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Why fast fast greens ?

fortunato51

fortunato51

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Greens can, in deed, be too fast though I'm not sure anyone would tolerate going back to the 5-7 speeds of the 70's. Many older greens have far too much slope for modern speeds and modern grasses. We are looking at changing from bent to a dwarf bermuda grass and our greens would have to be reshaped because of drainage requirements and because there would be no places to put the holes because of slope. Now, we have the lethal combination of fast greens with soft surfaces. Balls do not roll true since it is subject to every little dent and irregularity on down slope putts. Often times, a good putting day is measured by the number of three putts or four putts instead of one putts. Most of the time I am tickled with a two-putt and putt very defensively.

So the answer to the OP question is Yes, green speeds do identify the best golfer not so much because of putting skills but because of the course management skills required to get the ball into the right positions on the greens.
 
Well said Don.
 
This makes a lot of sense to me. We had the discussion at Fyre Lake last weekend. The greens weren't what I'd call fast, which is something you almost come to expect at really high end courses. I don't think the course would be playable if they were much faster though. Too much undulation and slope for the normal guy.
 
I don't mind the speed as much as I mind how the ball rolls. some courses double cut their crappy greens and you watch the ball go left/right the whole way. if they roll true I don't care about the speed..at least up until about 12-13 on the stimp then its hard regardless . one thing I cant stand is super slow greens where downhill putts come short
 
Personally I love really fast greens, but only when the pins are in fair locations. Severe slopes don't bother me too much as long as the hole isn't cut in the middle of a ridge or slope. Then that's rather bush league.

The faster they are though, the smoother the stroke seems to get and then for me it's less about speed and more about line and starting it correctly.
 
That's an interesting article. I actually don't agree with the shorter fairways. I don't see it as a problem. I struggle (particularly if I don't release my wrists) to get the ball high whether I'm on tall fairways or tight lies. Being in the rough or taller grass has never assisted me to get the ball in the air.

As for greens, yea, it screws up pace of play. But if you want to see what old school greens were like, just come on over to my home course. I bet they fall in that 4-6 feet of roll category from the 70s.

~Rock
 
Mward said:
Personally I love really fast greens, but only when the pins are in fair locations. Severe slopes don't bother me too much as long as the hole isn't cut in the middle of a ridge or slope. Then that's rather bush league.

The faster they are though, the smoother the stroke seems to get and then for me it's less about speed and more about line and starting it correctly.
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This too is where I stand. I putt much better on faster greens but better when they roll true of course. I feel I can see lines rather well, but speed is always my biggest issue. If the greens are fast, then usually my stroke lends itself well.
 
Up to a certain extent I like fast greens because it allows a smoother stroke. I've only played one course (pasture) with really slow greens and my putting was hideous because I needed a 40ft stroke to move the ball 10 ft and I couldn't judge breaks at all since it rolls so much slower almost everything went straighter than it should.
 
As someone else pointed out, faster greens point out the most accurate golfer and course manager. Getting an approach shot to the right part of the green becomes a higher priority, getting an approach to stick, all reward better golfers. As such, I don't mind faster greens for tournaments, or going to high-end courses, etc. Those courses also have the right personnel with the know how to keep the greens consistent and workable all day long.

I think where speed-creep gets a little more iffy is the trickle-down effect to munis and public courses that have difficulty keeping greens consistent through the day, or that make up for less-than-stellar greens with draconian hole locations. Combine that with less-skilled players who are aiming for the middle of the green and it's a recipe for frustration.
 
Fast greens generally means slow play for regular amateur play, especially when the people placing the pins don't have a clue. Nothing slows up afternoon play on Friday or the weekends like fast greens with the pin placed on a slope. :sad:
 
I don't really like that they are correlating greens to fairways in that article, because I don't think they should be treated in the same category. I tend to agree that having very short fairways makes it harder on some golfers, but at the same time, the shorter they are cut, and the firmer they are, the better chance player 'x' who hits the ball an average length will get some added roll out, and have a shorter iron into the green.

As far as greens go, I have heard lots of discussion (especially at my home course) about altering irrigation methods and changing fertilizers and such. Reducing the growth cycle and relying more on a roll than a cut, as well as having the grass not die out. Frankly, I despise slow greens. I find them to be rarely true to line, and more of a game of plinko vs an accurate test of talent.

