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Putting on Different Types of Grass

drp3434

drp3434

I'm either golfing or wishing I was golfing
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This can be used to give tips for putting on any type of surface, but my main search for help is in regards to #TheKing. All of us in the event have undoubtedly began our prep work, or starting soon, to get ready for April. The greens that we'll be playing on are one of the biggest question marks for me and my game. I've never played on Bermuda before, so I have no idea what to expect. I know it's been mentioned about reading the grain (something I've never done); whether you're putting with or against the grain. I've also heard things before about how the sun position can effect the grain.

Any tips on what to look for when we get there, on how to read/play on these greens? Any ideas on how to possibly prep for these when they are not in the area you live in? Perhaps there are some sites online with good amounts of info that we can research. Any advice is welcome, as I've always just looked at distance and break to determine how I putt; I've never taken type of grass into consideration.
 
I'm in the process of going from a club that had bent grass greens to one that has dwarf bermuda. I will share what differences and knowledge gained to my King partners and opponents what I am seeing. I'm hoping cpljohnst will come down to join me for a round or two before April. I'm thinking his home course may be bent so he would also be able to spout some facts on the bermuda greens.
 
I think it's less important than it gets made out to be. One difference I tend to see is that wedge shots will bite more on a bermuda surface, whether that's grass or the ground material I'm not sure. You'll have grain to contend with down south, but that's no big deal. I tend to think a really sloped, fast bent grass green is the toughest to putt on.
 
Hawk said:
I think it's less important than it gets made out to be. One difference I tend to see is that wedge shots will bite more on a bermuda surface, whether that's grass or the ground material I'm not sure. You'll have grain to contend with down south, but that's no big deal. I tend to think a really sloped, fast bent grass green is the toughest to putt on.
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It has been my experience that shots into bermuda greens don't hold as well as bent grass. Generally the grain grows toward the setting Sun, there are exceptions to the grain.
 
Most courses in my area are bermuda. I have to disagree slightly with Hawk. I think it does play a noticeable factor in putting. I didn't pay much attention to it up until this past year. When I started taking the time to look at it, it really helped my distance control more than anything. If you have an uphill putt against the grain, you can't hit it hard enough. Take some time putting with and against and get a feel for how much more or less goes into a putt based on that. Everyone's feel is different. I tell myself in my preshot to add or subtract an extra 10% distance wise and it helps me tremendously.

I will agree with Hawk about another thing he said. Fast bent grass greens are 1000 times harder to putt on than bermuda. Not even close between the two. So if you can putt well on bent grass, bermuda will be pretty easy after you adjust to it.
 
I don't think it's anything that you really have to do a lot of prep for before hand. Just things you'll need to be aware of. You'll pick up on things quickly by rolling on the practice greens. Here are the things I think about Bermuda:

1. Bermuda overall tends to break less than what the putt looks like.
2. Identify any grain by how the grass looks: shiny equals downgrain, dull equals into grain.
3. Downgrain putts will roll faster and roll out more than you think.
4. Downgrain putts will tend to break more than an into grain putt.
5. When in doubt roll and read the putt like you would on any green.

Growing up here in Atlanta back when every course had Bermuda it's what I learned to play on. In the early 80's there was a shift to Bent here. Now many courses are going back to Bermuda. The newer strains have far less grain than what I grew up with. My home club has bent on both courses but we have a sister club 10 miles away with Bermuda.
 
Hawk said:
I think it's less important than it gets made out to be. One difference I tend to see is that wedge shots will bite more on a bermuda surface, whether that's grass or the ground material I'm not sure. You'll have grain to contend with down south, but that's no big deal. I tend to think a really sloped, fast bent grass green is the toughest to putt on.
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Disagree on your assessment of grain.

On the Florida courses that I've played, grain really comes into play, especially if you're putting into or with the grain. Speed is really affected, in my opinion.

Typically, I'll just look at the grain and factor that into the read.

If I ignore the grain, it tends to be a really bad putting day.
 
Thanks for the quick replies!
cpljohnst said:
I don't think it's anything that you really have to do a lot of prep for before hand. Just things you'll need to be aware of. You'll pick up on things quickly by rolling on the practice greens. Here are the things I think about Bermuda:

1. Bermuda overall tends to break less than what the putt looks like.
2. Identify any grain by how the grass looks: shiny equals downgrain, dull equals into grain.
3. Downgrain putts will roll faster and roll out more than you think.
4. Downgrain putts will tend to break more than an into grain putt.
5. When in doubt roll and read the putt like you would on any green.

Growing up here in Atlanta back when every course had Bermuda it's what I learned to play on. In the early 80's there was a shift to Bent here. Now many courses are going back to Bermuda. The newer strains have far less grain than what I grew up with. My home club has bent on both courses but we have a sister club 10 miles away with Bermuda.
Click to expand...

