from those who just don't know better. Of course, we all know some people who should know better but believe the world revolves around them. Different tactics needed for those folks.
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100% agree! Just like you have to watch a video or take a drivers test before you get a license, you should have to do the same for golf. It's entrusted that everyone knows the rules/etiquette when arriving at the golf course, when in fact I am sure that 99% of people would get it wrong if they were asked a question about rules/etiquette before play. That's the issue really. This day of entitlement that "hey, I paid my money, I will play how I play and you play how you play. I don't care how long it takes." But you can debate about this forever ... nothing will change.

Not a Sermon .... Just a Thought
 
To me, it's about comprehension.

Most slow golfers don't realize they are slow. Of that group, I bet a solid chunk genuinely wouldn't care if you told them. It's their 4-5 hours and they aren't in a hurry to finish.

Is there a genuine solution? I think right around four hours is the threshold between sensibility, and dictating how a person enjoys their free time.
 
Canadan said:
To me, it's about comprehension.

Most slow golfers don't realize their slow. Of that group, I bet a solid chunk genuinely wouldn't care if you told them. It's their 4-5 hours and they aren't in a hurry to finish.

Is there a genuine solution? I think right around four hours is the threshold between sensibility, and dictating how a person enjoys their free time.
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Best comment so far Canadan!
 
dunleavy3 said:
Only one person to blame.... the person who set the expectation that a round of golf takes 4 hours. Should have made it 3 1/2.

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On most courses I've played, the posted expectation is 4½ hours, so it's worse than you stated. That is one huge problem with trying to retrain players. They have been conditioned to a 4½ hour round as being normal, so trying to tell them to play faster just gets resistance instead of cooperation. Also too many players simply don't know how to play at a faster pace without feeling rushed. They need to be educated on the principles of efficient play.

I feel that a posted maximum expectation of 4 hours on a public course for a fourball is acceptable. This is the time that should be met on a typical weekend round for 4 players of mixed abilities. During off peak times, or with smaller groups, required times should be less than that.

I feel that courses should post a complete policy, not just a time expectation. That policy should define the differences between peak and off peak hours, and modify the expectations accordingly. The times should be based on the realities of play for that course, not just on a number plucked from the air.

Rangers should be instructors and assistants as well as enforcers. Players should be made aware from the start that if the ranger observes players doing things which are not productive to the round AND which are also causing the group to fall behind, the ranger will not just be asking them to pick up the pace, but he will also point out the mistakes being made which caused the delay in the first place.

This is what I feel is necessary to bring about any real improvement in the pace of play. However, I don't see any courses actually taking steps to this extent. Until they do, I don't feel that there is going to be any real solution aside from just empowering tough rangers to push players around the course, and all that will do is create animosity rather than cooperation.
 
Fourputt said:
On most courses I've played, the posted expectation is 4½ hours, so it's worse than you stated. That is one huge problem with trying to retrain players. They have been conditioned to a 4½ hour round as being normal, so trying to tell them to play faster just gets resistance instead of cooperation. Also too many players simply don't know how to play at a faster pace without feeling rushed. They need to educated on the principles of efficient play.

I feel that a posted maximum expectation of 4 hours on a public course for a fourball is acceptable. This is the time that should be met on a typical weekend round for 4 players of mixed abilities. During off peak times, or with smaller groups then times should be less than that.

I feel that courses should post a complete policy, not just a time expectation. That policy should define the differences between peak and off peak hours, and modify the expectations accordingly. The times should be based on the realities of play for that course, not just on a number plucked from the air.

Rangers should be instructors and assistants as well as enforcers. Players should be made aware from the start that if the ranger observes players doing things which are not productive to the round AND which are also causing the group to fall behind, the ranger will not just be asking them to pick up the pace, but he will also point out the mistakes being made which caused the delay in the first place.

This is what I feel is necessary to bring about any real improvement in the pace of play. However, I don't see any courses actually taking steps to this extent. Until they do, I don't feel that there is going to be any real solution aside from just empowering tough rangers to push players around the course, and all that will do is create animosity rather than cooperation.
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Brilliant.

When one does encounter a ranger doing their job, too often they just say pick up the pace and it comes across as someone who doesn't totally understand how the problem arose (sometimes it is not the fault of the group that is being admonished) and that it is a scolding. As a result, the foursome fumes and thinks the ranger is a jerk. By linking SPECIFIC OBSERVED ACTIONS and suggesting the group fix those things the ranger is both validating the observation and criticism and also educating the group.

As an aside, if the course is responsible for the fiasco they should own up to it (and frankly learn from their mistake). Unfortunately, some courses just care about collecting greens fees and will pack the course on a nice/busy day. The only recourse with those is to avoid them.
 
I agree with several in here that 4 hours is the threshold of sensibility. I start getting impatient if it takes longer than this. I also definitely agree with ITR in that people should tee it forward, and that calling the front tees the "ladies tees" is pretty stupid and sexist - and it causes men who really ought to be playing from there to play further back due to macho bullsh**.

