Question for those who work at golf retailers

First off I apologize if this isn't the correct place for this thread.

I was at Golftown today trying out the SLDR and the Bertha. I hit about 10 shots with each, I hit the SLDR 430 with the TP shaft the best. I had the highest swing speed and felt like I was making the best contact. I couldn't make solid contact with the 460 and the BB was hit and miss. After I hit everything I looked back at the numbers and after over 30 shots, every single hit registered a 1.45 smash factor. I hit a few off the toe a couple off the heel and pure some as well but every shot registered as a 1.45.

My question is, do big box retailers generally set a generic smash factor and the sims just read swing speed, launch angle and face angle and just setting its own ball speed? Is it to get the average golfer who isn't going pure as many shots excited by higher numbers?

In my fitting I averaged a 1.48 smash factor with my current set up, so I feel like I wasn't seeing the true results. I clearly hit the TP the best but I don't know how much better, All I know is that my SS was up by about 4-5 mph, the launch angles were better and the ball flight was more consistent. I have no way of knowing which club I was making the best contact with aside from feel.

it is certainly possible. If they don't have a simulator that can actually measure spin and/or differentiate between club head speed and ball speed then they will have to fudge some numbers. I never trust the big box store simulators.

Most big box simulators will measure ball speed. That's my understanding at least.

If it's a foresight the way I understand it the actual measurements are ball speed, launch angle and total spin +/- 50rpm the rest is all calculated

I've noticed GT showing my swing speed up to 10 mph off.

If your simulator was a GC2 launch monitor with its proprietary software/simulator package, then "smash factor" or efficiency rating is a preset input which is typically left at 1.45 for woods. Often they will adjust it down to 1.38 or so for irons, but it can be changed at will. The simulator uses this preset number in combination with measured ball speed to calculate clubhead speed, which most indoor monitors do not measure. Doppler radar systems measure both CH speed and Ball speed and divide the two to calculate smash factor. If you fixate on your clubhead speed number instead of ball speed (as many do) then just be aware that your output number with these photo systems will be BS. Also be aware that true smash factors of 1.45 or greater are Pro caliber and rare.

I agree the doppler will give you a proper CH speed and smash factor.

Also be aware that it is possible for an unscrupulous Big Box salesperson to fake your numbers especially if you only look at Swing Speed and don't focus on the rest. If he presets the machine to Driver A (old driver) at 1.45 and Driver B (new driver) to 1.48, then you will think that Driver B will be more efficient and be tempted to buy it. In reality nothing is different between the two, just the preset inputs. Ignore CH speed and only look at Ball speed on those systems. And also pay attention to the balls you're using in the test. Always bring a reliable control club that you know how far it goes and use it to test the system. I use my seven iron. If the system produces substantially different results with the control club, walk away. The numbers will be garbage and tell you nothing.

Moral: Never buy without real course or range testing.

mark blanchard said:

Also be aware that it is possible for an unscrupulous Big Box salesperson to fake your numbers especially if you only look at Swing Speed and don't focus on the rest. If he presets the machine to Driver A (old driver) at 1.45 and Driver B (new driver) to 1.48, then you will think that Driver B will be more efficient and be tempted to buy it. In reality nothing is different between the two, just the preset inputs. Ignore CH speed and only look at Ball speed on those systems. And also pay attention to the balls you're using in the test. Always bring a reliable control club that you know how far it goes and use it to test the system. I use my seven iron. If the system produces substantially different results with the control club, walk away. The numbers will be garbage and tell you nothing.

Moral: Never buy without real course or range testing.

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Nice post, Mark. This post should be stickied!

katman said:

Nice post, Mark. This post should be stickied!

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Just for the record, I'm not against monitor testing. I find Doppler radar systems very useful when you are outside and use real flight visual verification as a check to what the read-outs tell you. With indoor systems, you have no way to check what the read out tells you besides your gut feeling that something isn't right. I find all indoor photographic systems to be much less useful and more prone to spin reading and data extrapolation "errors" of the type discussed above. However, in fairness I must disclaim that many THP honchos disagree with me strongly on this point.

mark blanchard said:

Just for the record, I'm not against monitor testing. I find Doppler radar systems very useful when you are outside and use real flight visual verification as a check to what the read-outs tell you. With indoor systems, you have no way to check what the read out tells you besides your gut feeling that something isn't right. I find all indoor photographic systems to be much less useful and more prone to spin reading and data extrapolation "errors" of the type discussed above. However, in fairness I must disclaim that many THP honchos disagree with me strongly on this point.

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That is not correct. What I have disagreed with is your repeated assessment that the GC2 launch monitor is alterable. Which it is not...as a launch monitor. When used as a simulator the simulator is. I travel everywhere with the GC2 and it is used at every THP Event. There is no settings menu to alter whatsoever. It is also used outdoors. In fact you said the last time you brought this up, that you have never used it as launch monitor, just tried it once or twice when it was hooked up to a simulator. Personally, I find it hard to evaluate something's accuracy without trying it, but everybody is different I suppose.

Never seen these errors when compared with any other system that you speak of, but I am sure every system has malfunctions. Heck at the Kings of Distance event in Orlando, the doppler system was off for the 1st 5 swings and had to be rebooted.

JB said:

That is not correct. What I have disagreed with is your repeated assessment that the GC2 launch monitor is alterable. Which it is not...as a launch monitor. When used as a simulator the simulator is. I travel everywhere with the GC2 and it is used at every THP Event. There is no settings menu to alter whatsoever. It is also used outdoors. In fact you said the last time you brought this up, that you have never used it as launch monitor, just tried it once or twice when it was hooked up to a simulator. Personally, I find it hard to evaluate something's accuracy without trying it, but everybody is different I suppose.

