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The Open Stance full swing philosophy

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sickyspider

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Hello all

I haven't posted on here in a while due to being busy with work and life in general.

Does anyone subscribe to the above philosophy and the web page called the OS Academy?

It makes total sense for those of us plagued with a frequent outside to inside swing plane.

I have had so many lessons to resolve this and all that has happened is any swing I had was ruined and plagued with too many swing thoughts! Pulls, slices, low ball flight and shanks were all too common despite 3 different coaches guidance. I quite often hit the ball well during a lesson and then went to pieces later on and got frustrated with everything and it affected my enjoyment of golf. Coaches banging on about feet, hips and shoulders being square to the target line just ruined my swing when many of the great ball strikers stood open like Nicklaus, Couples and Trevino. I believe it is a more natural way to swing the club.

I now realise that my best ball striking has always been with a slightly open stance, mainly straight or with a little fade and occasionally a small draw if needed. My hips fire naturally from this set up and my arms follow and my swing is shallower. I only realised recently when analysing my game over the last year or so. I always seemed to strike the ball best when on the left side of the fairway as my feet were open to the target line whereas on the right I suffered terribly with misalignment and either being square or actually closed but but believing I was square! Properly messed up at set up. I have now realised why and set up open deliberately and my ball striking is so much better 90% of the time and I now regularly break 90 playing 2-3 per month in the summer with a few rounds in the low 80s. I think if I push myself I can break 80 as my pitching, chipping and putting is much tighter!

My sincere advice to anyone suffering from the same swing fault as me (over the top) is to try the open stance set up. Experiment with degrees of openness and see what works best but make sure your shoulders are parallel to the target line. If you are like me your ball striking will improve dramatically and your trajectory too. You will enjoy the game much more as I am now doing. I just pick my target line and set up to it and let it go! No swing thoughts just an easy free flowing swing with the best results I have ever had! For those of you that persist with coaches who insist on everything being square at set up and yet don't see consistent and sustained improvement, I wish you luck as ultimately I believe you are banging your head against a brick wall and wasting money! I know I will never have another swing lesson ever again while the current flawed set up formula is in place!

Good luck to all! :)
 
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glad you found something that's working with you, and kudos on bringing the scores down. seems like the opposite would be true, with an open stance promoting an ott move. but again, love hearing success stories.
 
That is the received wisdom but actually you swing along your shoulder line not your feet line. There are a few enlightened PGA coaches who now teach this. My shoulders are square to the target line but my feet are slightly open. If you set up properly this way slightly open, it will shallow out your swing. David Leadbetter has spoken about this I know.
 
Sounds very familiar and I am learning to swing my natural swing again with fewer swing thoughts. I will say though that the lower body, especially the hips is what dictates things and if the open stance helps you get those hips firing first then you're golden. Starting the swing from the top is what causes the OTT move if I'm not mistaken.
 
i'm a firm believer in the open stance (because of big tummy) full swing - just comes down to human physics - well in my case it does
 
Glad you found something that works, but this exact thing is what caused me to play terribly when starting out. I had an open stance when thinking I was square. Caused a wicked slice and very high scores. If it works for you that's brilliant though
 
Ok I will say again, if your shoulders are open to the target line you will slice the ball or at best fade depending on the degree of openness because the golf swing follows the shoulder line. People who don't understand the golf swing frequently mix up open stance and open shoulders. I am advocating a slightly open stance but square shoulders to target line.
 