However, I think that mandating which clubs people can use off the tee is a little extreme because it's different for everyone. I've seen beginners who hit their driver great and can't hit an iron off the turf to save their life, just as much as I've seen people who hit the irons fine and are slice monsters with the big stick. The key is hitting provisionals when in doubt and not taking forever searching for lost balls - after a minute or two, just move on. It's just golf, after all.
 
JMN57 said:
Brilliant.

When one does encounter a ranger doing their job, too often they just say pick up the pace and it comes across as someone who doesn't totally understand how the problem arose (sometimes it is not the fault of the group that is being admonished) and that it is a scolding. As a result, the foursome fumes and thinks the ranger is a jerk. By linking SPECIFIC OBSERVED ACTIONS and suggesting the group fix those things the ranger is both validating the observation and criticism and also educating the group.

As an aside, if the course is responsible for the fiasco they should own up to it (and frankly learn from their mistake). Unfortunately, some courses just care about collecting greens fees and will pack the course on a nice/busy day. The only recourse with those is to avoid them.
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Problem being is that most, if not all, Rangers don't take the job of "marshalling" very serious. (at least from what I've seen) They are there just to pass the time away, get an easy paycheck, and for the free golf. Getting courses to adopt this for every one of them would be the first task.
Marshal: "Hey guys, looks like you are a hole behind. Would you mind picking up the pace? Ok thanks. Gotta go back to the pro shop now."
Then no one sees him again until the pro shop is called again for slow play.
 
When I play with my friends, they all stand around and watch each other shoot. I try to explain that we all do not need to watch each other swing...then watch each one of our balls fly through the air then bounce...

Few of them get mad but...I mean seriously we all watch each other swing in the tee box, we don't need to do it again on the fairways or rough...
 
My best "golf friend" happens to be one of the slowest players I've ever played with. He'll play fast with me - mainly because I make fun of him every second if he plays slowly - but if left to his own devices, he will crawl around the course just fast enough to stay in front of the group behind. Unlike most, however, he knows he plays slow and his reasoning is simple: "I paid [however much the course cost]. I will enjoy my round!"

And that is part of the rub. Playing a round is expensive. And golf balls, especially high end balls, are ~ $2.00 a ball. Losing a few golf balls adds up. Telling someone to speed up, after that person spent $100 on a round, $30 in food, and after losing another $20 in golf balls, is tough.
 
JB said:
I am of the belief that the tees played doesnt make a huge deal as much as its discussed.
At the end of the day, people are just slow. They get to their ball and then take 2 minutes to even get into their setup.
Then all hell breaks less around the green (not on it, but around it).
Pre-shot routines get longer and longer the closer golfers get to the hole.
And of course in between holes, having to input all of their data to keep track of the data that they will never use.

If people would get to their ball, get the club and swing, and save the social stuff for slight delays, par 3s, etc. It would all go away.

At the end of the day, people forget that out of hundreds of players, it only takes 5 or so to take down the entire course.
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This. Playing ready golf would go a long way to speed up play. Our groups play this all the time, get to tee/ball and hit, no honors. We average 3:45/4 on our rounds and are playing for some $. So we take time on greens and put everything out.
 
Dr RosenRosen said:
My best "golf friend" happens to be one of the slowest players I've ever played with. He'll play fast with me - mainly because I make fun of him every second if he plays slowly - but if left to his own devices, he will crawl around the course just fast enough to stay in front of the group behind. Unlike most, however, he knows he plays slow and his reasoning is simple: "I paid [however much the course cost]. I will enjoy my round!"

And that is part of the rub. Playing a round is expensive. And golf balls, especially high end balls, are ~ $2.00 a ball. Losing a few golf balls adds up. Telling someone to speed up, after that person spent $100 on a round, $30 in food, and after losing another $20 in golf balls, is tough.
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Good thoughts. Exactly how I feel. While some are well aware, can you blame them for not caring? Just because a round of golf is ideal at three hours for some doesn't mean it's ideal for others.

That's why I think it's important for the course to set a standard pace of play and genuinely enforce it.... But, rangers don't get paid enough to commit to getting in the face of slow golfers. It's a brutal mix.
 
To me there are basically two different epicly "slow" groups that end up slowing down 90-95% of all other golfers.

Group 1: Really bad hacks that have to find sprinkler heads to get "their number" before they roll it 20-30 yards or slice it off into the woods. There's nothing wrong with being a really bad golfer. I know I was there once but I was never slow about it. One of the best things I ever did for speeding up my round was buying a range finder. Have one per cart really improves the "find sprinkler head and work out a number" approach that so many groups fall into. The truth is that most double digit handicaps only need a rough estimate of the yardage to the middle of the green to be just as effective as knowing a right number. Even most single digit handicaps are happy to get +/- 5 yards on shots over 120 yards.

Group 2: The old men/betting group that takes their round way too seriously. These are the guys that are pretty fast golfers but spend an insane amount of time lining up every single putt once they get on the green because something is on the line. There's nothing wrong with a serious match or a wager match, but those groups always seem to take just a little bit too long.
 
