Jmilla
Member
Sorry couldn't resist that song popped into my head when reading this thread lol
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Real Deal Tour Shafts Vs OEM Made For...Can you tell the difference...How?
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actually, there have been tests of professionals in which not only did they fail to pick out high quality wines vs low quality wines, but they've also failed to pick out red vs white when put into opaque glasses and they've failed to discern a low quality wine when it is poured from an expensive pedigreed bottle.
and the wine analogy is interesting as it relates to golf because of confirmation bias. golf is rife with examples of confirmation bias (my endo forged are better than your clicky cast oem garbage, or my real deal limited edition rogue is better than your made for rogue 95 msi, etc).
to the topic, the only time I've agreed that retail should be pursued over made for is in a custom fitting setting like club champion. I was fit for a Big Bertha with Tour Blue 65. the fitter warned me that if I found a deal on what seemed to be that same setup, I might be getting the made for tour blue. he was very direct that he wasn't suggesting the made for would be a bad fit, he just couldn't give me his stamp of approval on that setup because it could be different than what he fit me in because the made for could perform differently than the retail.
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Galen Marek
Well-known member
Here is a review of the OEM Fubuki and ZT. Doesn't really tackle the "made for" vs aftermarket controversy but it establishes that the "made for" are still high quality products.
http://www.golfshaftreviews.info/index.php/mitsubishi-fubuki-z-and-fubuki-zt-golf-shaft-review/
For me the key part is this:
"The Fubuki Z is indeed a quality shaft, it is just not made in the Mitsubishi Japanese facility. While many of the great shafts of the highest quality are made in Japan, other production facilities around the world are capable of the same level of quality. And many have put in place stringent quality control standards that assure only quality products go out the door. What I have measured in the review samples of the Fubuki Z and ZT indicate this is certainly true on this line of shafts. Radial consistency of the Fubuki Z was 98.8% with a 0.7% standard deviation and 99.4% with a 0.4% standard deviation for the Fubuki ZT. These are outstanding numbers as they should be for a shaft offered in a driver with a rotating hosel. Shaft alignment is not a concern with these shafts. Shaft to shaft consistency is not the same as the awesome quality seen in the Mitsubishi Japan productions, but it is respectable."
http://www.golfshaftreviews.info/index.php/mitsubishi-fubuki-z-and-fubuki-zt-golf-shaft-review/
For me the key part is this:
"The Fubuki Z is indeed a quality shaft, it is just not made in the Mitsubishi Japanese facility. While many of the great shafts of the highest quality are made in Japan, other production facilities around the world are capable of the same level of quality. And many have put in place stringent quality control standards that assure only quality products go out the door. What I have measured in the review samples of the Fubuki Z and ZT indicate this is certainly true on this line of shafts. Radial consistency of the Fubuki Z was 98.8% with a 0.7% standard deviation and 99.4% with a 0.4% standard deviation for the Fubuki ZT. These are outstanding numbers as they should be for a shaft offered in a driver with a rotating hosel. Shaft alignment is not a concern with these shafts. Shaft to shaft consistency is not the same as the awesome quality seen in the Mitsubishi Japan productions, but it is respectable."
I think that's the review I was thinking of when I asked my question earlier. Either way, like you concluded - quality is still there. It says a lot about improvements in materials technology in the past decade or so.
Martsy
New member
Real Deal Tour Shafts Vs OEM Made For...Can you tell the difference...How?
I have no problem whatsoever with "made for" shafts, but there really should be some visible differentiation in naming convention from "real deal" shafts. I can't think of any other industry off hand where this is practiced intentionally
I have no problem whatsoever with "made for" shafts, but there really should be some visible differentiation in naming convention from "real deal" shafts. I can't think of any other industry off hand where this is practiced intentionally
ProZoneGolf
Clubmaker/Fitter
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- #81
The intention is to make the buyer feel like he has what the pro's play, as it looks the same as the real deal. Many call non golf items like these: fake, counter fit, watered down, made for, not real, replicas.. This needs to change and industry leaders need to voice the concern. OEM's rant about knock off' clubs from China yet they are knocking off their own shafts...
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- #82
Is an off the shelf driver 'watered down' because it's not tour issue?
Yes, because you are thinking you are getting the exact same club that the Pros play. The OEMs, Dan! The OEMs are deceiving you! They are decepticons!
tpluff
I <3 GAWLF
I can't handle it anymore. This is too funny.
How is a stock shaft "watered down", as you say? Is it of lesser quality? Does it not perform as well? Does it physically make the golfer worse? Do they cost as much as the real stuff?
Is this really even relevant now, or is the Aldila Rogue I/O I got in my Callaway 816 "fake" or "counterfeit"?
Seems like a LOT of companies, as in almost all, are ditching this practice and putting in great stock shafts, and a great number of no-upcharge shaft options for the consumer.
How is a stock shaft "watered down", as you say? Is it of lesser quality? Does it not perform as well? Does it physically make the golfer worse? Do they cost as much as the real stuff?