Moosejaa, you are so right the open stance is what allows the lower body and hips to fire towards the target, leaving the arms trailing and club lagging behind. I fully accept that not everyone will need to open their stance but if you have a frequent pull/slice/low ball flight this will definitely improve things rapidly.
 
sickyspider said:
Ok I will say again, if your shoulders are open to the target line you will slice the ball or at best fade depending on the degree of openness because the golf swing follows the shoulder line. People who don't understand the golf swing frequently mix up open stance and open shoulders. I am advocating a slightly open stance but square shoulders to target line.
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For most I would say your feet/hips end up dictating direction of your swing more than shoulders. If anything is out of line, then most people tend to swing to compensate, which in turn loses directional control. That's why there is such an emphasis on lining up square, and hence why if you're trying to fade the ball you open your stance and swing normally. Your body will naturally go the way of your feet in that case and cut across the ball, ending up with a fade. It's like this in any sport that requires similar movement (hockey/lacrosse/baseball), you make sure your lower body is firing towards your target and the rest of you will follow suit. If you learn how to control it by just swinging your shoulders, that's great. You can swing all arms in what you're describing, but I doubt you have much power in that swing. If it works for you that's great, but I don't think that's going to be a positive swing thought for most.

just my 2 cents is all. And I could be wrong but I've had that issue in the past and it was extremely detrimental.
 
sickyspider said:
Ok I will say again, if your shoulders are open to the target line you will slice the ball or at best fade depending on the degree of openness because the golf swing follows the shoulder line. People who don't understand the golf swing frequently mix up open stance and open shoulders. I am advocating a slightly open stance but square shoulders to target line.
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but the hips can STILL pull the plane left by firing out of sequence. unless you have ridiculous flexibility and can keep the shoulders on plane while the hips are way open, i wouldn't advocate this move. again, i'm glad it worked for you, but it has nothing to do with not understanding the golf swing or being more enlightened than conventional wisdom for the past 400 years.
 
caeleric said:
but the hips can STILL pull the plane left by firing out of sequence. unless you have ridiculous flexibility and can keep the shoulders on plane while the hips are way open, i wouldn't advocate this move. again, i'm glad it worked for you, but it has nothing to do with not understanding the golf swing or being more enlightened than conventional wisdom for the past 400 years.
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I'm not advocating a hugely open stance or as you say "way open". I believe you can set up quite easily with a slightly open stance yet have hips and shoulders square and I'm by no means super flexible. I'm in my mid 40s with an aviation related lower back injury 8 years ago!

If you Google Jim Mclean PGA and David Leadbetter they both did short articles in Golf Digest advocating what I'm saying. At least be 'open minded' - no pun intended! Lol

John Wright a PGA coach came up with the Open Stance Academy web site and there is a YouTube explanation of it by John although the quality is not too good!
 
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If you find something that works for you, go for it. Hope it keeps working. I putt with a slightly open stance, but that is it unless I must hit a slice.
 
I solved my outside in swing with the help of my instructor in a few minutes. My problem was that i was not rotating my hips. Once i made an effort to rotate my hips, even just a little, it completely cured my slice. Because i wasn't turning my hips, i ended up having too much upper body.
 
I hope the fix lasts a long time for you. Nothing more frustrating that stumbling on a compensation, only to need to compensate for the compensation a few weeks later
 
I set up open to the target from the waist down with all my long clubs. Shoulders square.

It's a mental hitch for me because when I set up truly square my brain tells me I'm insanely closed and I can't do it.
 
ArmyGolf said:
I set up open to the target from the waist down with all my long clubs. Shoulders square.

It's a mental hitch for me because when I set up truly square my brain tells me I'm insanely closed and I can't do it.
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This is very true and I have felt this for many months. My playing partners telling me I'm closed when I thought I was square. This really screws with the mind and caused all sorts of compensations in the downswing!

