Ethics in the Golf Industry

i can certainly understand golf is a luxury. There are too many people who dont play much as they want, dont play much at all, or even dont play period due to costs. Its like if you go the beach with the fam during the week and pay 5bucks to park and 4pp to get on the beach. Then on the weekend you pay 12 to park and 10pp to get on the beach. An amusement pak may be $30 weekday and $55 weekend. Perhaps skiing might cost $49 weekday yet $75 weekend. Etc, etc.... These are all luxuries and we dont have to do any of them.

These places (businesses) are taking advantage of the very fact that you want something but can only do it on the weekend. One doesnt have to go at all/any of these things and that is true. But it is also true because of this some dont go much at all while others dont go period. This is more than just good busines practice imo. There is greed involved here too. There is (by default) a misguided accpetable means that is nothing more than simply taking advantage of the fact that the masses can only do these things on a weekend most of the time. Even though its not a luxury your are still being price gouged (unethical imo). The average "joe' is being taken advantage of. If he wants a good time he must pay extra because he can only do it on the weekend. It may be a luxury he doesnt have to do but this accepted logic is still unethical imo.

How is it the places' fault that you can only do that activity on the weekend?
 
I'm sorry but the people equating higher greens fees on weekends to unethical behavior are just flat wrong. Every Saturday and Sunday, the tee sheet fills up at my local course which tells me that more than enough people are willing to pay that amount. Would it be nice if greens fees were cheaper on the weekend? Sure, but the job of a business isn't to hand things out because it makes certain people feel better about their decision to participate.

This conversation is about ethics, not whether or not certain people and/or businesses are generous.

This does have to do with ethics. Weather we talk golf manufacturers or a golf course fees. Businesses dealing with people is about ethics as much as anything else imo..
 
How is it the places' fault that you can only do that activity on the weekend?

its not thier fault at all. But it is thier fault (thier decsion) to up your price because they know you are limited to the weekend.
 
i can certainly understand golf is a luxury. There are too many people who dont play much as they want, dont play much at all, or even dont play period due to costs. Its like if you go the beach with the fam during the week and pay 5bucks to park and 4pp to get on the beach. Then on the weekend you pay 12 to park and 10pp to get on the beach. An amusement pak may be $30 weekday and $55 weekend. Perhaps skiing might cost $49 weekday yet $75 weekend. Etc, etc.... These are all luxuries and we dont have to do any of them.

These places (businesses) are taking advantage of the very fact that you want something but can only do it on the weekend. One doesnt have to go at all/any of these things and that is true. But it is also true because of this some dont go much at all while others dont go period. This is more than just good busines practice imo. There is greed involved here too. There is (by default) a misguided accpetable means that is nothing more than simply taking advantage of the fact that the masses can only do these things on a weekend most of the time. Even though its not a luxury your are still being price gouged (unethical imo). The average "joe' is being taken advantage of. If he wants a good time he must pay extra because he can only do it on the weekend. It may be a luxury he doesnt have to do but this accepted logic is still unethical imo.

But I think you are missing a step.
Do they charge more because they can on the weekends? Sure do.
But more maintenance is needed on the weekends as well. More employees as well.
Generally more costs overall on the business side.

So you charge more to make up for those costs. its not about taking advantage its about surviving. More overhead has to be passed down to someone to keep a business afloat. Should they eat all the additional costs that they endure on the weekends?
 
But you are trying to make the argument that it is unethical to price based on fluctuations in demand. Are there cases when it is true that it is unethical? Yes, but not for a good that can be substituted, such as golf. It is unethical when you have absolutely no choice. For instance, when Sandy hit it was unethical (truly price gouging) to price gas at $20/gallon in the NY/NJ/CT area. Is it unethical to charge $10-20/round of golf when EVERY weekend there is a higher demand for the product of playing golf? Absolutely not.
 
I don't think they are looking at pricing from the standpoint of "rollin only golfs on the weekend, so let's stick it to him." Probably more along the lines of 'this is our busiest time and we can command a higher price. Let's make up some of the money that we are bleeding during the week."

You realize that a lot of courses, especially muni's are operating on tiny margins right?
 
its not thier fault at all. But it is thier fault (thier decsion) to up your price because they know you are limited to the weekend.