These are some good tips, thanks. Perhaps I'm over thinking it a little, though it seems like there are some varying thoughts on how big of a roll it plays. Just want to make sure I'm totally aware of what I'm/we're in for when we get down there...
 
The course where I gained most of my golf experience had bermuda & it definitely effected the roll of the ball on a couple, but not all of the greens. If you have a scenario where there's a combination of a setting sun & a low point around the green where water runs to, it will effect speed a lot and the break some too.

Both of the holes that were effected most were almost impossible to hold without some release unless the greens were very soft. Vice versa, putts against the grain would only go about 3/4 of the way you expected them to.

The easiest way to read the grain is to look down in the hole. On one side, the grass will be cut cleanly. That's the direction the grain is coming from. The rougher edge is the direction the grain is going.
 
ATLGolfer said:
Disagree on your assessment of grain.

On the Florida courses that I've played, grain really comes into play, especially if you're putting into or with the grain. Speed is really affected, in my opinion.

Typically, I'll just look at the grain and factor that into the read.

If I ignore the grain, it tends to be a really bad putting day.
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Yea, I get that part. Speed is affected and you need to pay attention to it. I'm just saying it's not that big a deal and I've never gone to another state and had issues putting.
 
This is something I've always heard about, but never really understood. Thanks for the info. I need to do more research.
 
I putt better on Bermuda. No idea why
 
I think the reason many are posting about Bermuda not holding approach shots has to do with the fact that Bermuda doesn't require as much water as Bent so generally Bermuda greens are a good bit firmer than bent.
 
I know the bent grass greens KellyBo and I had to putt on at our last course were fast and contoured which could make for a :banghead:day on the golf course. The new course on the agenda has the dwarf bermuda greens that I have played a couple times since moving here. I remember the two speeds mentioned concerning which way the grain goes. Going with the grain, the dwarf greens were as fast as the bent imo.
 
majBC said:
It has been my experience that shots into bermuda greens don't hold as well as bent grass. Generally the grain grows toward the setting Sun, there are exceptions to the grain.
Click to expand...
The grain of bermuda greens lays flat becuase the grass grows like a blanket unlike bent that actually grows up out of the ground. Contrary to rumors, the grain will not follow the sun.

Hawk said:
I think it's less important than it gets made out to be. One difference I tend to see is that wedge shots will bite more on a bermuda surface, whether that's grass or the ground material I'm not sure. You'll have grain to contend with down south, but that's no big deal. I tend to think a really sloped, fast bent grass green is the toughest to putt on.
Click to expand...
Hawk you are the exception to the rule. I have seen more people have issues on Bermuda greens then I have on Bent. Reading the break, grain and speed is needed to make putts on Bermuda. The greens at ChampionsGate have very subtle breaks and the grain plays a big roll on the release of the ball through these breaks

drp3434 said:
This can be used to give tips for putting on any type of surface, but my main search for help is in regards to #TheKing. All of us in the event have undoubtedly began our prep work, or starting soon, to get ready for April. The greens that we'll be playing on are one of the biggest question marks for me and my game. I've never played on Bermuda before, so I have no idea what to expect. I know it's been mentioned about reading the grain (something I've never done); whether you're putting with or against the grain. I've also heard things before about how the sun position can effect the grain.

Any tips on what to look for when we get there, on how to read/play on these greens? Any ideas on how to possibly prep for these when they are not in the area you live in? Perhaps there are some sites online with good amounts of info that we can research. Any advice is welcome, as I've always just looked at distance and break to determine how I putt; I've never taken type of grass into consideration.
Click to expand...
My best advise is look for the burnt edge of the cup, it will show the way the grain grows. The greain grows into the burnt side of the cup. Down grain putts will be fatser than into grain putts. Side grain putts will take more break as they lose speed. If you die the ball into the hole you want to borrow more break. If you are agressive then you can cut the break.
 
Sir Swingsalot said:
Most courses in my area are bermuda. I have to disagree slightly with Hawk. I think it does play a noticeable factor in putting. I didn't pay much attention to it up until this past year. When I started taking the time to look at it, it really helped my distance control more than anything. If you have an uphill putt against the grain, you can't hit it hard enough. Take some time putting with and against and get a feel for how much more or less goes into a putt based on that. Everyone's feel is different. I tell myself in my preshot to add or subtract an extra 10% distance wise and it helps me tremendously.

I will agree with Hawk about another thing he said. Fast bent grass greens are 1000 times harder to putt on than bermuda. Not even close between the two. So if you can putt well on bent grass, bermuda will be pretty easy after you adjust to it.
Click to expand...