They say the most important distance in golf is between your ears! :)
 
blugold said:
I hope the fix lasts a long time for you. Nothing more frustrating that stumbling on a compensation, only to need to compensate for the compensation a few weeks later
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This philosophy is not a fix or a compensation - it is a cure! Once a few permanent set up adjustments are made its extremely repeatable and has freed my swing from tension and anxiety and boosted rhythm and tempo. For me it feels so natural but because it appears counter intuitive it may not be for everyone!
 
sickyspider said:
That is the received wisdom but actually you swing along your shoulder line not your feet line. There are a few enlightened PGA coaches who now teach this. My shoulders are square to the target line but my feet are slightly open. If you set up properly this way slightly open, it will shallow out your swing. David Leadbetter has spoken about this I know.
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Cam you explain how an open stance shallows out your swing?
 
cbaker2882 said:
For most I would say your feet/hips end up dictating direction of your swing more than shoulders. If anything is out of line, then most people tend to swing to compensate, which in turn loses directional control. That's why there is such an emphasis on lining up square, and hence why if you're trying to fade the ball you open your stance and swing normally. Your body will naturally go the way of your feet in that case and cut across the ball, ending up with a fade. It's like this in any sport that requires similar movement (hockey/lacrosse/baseball), you make sure your lower body is firing towards your target and the rest of you will follow suit. If you learn how to control it by just swinging your shoulders, that's great. You can swing all arms in what you're describing, but I doubt you have much power in that swing. If it works for you that's great, but I don't think that's going to be a positive swing thought for most.

just my 2 cents is all. And I could be wrong but I've had that issue in the past and it was extremely detrimental.
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The shoulders dictate the direction of the swing.
 
cbaker2882 said:
Like I said, I could be wrong. I have no problem admitting that.
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Just so we are clear. Most swings have the face going one direction, shoulders another, hips another. These three set the tone for the two way miss.
 
Tadashi70 said:
Just so we are clear. Most swings have the face going one direction, shoulders another, hips another. These three set the tone for the two way miss.
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Always appreciate the insight, FK. Sometimes saying incorrect things out loud and having someone like yourself correct it really helps you learn.
 
Tadashi70 said:
Cam you explain how an open stance shallows out your swing?
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Tadashi70

I would think it has to do with perhaps 2 things, one physical and one mental. The physical aspect flows from the open stance allowing the initiation of the downswing from the lower half of your body and your hips already having a head start rotating or firing towards the target. The arms must naturally follow but their path is altered because they are playing catch up with the lower body. The mental aspect I'm guessing is that your open stance is sensed by your brain and it computes that to swing towards your target and square shoulder line it must re-route the swing from outside to neutral or even inside. Hence the swing is swallowed.

I have had my swing filmed from down the line recently and my path is now either neutral or slightly from the inside. So for me it has definitely shallowed my swing and made it more flowing and easy to replicate.

I would add add that if you have no trouble ball striking and getting the proper trajectory from your clubs, experimenting with the open stance philosophy is not appropriate.
 
sickyspider said:
Tadashi70

I would think it has to do with perhaps 2 things, one physical and one mental. The physical aspect flows from the open stance allowing the initiation of the downswing from the lower half of your body and your hips already having a head start rotating or firing towards the target. The arms must naturally follow but their path is altered because they are playing catch up with the lower body. The mental aspect I'm guessing is that your open stance is sensed by your brain and it computes that to swing towards your target and square shoulder line it must re-route the swing from outside to neutral or even inside. Hence the swing is swallowed.

I have had my swing filmed from down the line recently and my path is now either neutral or slightly from the inside. So for me it has definitely shallowed my swing and made it more flowing and easy to replicate.

I would add add that if you have no trouble ball striking and getting the proper trajectory from your clubs, experimenting with the open stance philosophy is not appropriate.
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Are these your thoughts or did someone share them with you?
 
Tadashi70 said:
Are these your thoughts or did someone share them with you?
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Well these are not my original thoughts they have been shared with me but they make sense to me and my filmed swing backs them up. I'm a firm believer in the mind's power over the golf swing. Visualising the target line and what type of shot you intend to play will in some way affect how the body moves to try to achieve it.

Perhaps another factor at play here is rear eye dominance. I am right handed and right eye dominant and I putt, chip and pitch best open stance because I can see the line and commit to it. Extending that to the full swing with a few set up alterations was a natural progression for me which is the best decision I ever made in playing golf! :)
 
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