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How many strokes is too many?

Trout Bum

Trout Bum

Regional Rival
Albatross 2024 Club
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I was thinking about a match recently where our opponent got a ton of strokes and happened to play pretty well sending my partner and I into a spiral of defeat. How many strokes is too many to give an opponent? Every time I've ever given an opponent 10 or more strokes I've lost the match, What's fair to you?
 
I would expect the handicaps would be fair unless the other guy is a sandbagger.
 
Trout Bum said:
I was thinking about a match recently where our opponent got a ton of strokes and happened to play pretty well sending my partner and I into a spiral of defeat. How many strokes is too many to give an opponent? Every time I've ever given an opponent 10 or more strokes I've lost the match, What's fair to you?
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I don't mind giving shots, but i am not a fan of giving shots on the par 3's. A lot of times if there are shots given we always have a caveat that we can adjust either way after 9
 
Trout Bum said:
I was thinking about a match recently where our opponent got a ton of strokes and happened to play pretty well sending my partner and I into a spiral of defeat. How many strokes is too many to give an opponent? Every time I've ever given an opponent 10 or more strokes I've lost the match, What's fair to you?
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I want my 14.
 
I gave my friend who rarely plays a shot a hole once. Wow, did that mentally get to me. I played no where close to my normal game. I was easily 18 strokes better on paper, but that wore me out. Was a challenge for sure
 
I have trouble giving more than 9 strokes. More than that and I feel like I have to play catch up all day.
 
I would say give shots only on the hardest par four holes and skip the par 3 & par 5 holes.
 
I gave 9 last time out when playing teams. Won't give that many again. Getting whipped by the pencil is no fun.
 
I'd say no more than 8. I know a certain Captain Hawk had some readjusting of his strategy to limit some guys and how many strokes they gave up, and I think the largest was 8. The first thing you hope for is that it isn't a sandbagged handicap. But since you can't control that, all you can do is focus on your game and play how you normally would.
 
tpluff said:
I'd say no more than 8. I know a certain Captain Hawk had some readjusting of his strategy to limit some guys and how many strokes they gave up, and I think the largest was 8. The first thing you hope for is that it isn't a sandbagged handicap. But since you can't control that, all you can do is focus on your game and play how you normally would.
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Yea I didn't really expect it to be so difficult to overcome, but it's a tough one to deal with. It was sort of out of our control on the first day anyway with the way we announced that one, but it bit us pretty hard.
 
In theory it shouldn't matter if both are true to their index and both are playing well in the match. If the better player isn't playing well I am sure it feels like you got shafted. But I would wager if you played the same match 10x you would prevail on the better side of it.
 
I think it becomes as much a mental issue as it does anything. Losing a hole with a par a few times just sort of beats you down mentally.
 
I think the trouble here is that a lot of high handicappers are inherently very volatile in their scoring hole to hole, i.e. they have a larger number of halfway decent holes and then a few (more or less, depending on how high the cap is) really bad blow ups. What makes this tricky in matchplay execution is that their high handicaps are calculated based on stroke play, where every stroke hurts them equally, and you're playing matchplay, where that 9 or 10 only results in a loss of hole instead of 4 or 5 extra strokes over you. I know this intimately from playing high handicappers in an after work matchplay league in SLC where we would shoot within 1 or 2 strokes of each other on the net score, but I'd get creamed on the matchplay points.
 
Once you hit double digits it gets really tough....as Hawk mentioned, you lose a hole or 2 with pars and it really gets to you mentally.
 
Ole Gray said:
I would say give shots only on the hardest par four holes and skip the par 3 & par 5 holes.
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At my handicap, for stroke equity I can post no more then a 7 on any given hole. However, that 7 doesn't matter if it is a par 3 or a par 5. Frankly, that just makes no sense to me. I would think at my level, it would be more equitible to limit it to a bogey or at most a double on any given hole.
 
I don't remember the exact number but I had to give this dude 8-9 strokes plus a teebox one time. He destroyed me. If I'm having to make birdies to win then I'm in big trouble.
 
Try to play with guys in your HC range or BETTER.

I hate giving strokes, but I do give tons of TIES to guys that are higher caps.

I play with tour card PGA pros that are way on the PLUS side of a HC if they had one which they don't, and they don't like giving me more than 3 a side.