This puts me at ease a bit. I roll on lightning quick bent grass July - Sep and typically do quite well on it. Anything downhill makes you soil your trousers but the overall consistency is very nice.
 
cpljohnst said:
I think the reason many are posting about Bermuda not holding approach shots has to do with the fact that Bermuda doesn't require as much water as Bent so generally Bermuda greens are a good bit firmer than bent.
Click to expand...


I also suspect part of the trend in the hybrid Bermuda grass is that it is generally firmer and able to withstand more play. I've noticed that most of the hybrid Bermuda greens I play tend to be pretty firm, especially in this area.
 
Tadashi70 said:
The grain of bermuda greens lays flat becuase the grass grows like a blanket unlike bent that actually grows up out of the ground. Contrary to rumors, the grain will not follow the sun.

Hawk you are the exception to the rule. I have seen more people have issues on Bermuda greens then I have on Bent. Reading the break, grain and speed is needed to make putts on Bermuda. The greens at ChampionsGate have very subtle breaks and the grain plays a big roll on the release of the ball through these breaks

My best advise is look for the burnt edge of the cup, it will show the way the grain grows. The greain grows into the burnt side of the cup. Down grain putts will be fatser than into grain putts. Side grain putts will take more break as they lose speed. If you die the ball into the hole you want to borrow more break. If you are agressive then you can cut the break.
Click to expand...

Good info here, thank you. Interesting on the sun. Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by burnt? Like, actually burnt, from the heat of the sun? Side where grass looks shortest on the edge? Shakey mentioned one side of the cup will be cut clean; the side the grain is coming from. One side will be cut more rough; the side the grain is going too. Is this what you mean?

Glad you mentioned side grain putts, I was thinking about how I've never seen that mentioned. I would assume speed is somewhere in the middle of with the grain and against the grain? And, the break may be a little different if it's breaking into the grain or breaking with the grain?
 
ATLGolfer said:
I also suspect part of the trend in the hybrid Bermuda grass is that it is generally firmer and able to withstand more play. I've noticed that most of the hybrid Bermuda greens I play tend to be pretty firm, especially in this area.
Click to expand...

Plus the fact it tolerates heat better than bent :thumb:
 
Great idea for a thread, Danny, I know ArmyGolf and I were discussing this very issue on Saturday. I'm used to bent grass, but I played a few courses in Utah that had pretty significant grains on the greens - I believe they were rye, but I could be wrong. Anyways, I remember locals always told me that the grain always grew towards the valley/the lake, so not sure if that is a rule that may help in Florida or if it is completely different there, but I know that tip really helped me once I got it through my thick skull. Some great tips in here already, this will be a thread I will keep a close eye on.
 
drp3434 said:
Good info here, thank you. Interesting on the sun. Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by burnt? Like, actually burnt, from the heat of the sun? Side where grass looks shortest on the edge? Shakey mentioned one side of the cup will be cut clean; the side the grain is coming from. One side will be cut more rough; the side the grain is going too. Is this what you mean?

Glad you mentioned side grain putts, I was thinking about how I've never seen that mentioned. I would assume speed is somewhere in the middle of with the grain and against the grain? And, the break may be a little different if it's breaking into the grain or breaking with the grain?
Click to expand...

golfcup_zps484eebf6.png


Another way of finding out about the grain is by looking at the hole. As we see in the picture we notice that one side of the edge of the hole is a clear cut while the other side of cup has no defined line and has collapsed into the hole. This view can give us a verse good clue how the grass is growing around the cup. Down grain is where the hole has a sharp edge and into the grain it is when front of the hole has given in. The reason for it being that the roots offset the top of the grass as it is not growing straight up but in one direction.
 
FWIW I agree with Barry and I prefer putting on the only course around here that has Bermuda greens. I find it to have a truer roll and they are usually faster with less break and that suits me better.

Your results may vary.
 
Hawk said:
I think it's less important than it gets made out to be. One difference I tend to see is that wedge shots will bite more on a bermuda surface, whether that's grass or the ground material I'm not sure. You'll have grain to contend with down south, but that's no big deal. I tend to think a really sloped, fast bent grass green is the toughest to putt on.
Click to expand...
I haven't traveled a ton and played in a ton of different conditions, but after a few practice putts and maybe a hole or two I haven't really noticed any huge adjustments I've needed to make.
 
Grain does have an effect, but more often than not people tend to think too much about it. Yes, you need to be aware when you're putting into the grain vs down grain as the putts will be slower and faster. However, don't expect the putt to be significantly faster (ie a green stimped at 9 will not be suddenly a 12 because you're downgrain) because of it. If the putt does take off on you, don't always think it was because you were down grain. Was it because you just hammered it? Was it because you didn't see you were putting down a slope that gradually increased? If you expected it to roll out a foot or two past the hole and it goes to 4 feet as it just kept trickling as it ran out of speed, that was probably the grain's effect.

More often than not I'll see people worry so much about the grain of the grass that they just don't make a good stroke.
 
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