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Rules question: The whiff

NewGlfr said:
I just read this in the USGA rule book. If you address the ball and take a full swing, it is considered a stroke. If you do a check swing, it is not a stroke. The next stroke must be played as it lies. If the ball is still on the tee, it must be played as such.
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Are you sure? I could have sworn they changed the rule in the last few years and took intent out off the tee so a whiff is nothing. Could be wrong though.


Seems like I am probably wrong after reading the rest of thread. I guess you could say say you meant to miss and game the system.
 
I say play it as it lies.
 
play it as it lies so if still on the tee then play it from there. if the ball came off the tee then two options. play next shot from where ball landed or take penalty stroke such as an unplayable and re-tee.
 
Fourputt said:
To the OP:

The ball is played as it lies. The stroke counts - he would be hitting 2 off the tee. If he moved the ball off the tee, then he would incur a penalty stroke and must replace it - now hitting 3 off the tee. If he doesn't replace the ball on the tee, he incurs a total of 2 penalty strokes (read it as either one more stroke for not replacing, or 2 total for playing from a wrong place) - he'd be lying 4 wherever the ball ended up.





Since he pulled back deliberately, there was no intent to strike the ball, therefore there was no stroke. That is how it was ruled.
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Wouldn't the player be playing his third even if he removed the ball from the tee and played it from within the teeing ground but not on the tee (peg). Player always has the option to take a stroke and distance penalty, and for a shot played from the teeing ground, the player can play his third from anywhere within the teeing ground, and you are not compelled to tee the ball up in the teeing ground. Since he plays from the teeing ground, the penalty for moving the ball at rest and playing from the wrong spot don't apply. (Decision 18-2/1)
 
I'm no rules expert. Wadesworld needs to chime in. But I am under the impression it is play it as it lies from the tee.
 
captaincaution said:
Wouldn't the player be playing his third even if he removed the ball from the tee and played it from within the teeing ground but not on the tee (peg). Player always has the option to take a stroke and distance penalty, and for a shot played from the teeing ground, the player can play his third from anywhere within the teeing ground, and you are not compelled to tee the ball up in the teeing ground. Since he plays from the teeing ground, the penalty for moving the ball at rest and playing from the wrong spot don't apply. (Decision 18-2/1)
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Correct. You do have the option of playing under stroke and distance at any time. So, you are welcome to take the ball off the tee and place it anywhere in the teeing ground, or re-tee it anywhere within the teeing ground. However, by doing so, you are costing yourself the stroke and distance penalty.

Bullfrog said:
I'm no rules expert. Wadesworld needs to chime in. But I am under the impression it is play it as it lies from the tee.
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Sorry I missed this one.

Rick (Fourputt) is also a rules official and has been doing it longer than me, so you certainly can believe what he says.

If you play it as it lies, you save yourself a penalty stroke. That is, untouched, you'd be hitting 2 off the tee. If you take it off the tee or re-tee it, you'll be playing under stroke and distance and will be hitting 3. Same thing applies in terms of picking it up. If you knock it off the tee after making a stroke, you can play it as it lies and be hitting 2, or you can re-tee it under stroke and distance and be hitting 3.
 
Bullfrog said:
I'm no rules expert. Wadesworld needs to chime in. But I am under the impression it is play it as it lies from the tee.
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Believe me, I've had as much rules experience as Wade has (see my post above). This is a pretty simple scenario.

captaincaution said:
Wouldn't the player be playing his third even if he removed the ball from the tee and played it from within the teeing ground but not on the tee (peg). Player always has the option to take a stroke and distance penalty, and for a shot played from the teeing ground, the player can play his third from anywhere within the teeing ground, and you are not compelled to tee the ball up in the teeing ground. Since he plays from the teeing ground, the penalty for moving the ball at rest and playing from the wrong spot don't apply. (Decision 18-2/1)
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Show me a time when anyone would do that after a whiff, then we'll discuss it. I didn't bring it up, both because it doesn't answer the OP's question and it's about as unlikely as seeing an elephant at the north pole.

However, he isn't playing under stroke and distance unless he declares it so. In the scenario put forth by the OP, there is no intent to take stroke and distance. The question was whether he could still play from the tee, and the answer is not only that yes he could, but to be correct, he MUST play the ball on the tee without moving it. If he even touches it with his hand he has incurred a penalty stroke. If he lifts it and replaces it, it is one penalty stroke. If he lifts it and doesn't replace it, then it's 2 penalty strokes. (by the way, this is true for touching or moving your ball in play at any time, unless the act is covered by a rule which allows it)

It's never stroke and distance unless he says it is (or it is the result of an act he has taken under a rule, whether or not the act was correct), and in that case the original ball is deemed lost, which makes absolutely no sense at all since it's still sitting on the tee in front of him.
 
Fourputt said:
Believe me, I've had as much rules experience as Wade has (see my post above). This is a pretty simple scenario.
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You've had more. :)

Fourputt said:
It's never stroke and distance unless he says it is, and in that case the original ball is deemed lost, which makes absolutely no sense at all since it's still sitting on the tee in front of him.
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Rules fight..."aka discussion."

Rick, I'd disagree that it has to be declared, based on this:

[h=2]18-2a/1[/h] [h=4]Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making Next Stroke[/h]Q.A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely. He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the ruling?

A.When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition of "Ball in Play"). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply.
 
wadesworld said:
You've had more. :)



Rules fight..."aka discussion."

Rick, I'd disagree that it has to be declared, based on this:

18-2a/1

Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making Next Stroke

Q.A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely. He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the ruling?

A.When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition of "Ball in Play"). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply.
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Hmmm, good catch. That's a decision I've never seen before. The result is that he's still playing his 3rd stroke, so scoring is the same as if he was going under Rule 20-7. I'm not sure why they would bother to make that distinction. It just adds to the potential confusion when the question comes up on a rules quiz, but there is no practical difference.
 
