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Swing thought question specific to the driver/woods

tequila4kapp said:
Your experience with driver was me to a T until last year.

Move the ball forward in your stance a little bit. This gives your hands a little more time to square the face at impact.

This puts the ball a little bit forward of normal good set up, but results in straight drives for me. Maybe it will work for you too. (It proved to be a much simpler and much more repeatable fix for me fiddling with the grip or swing)


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I toyed with this briefly last night, but where I tee up with the problems I have now, I'm already at close to the 0 point in the swing arc. Moving it forward is going to put the ball on a place of the arc where the club begins moving out-to-in and has the potential to add more right spin.

Just for clarification - even an in-to-out swing, with the swing being an arc, begins in-to-out, reaches the 0 point, and becomes out-to-in. Unless of course you stop the club and just hold it out to the right, but there wouldn't be much power in a swing like that.
 
I'm not familiar with that term so I don't really have anything to add.

Best of luck finding your answer.

EDIT: I do want to add something else. CRW, when I read your post you remind me of the guy I see in the mirror every day. My prior instructor sounds very similar to your current guy. A very good teacher, very numbers and angles and Trackman based approach. We made great progress together. But I reached a plateau and couldn't get past it with him (among them was the driver, BTW). Take it with a grain of salt if you'd like but my experience is this - for reasons outside my control I had to stop working with him. I took a break from lessons. When I came back I ended up with a guy who's approach is 180 degrees different (FWIW, one of the first things he told me was to quit thinking so much and just play the game). My game has gone to a new level with him and I honestly believe it is going to new levels this coming year. Perhaps take a pause to reconsider Hawk & JB's advice about trying a new person. Maybe it is a total coincidence but having the technical guy lay the foundation then moving to a different type of teacher really worked well for me. Again, maybe it would work for you. Okay, this time I mean it - that's all...again, best of luck finding your answers.


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This is a great thread as the "big stick" is such a challenge both mentally and physically!

I think tequila4kapp's suggestion to move the ball up is significant as the thread is entitled "Swing thought question specific to the driver/woods" and there is this difference between the driver/woods and irons (i.e. generally you want to arrive at impact with the driver just on the upswing, whereas with irons you want to arrive at impact just before the bottom of the swing arc).

I like to have a slight forward shaft lean on my fairway woods and more forward lean on irons; some like to sweep their fairway woods (just to muddy up the waters on the fairway wood component to the thread...).

But for the driver, I do like to feel that my shaft is vertical just at impact. So for me at least, this is the primary difference or "swing thought" when hitting my driver as opposed to my irons.
 
A lot of others have hit on it and I will echo that maybe you are too caught up in the numbers and technical aspects and not freeing up your swing. Golf is hard enough without the technical aspects clouding your mind. Golf should be fun & not getting off the tee box consistently can put a damper on your round. As you say you can hit your irons well so why not just tee off with irons or maybe some hybrids & work on the driver/FW on the range. I just think this will make the frustration level less, free up your mind & score better.

In terms of the "swing" issue I'm no guru & far from it. I will only suggest that if what you have been doing to date isn't working or hasn't yielded the results you want, maybe another "fresh set of eyes" is what you need. I get that it's up to you to fix the issues that have been identified, but maybe communicated differently can help. IMO there is no better place than THP with Freddie Kong. He has a gift for simplifying the swing and helping those who are struggling. The best part it's free and done purely out of his love for the game and see THPers get better.

Regarding your swing, my only advice is maybe shorten your swing. I struggled with my driver and fought a left to right ball flight as well. The best advice I got was to narrow my stance and think "3/4" swing. This immediately I saw my fade/slice lessen and with time it was fixed. Over time I increased my flexibility and gained distance without having to feel like I was "going after it" with my driver. Just something to think about.

I will also say that maybe look to equipment that is more forgiving. I'm not bashing the SLDR at all as others have had success with it, but as much as you think your swing is off, who knows what another driver might fix. I am not saying that a driver will cure the slice you mention, but great technology with other OEM's is there & has helped a ton of guys here. (me included)

Good luck with your journey and hope you get it figured out.
 
-CRW- said:
I toyed with this briefly last night, but where I tee up with the problems I have now, I'm already at close to the 0 point in the swing arc. Moving it forward is going to put the ball on a place of the arc where the club begins moving out-to-in and has the potential to add more right spin.