But the issue is not that YOU are limited to the weekend. It is that THEY are limited on the weekend. Only so many tee times to go around, so you should price to maximize your return. Golf courses are not cheap to run. Tons of overhead.
 
its not their fault at all. But it is their fault (their decsion) to up your price because they know you are limited to the weekend.

What golf course knows you're limited to only the weekend? And again, why is it the course's fault that you are only able to play on the weekend?

To flip it around, I think it is unethical for you to expect a golf course to cater to your schedule.
 
To flip it around, I think it is unethical for you to expect a golf course to cater to your schedule.

Now I think we are getting carried away with the use of the word "ethical". The correct word is probably "selfish" unfortunately.
 
I think it is unethical for you to expect a golf course to cater to your schedule.


This statement is ridiculous on about 100 levels.
 
its not thier fault at all. But it is thier fault (thier decsion) to up your price because they know you are limited to the weekend.

Would you also say that it's unethical that an 8:55 tee time might cost more than one at 9:10?
 
So you charge more to make up for those costs. its not about taking advantage its about surviving. More overhead has to be passed down to someone to keep a business afloat. Should they eat all the additional costs that they endure on the weekends?

Do you also not make more in terms of equipment sales, range, food and beverage on the weekends? Why not charge $5 for hot dogs on Fri, Sat, Sun and only charge $2 on the weekdays?

I realize it's silly, but the point it it is not purely recouping overhead that leads to the higher rates on weekends.
 
I don't think they are looking at pricing from the standpoint of "rollin only golfs on the weekend, so let's stick it to him." Probably more along the lines of 'this is our busiest time and we can command a higher price. Let's make up some of the money that we are bleeding during the week."

You realize that a lot of courses, especially muni's are operating on tiny margins right?

This is 100% true. From high school through college I worked at 3 different golf courses. Each one of those courses I worked at would pretty much lose money during the week due to very little play and still having to keep staff around in case people would come to play. The weekend price increase, special events, leagues, etc. are all done so that the course can survive.

What many people do not think about is that the majority of courses don't fluctuate their prices according to the economy throughout the year. So when gas prices sky-rocket the course eats those costs, it doesn't get passed down to the customers. I think if people were able to actually see the budgets these golf courses were forced to operate on, they wouldn't believe it.

I'm still kinda baffled that someone would claim that raising the prices on the weekend is morally wrong or unethical. Nobody is forcing you to play on the weekend, you can play during the week all you want. Just because you aren't able to do that, doesn't mean it's anybody else's problem.

*edit* I know you weren't talking about the prices being raised Hawk, I just kinda combined my comments with my response to your post.
 
This statement is ridiculous on about 100 levels.

The choice of "unethical" probably is. But I don't believe that any golf course needs to change their business practices in order to accommodate my busy schedule.
 
Do you also not make more in terms of equipment sales, range, food and beverage on the weekends? Why not charge $5 for hot dogs on Fri, Sat, Sun and only charge $2 on the weekdays?

I realize it's silly, but the point it it is not purely recouping overhead that leads to the higher rates on weekends.

The extremes are not the same when relating fixed costs.
Adding 12 more employees on during busier times changes that fixed costs as it is in direct relation to consumer relations and maintenance, couple that with less traffic the last 3 days previous.
They pass that fixed cost down to the consumer.

Since you would like to have price fluctuations based on profit, would you be willing to spend twice as much on the days like Monday-Wednesday when the course is losing money?
 
But I think you are missing a step.
Do they charge more because they can on the weekends? Sure do.
But more maintenance is needed on the weekends as well. More employees as well.
Generally more costs overall on the business side.

So you charge more to make up for those costs. its not about taking advantage its about surviving. More overhead has to be passed down to someone to keep a business afloat. Should they eat all the additional costs that they endure on the weekends?

Blu mentioned similar earlier and i'll comment the same. That with so many more golfers on the weekend they are already bringing in so many more greens fees. that in itslef should be a wash and probably even work in thier favor to cover a couple/few employees without even raising the greens fees imo.


I don't think they are looking at pricing from the standpoint of "rollin only golfs on the weekend, so let's stick it to him." Probably more along the lines of 'this is our busiest time and we can command a higher price. Let's make up some of the money that we are bleeding during the week."