Is this really even relevant now, or is the Aldila Rogue I/O I got in my Callaway 816 "fake" or "counterfeit"?
Seems like a LOT of companies, as in almost all, are ditching this practice and putting in great stock shafts, and a great number of no-upcharge shaft options for the consumer.
I find it laughable to lump made for shafts into the knockoff category.
If it's not Tour Issue, then you are being duped in to thinking you are getting the same club the pros play. I mean, by all means, we KNOW a consumer never does their research prior to making a purchase to see if the shaft offering is suitable to what they want in a shaft.
tpluff
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Just wondering if you have the real deal, same spec'd shaft, to show in the same test?
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Most consumers (golfers) don't do their research. They just go into a store and swing a club on the monitors and looks at the total distance number. They don't understand what spin, launch, or smash factor mean. Having worked in the retail golf business a few years ago, I saw it every day at work.
In keeping with this topic, can we please just agree that THPers are not "most golfers". The fact that they are members here shows that they take golf more seriously that a casual hobby they do once or twice a year. THPers like to stay informed of golf equipment and what they spend their money on.
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capt.dru
Well-known member
I was going to ask the same thing. He is obviously pushing his agenda by not testing a real deal shaft.
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A high ranking and well respected golf instructor and club fitter once told me that some club manufacturers do a very good job of building clubs to the exact specs they are given, while others do notoriously sloppy work. So part of the deal when getting custom fit is on the fitter and part is on whoever builds the clubs. If the shaft isn't right, they don't have to use it.
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I've heard a couple of things suggested regarding graphite shaft "inconsistencies".
One is variations in quality based on manufacturing site. The idea that one site can build to a higher quality standard than an other. In this case, to me it matters what the specs are. If both manufacturing sites build to the same specs and quality control makes sure what they ship meets these standards, morally I don't have an issue with the manufacturer putting the same make/model on these shafts. If however, the two sites have different quality standards or one site is letting through product that doesn't meet the standards, then I feel calling them the same model is unethical.
The other accusation that has been raised is shafts whose basic design/construction is different: different layering, thicknesses and/or materials. Calling these shafts the same make/model is to me akin to making a knockoff and selling it as the real deal--and just as unethical.
One is variations in quality based on manufacturing site. The idea that one site can build to a higher quality standard than an other. In this case, to me it matters what the specs are. If both manufacturing sites build to the same specs and quality control makes sure what they ship meets these standards, morally I don't have an issue with the manufacturer putting the same make/model on these shafts. If however, the two sites have different quality standards or one site is letting through product that doesn't meet the standards, then I feel calling them the same model is unethical.
The other accusation that has been raised is shafts whose basic design/construction is different: different layering, thicknesses and/or materials. Calling these shafts the same make/model is to me akin to making a knockoff and selling it as the real deal--and just as unethical.
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Who is the finger being pointed at, by the way. Is it the shaft companies or the club manufacturers?
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The amateur golf consumer who expects to get "tour issue" equipment.
ProZoneGolf
Clubmaker/Fitter
- Thread starter
- #95
IMO: Anyone who supports that look a like made for shafts are just as good quality as the real deal...perhaps are in the pocket of OEM's...
Any Golf leaders working with OEM's in any way shape or form, need to apply pressure that made for shafts are are not disguised as real deal. You can have both, but don't try and fool the buyer he has what the pro's play by making the shaft look identical. Like that VW is a Porsche, regardless of how you drive it...
What leaders from THP are going to voice this concern...any?...were are you?...start a petition please
Any Golf leaders working with OEM's in any way shape or form, need to apply pressure that made for shafts are are not disguised as real deal. You can have both, but don't try and fool the buyer he has what the pro's play by making the shaft look identical. Like that VW is a Porsche, regardless of how you drive it...
What leaders from THP are going to voice this concern...any?...were are you?...start a petition please
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tpluff
I <3 GAWLF
Why not sign up for a THP event with a shaft manufacturer and get the answer straight from them (like THP prides itself on)? There's quite a few this year. Maybe then this can be settled instead of constantly slinging mud around?
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Again, are you blaming this on the club manufacturers or the shaft manufacturers?
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This is a good question, since it's not like the club manufacturers are building some generic shaft and slapping the graphics from a shaft manufacturers on it. The shaft companies are actually producing these.
lightningbolt44
Well-known member
This is an interesting thread. For one most oems now offer the real deal off the rack and also have no upcharge real deal options so lets not apply logic from 5-10 years ago again. Things change people evolve and adapt to that change at their own pace.
Having a discussion about something is fine but the way this is being handled and the subtle shots nothing productive will come out of the discussion.
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Having a discussion about something is fine but the way this is being handled and the subtle shots nothing productive will come out of the discussion.
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- #100
This is a very good point. Seeing companies offer dozens of shafts at no upcharge and strongly recommend fittings is in the present.
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