It's better to be on the receiving end of a stroke than the one giving IMO.

So play guys in your range, or guys near it and offer a TIE, you loose only if they TIE you, so every hole you do beat them on, YOU WIN.

TIES not strokes is what I offer, if they need full strokes, they should be playing with people closer to their HC index IMO.
 
Giving a TON of strokes can get into your head, and when a guy getting 15 strokes goes out and has a personal best round on TOP of that, you can't help but feel cheated. Been there, done that! I've also seen the other side of the coin too, where I gave a guy 15 stokes and beat him in match play 6 and 5, so....like others have said...as long as he's not a sandbagger, then it SHOULD be a fair match.
 
As many as the USGA says they/I get. You said it yourself Trout, the guy you played had a good round. I bet that "good" round is an exception that just happened when you played him.

Happens all the time in golf. It's the only way I can explain YE Yang beating Tiger at the PGA.
 
I used to go down to Devon yearly with 20 of my mates for a weeks golf. We used to play a 3 club challenge on the par 3 course on the final morning. Stupidly, handicaps were in play. Giving your playing partners 2 shots on a 100 yard hole with only a 7iron, sand wedge and putter in your hands ain't much fun :(
 
The higher a players index, the wider their scoring range (usually). For example I'm a 7hcp and 75% of my rounds fall between 76 and 83 which is only a 8 stroke range. My usual playing partner is a 12hcp and 75% of his rounds fall between 80 and 92 which is a much wider range of 13 strokes. A 15 hcp might have an average range of 15 strokes, a 20hcp would have a range upwards of 20 strokes, etc. The higher the handicap, the more likely it is for that player to go low. Hypothetically, match up a 5hcp against an 18hcp on an average par 72 course. The 5hcp is giving the 18hcp 13 strokes. The 5hcp would need to shoot 77 to NET even par. The 18hcp can shoot 90 to NET even par. The chances of the 5hcp shooting 77 or below are much lower than the 18 hcp shooting 90 or below. I think the handicap system is nearly flawless and it very accurately shows the skill of a player, but it can benefit the higher handicap in certain formats.

I played in a couple golf trips in Pinehurst with 8 guys ranging from 6 to 28 handicaps. It was 5 rounds with the lowest net score taking the prize. Both years I had bad first rounds (net 7 or 8 over). I would've had to shoot 74-75 in my last 4 rounds to even have a chance so I was basically out of the tournament the first day. The 20+ hcp guys who won both years had 4 mediocre rounds and 1 good round. My point is that it only takes 1 bad round for a low handicapper to shoot his way out of a tournament, where as it only takes 1 good round for a high handicapper to shoot there way into the lead.

I keep the handicaps for myself and a couple friends so when we play together we put in $20 and use our index to put up a net score. I had a round a couple years ago where I was a 6hcp and my buddy was a 13. I shot one of my best rounds of the year, a 2 over par 74, and still lost money. I was a little ticked off at the system, wondering how I could shoot such a good round and still lose. But my buddy's round of 79 was by far his best round of the year so I didn't feel so bad.

I think the system works but the lower handicap players have to work a little harder.
 
Trout Bum said:
I was thinking about a match recently where our opponent got a ton of strokes and happened to play pretty well sending my partner and I into a spiral of defeat. How many strokes is too many to give an opponent? Every time I've ever given an opponent 10 or more strokes I've lost the match, What's fair to you?
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Look at the indexes involved....it was fair

and who on our team played "good"?

And isnt this the purpose of having an index when doing these kind of matches?

DOWN GOES TROUT AND WARDY
 
As long as your index is accurate, whatever that dictates is fair.

Keep in mind that the 0.96 multiplier in the handicap index formula hurts higher handicapped players more than lower ones as an incentive to improve.
 
It really depends on the player. I would have to give my dad about 15 strokes, but I think I would still beat him pretty regularly. At the Grandaddy, I was "handicapped" by a ZooCrew member who was playing well and really gutted me on the strokes given. I don't think he was sandbagging, just playing well that day.

Comparatively, the next day I had to give a different ZooCrew member eight strokes, and I won 7&5.

With amateur golfers, there's typically such a variance in playing ability that a handicap is hard to pinpoint. Any golfer on any given day can play much lower than his/her handicap. It doesn't mean they're sandbagging. Just having a good day.
 
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