I think one of the biggest problems with regards to slow play is the fact that people don't even know they are slow golfers. Therefore, when the marshal comes around and mentions the slow play, those who don't know they are slow will think it's someone else in the group and not adjust their routine at all. Until these types of golfers realize they are playing slow, slow play will just not go away.

As JB said, at the end of the day it simply comes down to playing ready golf. Some know how to play ready golf, others don't.
 
Chump Fries said:
To me there are basically two different epicly "slow" groups that end up slowing down 90-95% of all other golfers.

Group 1: Really bad hacks that have to find sprinkler heads to get "their number" before they roll it 20-30 yards or slice it off into the woods. There's nothing wrong with being a really bad golfer. I know I was there once but I was never slow about it. One of the best things I ever did for speeding up my round was buying a range finder. Have one per cart really improves the "find sprinkler head and work out a number" approach that so many groups fall into. The truth is that most double digit handicaps only need a rough estimate of the yardage to the middle of the green to be just as effective as knowing a right number. Even most single digit handicaps are happy to get +/- 5 yards on shots over 120 yards.

Group 2: The old men/betting group that takes their round way too seriously. These are the guys that are pretty fast golfers but spend an insane amount of time lining up every single putt once they get on the green because something is on the line. There's nothing wrong with a serious match or a wager match, but those groups always seem to take just a little bit too long.
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Learned a little something about both of these on Friday. My rangefinder battery is dead (need to replace, btw lol), and so I didn't have exact numbers for most of the day...and guess what, I played fine. It's nice to have, but as long as I can ballpark it I can usually do pretty well.

On the second one, Army and I were paired with a younger guy and older guy who had some money on the line, and your assessment is completely true. Especially the older guy, who was just painfully slow. Every shot took forever...and it didn't go very far either. Mind numbing.
 
Just hit into the slow group - JK.....

Lots of great points so far....below are ones which I feel are major factors (some of which have already been stated):

1. Waiting for a par 5 green to clear - not only the player about to hit the shot and topping it 15 yards, but the other player standing next to him waiting to hit instead of going to their balls.

2. Rangers not doing their jobs - I get that there is only so much they can do but they need to stay on top of certain groups if they continue to hold up play.

3. Players thinking they are entitled to take as long as they want - I get it, you are paying a premium (some courses upwards of $100+ to play) and you want to enjoy the round. However, while they are enjoying their round other groups are not enjoying theirs.

4. Singles on weekends - I don't get this at all and saw it more this past season than others - however on more than one occasion saw a starter letting out a 4some, then 3some, then a 2some, then single, then 2some - after my group went out a single was let out and we were waiting all day - he asked if he could play through which further clogged up the course and made the round longer than needed.

5. Cart path only - this should be changed to "Walking only" A country club I used to caddy at simply would not let carts out if the course was too wet which makes more sense than cart path only - you end up walking more with this rule instead of walking the course - granted the course might lose out on money but the golfers on the course will take it more seriously and pace of play will improve.

6. 3-putt maximum - if you are going for your 3rd putt and it took you 4 to get there, just pick up - no sense on becoming more frustrated and then on the next tee slicing one into the woods since you are upset about a triple.
 
Dr RosenRosen said:
My best "golf friend" happens to be one of the slowest players I've ever played with. He'll play fast with me - mainly because I make fun of him every second if he plays slowly - but if left to his own devices, he will crawl around the course just fast enough to stay in front of the group behind. Unlike most, however, he knows he plays slow and his reasoning is simple: "I paid [however much the course cost]. I will enjoy my round!"

And that is part of the rub. Playing a round is expensive. And golf balls, especially high end balls, are ~ $2.00 a ball. Losing a few golf balls adds up. Telling someone to speed up, after that person spent $100 on a round, $30 in food, and after losing another $20 in golf balls, is tough.
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You tell him that you and everyone else paid the same and they don't deserve to be stuck waiting behind his road block just because he is so full of himself. That may sound harsh, but it's a simple fact that he needs to learn.
 
JB said:
I am of the belief that the tees played doesnt make a huge deal as much as its discussed.
At the end of the day, people are just slow. They get to their ball and then take 2 minutes to even get into their setup.
Then all hell breaks less around the green (not on it, but around it).
Pre-shot routines get longer and longer the closer golfers get to the hole.
And of course in between holes, having to input all of their data to keep track of the data that they will never use.

If people would get to their ball, get the club and swing, and save the social stuff for slight delays, par 3s, etc. It would all go away.

At the end of the day, people forget that out of hundreds of players, it only takes 5 or so to take down the entire course.
Click to expand...

I agree. Course design and setup can play a part as well, but we do live in a me me me me world. I'd rather be sitting on the course waiting than at work..........
 
When I play as a single I play deliberately and let anyone play through if they ask.

(if they are at all rude though, they can wait. respect is #1)

Fourputt said:
You tell him that you and everyone else paid the same and they don't deserve to be stuck waiting behind his road block just because he is so full of himself. That may sound harsh, but it's a simple fact that he needs to learn.
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