Smallville said:
Not a stroke (it's not in play yet) and re-tee it. If you do it once your tee shot is over, I believe you have to replace it and take a penalty stroke.

Also, if your waggle hits the ball off the tee, it's not a stroke.
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Just saw this, thanks for clearing it up.
 
Play it as it lies, still on the tee now hitting 2
 
Tadashi70 said:
My dad just called and asked if you whiff with your driver on the tee. And that ball remains on the tee, can you play it as is. Or does it need to come off the tee?
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It can stay on the tee, but if he intended to hit it the first time, he is hitting 2 off the tee.
 
Currently - your whiff unless a designated practice stroke is a stroke. You play the next stroke with the ball on the tee. You may not alter the position of the ball without incurring a stroke and distance penalty.

Beginning January 1, 2016 - if you are playing by yourself, you can adjust the ball height without penalty, play the shot off the turf, do pretty much whatever you want since your round does not count.
 
Lesson learned from this?

Hope I never whiff with a ball on the tee as this is way too confusing to figure out all the options.

Yet again....golf needs to be made more simple....and here we are going the wrong way.
 
#Cookie said:
Lesson learned from this?

Hope I never whiff with a ball on the tee as this is way too confusing to figure out all the options.

Yet again....golf needs to be made more simple....and here we are going the wrong way.
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Not that complicated in my eyes. If you intend to hit the ball and don't, it's a stroke. Play it where it was. Easy peasy.
 
Freddie, I'd let you keep it on the tee if that happened to you cause I'm a nice guy.
 
Nate said:
Freddie, I'd let you keep it on the tee if that happened to you cause I'm a nice guy.
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That is mighty fine of you Nate
 
captaincaution said:
Wouldn't the player be playing his third even if he removed the ball from the tee and played it from within the teeing ground but not on the tee (peg). Player always has the option to take a stroke and distance penalty, and for a shot played from the teeing ground, the player can play his third from anywhere within the teeing ground, and you are not compelled to tee the ball up in the teeing ground. Since he plays from the teeing ground, the penalty for moving the ball at rest and playing from the wrong spot don't apply. (Decision 18-2/1)
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Why wouldn't the player play from off of the tee?
 
blugold said:
Why wouldn't the player play from off of the tee?
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Because he thought he wasn't allowed to? That's the only reason I can think of
 
#Cookie said:
Lesson learned from this?

Hope I never whiff with a ball on the tee as this is way too confusing to figure out all the options.

Yet again....golf needs to be made more simple....and here we are going the wrong way.
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How is it complicated? There are no options. Just like any other time when the ball is in play, you play it as it lies. The key point is that the ball is in play and must be treated like any ball in play. The fact that it still lies on the tee doesn't change that.

As soon as you make a swing with the intent to hit the ball (this is the definition of a stroke), the ball is in play. It remains in play until it's holed unless it is lifted or substituted for when following a rule. Even when you hit into the middle of a lake, that ball is still your ball in play until you drop a ball to replace it.
 
Fourputt said:
How is it complicated? There are no options. Just like any other time when the ball is in play, you play it as it lies. The key point is that the ball is in play and must be treated like any ball in play. The fact that it still lies on the tee doesn't change that.

As soon as you make a swing with the intent to hit the ball (this is the definition of a stroke), the ball is in play. It remains in play until it's holed unless it is lifted or substituted for when following a rule. Even when you hit into the middle of a lake, that ball is still your ball in play until you drop a ball to replace it.
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How is it complicated?

Read through the beginning of this thread and people unsure what to do.

And then someone quoting a rule and even you saying "I hadn't thought about that".

We wouldn't have numerous pages of discussion if it was as simple and clear cut as you're implying.
 
InTheRough said:
Currently - your whiff unless a designated practice stroke is a stroke. You play the next stroke with the ball on the tee. You may not alter the position of the ball without incurring a stroke and distance penalty.

Beginning January 1, 2016 - if you are playing by yourself, you can adjust the ball height without penalty, play the shot off the turf, do pretty much whatever you want since your round does not count.
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So because we can no longer post scores when playing alone (Thank you USGA!!!) all the rules are out the window? Great, now maybe I can finally shoot in the low 60's..............
:beat-up:
 
HoosierGolfer said:
So because we can no longer post scores when playing alone (Thank you USGA!!!) all the rules are out the window? Great, now maybe I can finally shoot in the low 60's..............
:beat-up:
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Unless playing a hdcp round or a tourney there is nor requirement to play by the rules. For some golfers out there even hdcp rounds don't have to be played by the rules.
 
#Cookie said:
How is it complicated?

Read through the beginning of this thread and people unsure what to do.

And then someone quoting a rule and even you saying "I hadn't thought about that".

We wouldn't have numerous pages of discussion if it was as simple and clear cut as you're implying.
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My point was that there is nothing complicated about what to do when the ball is in play. All you have to know is that once you make a stroke intending to hit the ball, it is in play. You treat it no differently than you would if it was in the fairway. I don't think that a ruling gets much simpler than that - it's Golf 101. Anyone who plays the game even semi-seriously should know what a ball in play is and what can and cannot be done with it.

On that decision that I was wrong on, we had diverged from the original question. As with most rules situations, it only gets complicated after you screw up and fail to follow a procedure by the rules. Knowing the basic on course procedures keeps most players from ever being involved in those more complex situations.
 
emart2173 said:
Unless playing a hdcp round or a tourney there is nor requirement to play by the rules. For some golfers out there even hdcp rounds don't have to be played by the rules.
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Now that is news to me. If there are no rules, then it is not golf.........
 
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