I do think there is a limit that greens should be played, but I seriously doubt any sort of legitimate percentage of Nationwide public courses are nearing that point right now.
 
I don't mind what the speed of the green is as long as the putts role true to the line. If the putt bounces up/down or back/forth through the putt then its all luck. You can adjust fairly well to the speed of the greens after a few holes.
 
I like fast greens but not excessively fast, I really like putting on fairly quick greens as they test your short game and putting.
 
I'm in the minority. I prefer somewhat slower greens, where I can give the ball a more solid rap.
That's just because I've got a bit of a tremor and that minimizes it. Super fast greens, I'm all over the lot.

Tight fairways are fine, tight and hardpan can be ugly. I can't see why the 2 are lumped together myself, other than both fast greens and fast fairways are more work and more water to keep in shape.

I'll play fast greens, sure. I do think putting really quick greens is a talent of its own. I think some people just think "the faster the greens the better the course" which isn't necessarily so.
 
Mward said:
Personally I love really fast greens, but only when the pins are in fair locations. Severe slopes don't bother me too much as long as the hole isn't cut in the middle of a ridge or slope. Then that's rather bush league.

The faster they are though, the smoother the stroke seems to get and then for me it's less about speed and more about line and starting it correctly.
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Couldn't agree more. Greens at my home course are like putting on concrete and I love it that way.
 
Local course has three greens that are sloped a great deal. What bothers me is they continually put the pin in crazy places. I've had good rounds ruined by one of these holes on more than one occasion.
 
I find that once you get over 9 it starts getting a little tough for me. I am not always as accurate as I would like to be with approach shots and putting to try to try and stop the ball 6' below the hole from above it makes for a long day.

Speed should match the size and amount of contour on the greens to give you an opportunity to leave the ball close from anywhere on the green.
 
Good comments everyone....thank you. I was quite interested in what Don said concerning 'lethal fast greens'...a good day putting being minimizing 3 and 4 putts and putting defensively....some may call this Golf but I don't see how being punished on a green after having reached it in regulation is in the 'spirit' of Golf. I'm with Ben Hogan on this...putting, especially on these modern greens, often tricked up to unplayable or unrealistic and/or unnatural speeds, has been given far too much emphasis. Reward a good golf shot and reward being on the green itself. Just some thoughts.
 
Also...I think that a golfer should have a reasonable opportunity to two putt at least if one has reached the green and has some sort of decent putting stroke. Just my humble opinion.
 
Played a course last weekend and the greens were running 13. I honestly don't mind the fast green part...but when they aren't anywhere near flat, it makes it difficult. I had 32 putts and I hit some great putts.... but when you have an 8 footer down hill and unless you hit the hole, you've got 10 feet coming back....It just makes it a test of being on the right part of the green at the right time. The more undulation, the slower they should be I think .
 
I recently played at a resort with two courses that were very different, one with relatively slow greens and the other much faster. The slow greens were more frustrating to me, harder to judge pace especially on longer putts. It made shorter uphill putts fairly easy I guess, but I felt I putted better on the faster one. It wasn't a 13 though, maybe a 10-11
 
Fast greens are the only thing I really expect when I head to the course. I can't stand slow greens, it really does ruin my day. The faster the better
 
Tadashi70 said:
Fast greens are the only thing I really expect when I head to the course. I can't stand slow greens, it really does ruin my day. The faster the better
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This is how I feel. Faster greens are easier for me because you can just pick a line and start the ball rolling. Plus faster greens tend to roll more true in my experience.
 
Lefty78 said:
Greens can, in deed, be too fast though I'm not sure anyone would tolerate going back to the 5-7 speeds of the 70's. Many older greens have far too much slope for modern speeds and modern grasses. We are looking at changing from bent to a dwarf bermuda grass and our greens would have to be reshaped because of drainage requirements and because there would be no places to put the holes because of slope. Now, we have the lethal combination of fast greens with soft surfaces. Balls do not roll true since it is subject to every little dent and irregularity on down slope putts. Often times, a good putting day is measured by the number of three putts or four putts instead of one putts. Most of the time I am tickled with a two-putt and putt very defensively.

So the answer to the OP question is Yes, green speeds do identify the best golfer not so much because of putting skills but because of the course management skills required to get the ball into the right positions on the greens.
Click to expand...

Never thought of it this way until Lefty mentioned it and really think it's the best possible answer.
 
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