Never seen these errors when compared with any other system that you speak of, but I am sure every system has malfunctions. Heck at the Kings of Distance event in Orlando, the doppler system was off for the 1st 5 swings and had to be rebooted.

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It is true that I have never seen a GC2 used without the computer simulator attached to it. I've now seen/used three different GC2's in three different locations, one used in an outdoor bay at a range, but all three were connected to the simulation software on a laptop. Sadly, since I don't own one, I have no way of scrutinizing what data they produce or how it is displayed without the laptop screen readouts. It is my perception that most stores or pros who use them as sales or fitting tools do not use them as raw monitors, but use them connected to the software package on a PC in order to visually display the data to their customers. And in those cases, it is very easy to manually alter the "smash factor" or efficiency settings (as well as elevation and roll out) to produce different output numbers. This guy noticed that his smash factor was fixed at 1.45, just like I did. I assumed it was a GC2 but it could have been an older worse system just as easily.

In fairness, the only real reading error I have perceived with regularity on the GC2 monitor is a tendency to under-read spin every so often. Because it can use any ball in any orientation (and not striped balls set up just so, like older systems) it seems to misread spin like 1 in 20 shots. That's not much, and it's pretty remarkable that they get it right 19 out of 20 considering the difficulty of the measurement, but it caused me keep my eyes open. If you catch it on the readout, you just throw out the low spin number shots. Sadly they are usually your "best" drives.

The GC2 is arguably easier to set up the first time, especially on flat surfaces indoors, and it doesn't take as much targeting calibration set up as the doppler systems do. But when the Dopplers are targeted incorrectly they just fail to read anything or give clearly garbage output, and you keep working until they are properly set up. They don't slip in those "off" spin numbers once they are set up.

Perhaps my biggest beef with the GC2 is the one you don't see when you use it as a pure monitor. That's the Clubhead Speed number. Since it doesn't read clubhead speed, it doesn't give you this number without using a calculation and a preset. Sadly CH speed is what most guys seem to fixate on in a fitting with the sim. If they are fixating on this number and they haven't seen the set up and are using a tech they don't know, and they have no visual frame of reference on real ball flight because they are indoors -- I question the value of the whole ordeal.

The GC2 does NOT read club head speed at all.
Again, that is software calculating it, and has nothing to do with the monitor.
I have shown pictures of the monitor readouts in response to this on multiple occasions. The GC2 monitor is not doing any of the calculations you are referring to, again that is merely software calculations that are set up by the place you are using it.

The GC2 does not offer that, that is a separate package in line to turn the launch monitor into a simulator. A golf simulator and golf launch monitor are two very different things.

I think you might be better off, trying one of these at either a THP Event if you choose to make one, or someplace locally (just ask them to disconnect the simulator software before evaluating the effectiveness. I think it might surprise you.

Every OEM we have been to, every shaft company we have been to, and every tour van we have been to has them in use due to their reliablity, portability and ease of use.

Well, at the very least, this thread has piqued my interest in the monitor technology. I've never really paid a great deal of attention to the input...just the output. Based on this knowledgeable - if somewhat contentious - discussion, I plan to rectify that ignorance in the near future!

katman said:

Well, at the very least, this thread has piqued my interest in the monitor technology. I've never really paid a great deal of attention to the input...just the output. Based on this knowledgeable - if somewhat contentious - discussion, I plan to rectify that ignorance in the near future!

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Come on over to the THP Event in WI and you can jump on the monitor, out on the driving range and watch the readouts and the ball flights.

I know a simulator hooked up to GC2 estimates swing speed, probably based on ball speed / the set smash factor. How accurate do you think it is?

GolfFest said:

I know a simulator hooked up to GC2 estimates swing speed, probably based on ball speed / the set smash factor. How accurate do you think it is?

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Estimations are just that. Estimations. Some better than others, but frankly I have only hooked mine up a few times, and prefer to use an actual launch monitor for fitting.

Anytime I hit on a simulator in a store I have a club head speed of 85mph and carry the ball 190 yards.

Greg Kulbick said:

Anytime I hit on a simulator in a store I have a club head speed of 85mph and carry the ball 190 yards.

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This is my experience as well, that is on the simulators though

Launch Monitors regardless of make (i.e. the sensor unit) and the simulation software displaying results are indeed two very different pieces of equipment, no argument there, even if they are made and sold by the same company as companion pieces. The trouble is -- to the lay-golfer walking into a pro shop they are almost always connected to each other and thus are perceived as one unit. The faults of one will thus tend to get connected to the whole package especially among laymen.

There's no doubt that the GC2 is spreading fast since it's half the price of competing systems, its ease of set up and its ability to be used indoors and out. Everyone will see this system soon if they haven't already.

There is one other "tendency" that I've spotted on the GC2. I don't know enough about the system to state that it's a reading error or a software averaging tendency, so right now I just find it curious. But I've noticed that if I hit a cluster of shots, say 20 or 30, I'll frequently find a few "pairs"" that have exactly the same spin. Sometimes this will happen on two consecutive shots. I'll get two read outs of say 2276. Not 2274 and 2278, but two twins of exactly the same odd number. I'm not a good enough golfer to produce identical spins to two consecutive shots, so my suspicion hairs were raised. I have no explanation yet, just saying I noticed it.