You realize that a lot of courses, especially muni's are operating on tiny margins right?

Tis may indeed be a factor at some places. Many also do very well so its a crap shoot when discussing this as to just how a specific course may be living. Some businesses do have no choice but to do this in order to live. But there are very many (too many imo) who do it out of greed too. This gemeralization would of course not apply to every golf course or business.
 
Take a look at your local course's budgets and finanical reports sometime. Should be available online.
 
Blu mentioned similar earlier and i'll comment the same. That with so many more golfers on the weekend they are already bringing in so many more greens fees. that in itslef should be a wash and probably even work in thier favor to cover a couple/few employees without even raising the greens fees imo.

The added golfers may cover all of the added costs. But it may not. That is an assumption. Without knowing the books of a golf course, I can't say for certain. Regardless, the tee times on the weekend are in higher demand.
 
rollin': Maybe you should look at it this way. Golf courses have standard greens fees and LOWER them during the week to attract more people. Now when I look at it that way, don't they seem awfully generous to you?

Seems like this is all about perception, and the reality is that golf course operate on such slim margins anyway. We should be happy that anyone wants to choose such a crappy business to support our hobby.
 
Blu mentioned similar earlier and i'll comment the same. That with so many more golfers on the weekend they are already bringing in so many more greens fees. that in itslef should be a wash and probably even work in thier favor to cover a couple/few employees without even raising the greens fees imo.

So you would honestly feel better, if the course just raised all the rates for the entire week to the weekend rate so it did not appear as though you were getting ripped off paying more on the weekend? Seems like a rather rough business model to me personally.
 
I'm really wondering if people forget that golf course are generally businesses owned by the members or group of individuals. Yes, there are a couple owned by the Government bodies, but generally not the case. The expenses are endless. In recent years many courses weren't even braking even, let alone "benefiting" from the raised weekend green fees.
 
Blu mentioned similar earlier and i'll comment the same. That with so many more golfers on the weekend they are already bringing in so many more greens fees. that in itslef should be a wash and probably even work in thier favor to cover a couple/few employees without even raising the greens fees imo.




Tis may indeed be a factor at some places. Many also do very well so its a crap shoot when discussing this as to just how a specific course may be living. Some businesses do have no choice but to do this in order to live. But there are very many (too many imo) who do it out of greed too. This gemeralization would of course not apply to every golf course or business.

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and assume that you have never worked at a golf course, nor have you looked into a golf courses financials. Those increases in costs can be pretty substantial amounts, and it's not the golf courses objective to "break even".

It's all a choice for you, therefore I don't see how it is unethical or morally wrong.
 
The extremes are not the same when relating fixed costs.
Adding 12 more employees on during busier times changes that fixed costs as it is in direct relation to consumer relations and maintenance, couple that with less traffic the last 3 days previous.
They pass that fixed cost down to the consumer.

Since you would like to have price fluctuations based on profit, would you be willing to spend twice as much on the days like Monday-Wednesday when the course is losing money?

You assume the course is losing money on Monday thru Wednesday.
You assume there is no fixed component to food and beverage costs.
You assume that the course adds significantly more staff on weekends than on weekdays.

I can't make a reasonable response based on so many assumptions.
 
You might be right now that I think of it. Probably more expense per golfer on the weekdays because of the reduced head count. Am I thinking of it that way.

I notice that in Orlando a lot of courses just have one rate that applies 7 days a week.

I do think it is funny that "Friday" is a weekend price at a lot of golf courses.

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Some math for people that operate like me:

My home course costs ~$1.5m to run. Given 7 day a week operation, 12 hours to send groups out, 6 groups per hour and 4 people per group, each week that is 2,016 rounds. Golf courses around me can at best operate 10 months out of the year. That means 20,160 rounds of golf per year. So they need to generate ~$74/round just to break even. That is also assuming the sell out every month, every day, every time, and every group. Unlikely. They will be most likely to sell out all times on the weekend, and less likely on the weekday. That is why they need higher prices when they can capitalize on the demand and lower on the weekend when they need some sort of draw. I just don't understand how this can be considered a question of ethics rather than a question of sustainable business practices for a seasonal activity.
 
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