Just for clarification - even an in-to-out swing, with the swing being an arc, begins in-to-out, reaches the 0 point, and becomes out-to-in. Unless of course you stop the club and just hold it out to the right, but there wouldn't be much power in a swing like that.
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I have suffered with the same problem for the past few years now and while my "trackman" numbers have been really good as well with the driver I would still have a push fade. My instructor noticed that my ball position was too far forward in my stance and had me move it back to start 2 balls forward of center and then depending on the ball flight move it forward more but in small increments (1/4 - 1/2) a ball at a time. I have noticed an improvement in my driving as a result. I'm not saying this will work for you but I wouldn't be quick to discard the ball position idea that tequila4kapp suggested.
 
mikeg_74 said:
A lot of others have hit on it and I will echo that maybe you are too caught up in the numbers and technical aspects and not freeing up your swing. Golf is hard enough without the technical aspects clouding your mind. Golf should be fun & not getting off the tee box consistently can put a damper on your round. As you say you can hit your irons well so why not just tee off with irons or maybe some hybrids & work on the driver/FW on the range. I just think this will make the frustration level less, free up your mind & score better.

I don't think about the numbers/technical aspects when playing. I just swing. I worry about the numbers when training or attempting to diagnose my problems. I'm here looking for swing thoughts that might help solve the known problem. I might do this, but I'm hard headed and want to get it right. While it's frustrating, I know where my big scores come from and don't let them keep me from playing or have fun. I'm on the course or range 4-6 days a week when weather permits (it hasn't permitted much the past month :/ ).

In terms of the "swing" issue I'm no guru & far from it. I will only suggest that if what you have been doing to date isn't working or hasn't yielded the results you want, maybe another "fresh set of eyes" is what you need. I get that it's up to you to fix the issues that have been identified, but maybe communicated differently can help. IMO there is no better place than THP with Freddie Kong. He has a gift for simplifying the swing and helping those who are struggling. The best part it's free and done purely out of his love for the game and see THPers get better.

I will get a copy of my swing. I sent a text message to my coach this morning so he knows to keep the video for me, but he needs me to bring a flash drive because he said it's too big of files to email. I want as many eyes as possible so that everyone is clear on my problem. That way if someone else has gone through correcting the same piece of the puzzle, they may have some insight on a swing thought or weighting change that could help me.

Regarding your swing, my only advice is maybe shorten your swing. I struggled with my driver and fought a left to right ball flight as well. The best advice I got was to narrow my stance and think "3/4" swing. This immediately I saw my fade/slice lessen and with time it was fixed. Over time I increased my flexibility and gained distance without having to feel like I was "going after it" with my driver. Just something to think about.

I don't feel like I'm going after it all the time, especially when I'm practicing or taking a lesson. By all accounts, the video shows that I'm doing the same swing that works for my irons, but I'm just letting the face hang open for some reason. But maybe swinging smaller swings will help to train my body/mind on where my arm needs to be to have the face closed with the driver/woods.

I will also say that maybe look to equipment that is more forgiving. I'm not bashing the SLDR at all as others have had success with it, but as much as you think your swing is off, who knows what another driver might fix. I am not saying that a driver will cure the slice you mention, but great technology with other OEM's is there & has helped a ton of guys here. (me included)

I don't think my swing is off at all. Of course, I'm not ready to go play on tour (and probably never will be playing at that level), but I hit all the positions in my swing that I need to get to (without thinking about them). I make plenty of errors from time to time, but over all this is a club face control issue. I have a consistency issue, but no more than most amateur golfers and it's something that I will continue to improve on with practice and experience. Occasionally I move me head to much, or don't shift my weight forward enough, or come out of the swing with the driver when trying to kill it, but these aren't every swing events. Everything else about the swing is close to where it needs to be 80% or more of the time. And I get the iron faces where I need them to be during the swing, just not the woods. That's what is so frustrating for me.

Good luck with your journey and hope you get it figured out.
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So just for clarification, this is a diagnosed face control issue. The question is, what do I do or think about to fix it in the split second from the top of the back swing to the point where the shaft is parallel to the ground? Somebody must have a swing thought to share? I did get the flat wrist suggestion earlier in the thread and will spend more time with that. I've tried the bowed wrist or even twisting the lead/left hand down and in (back handing the ball), but this led to timing issues and hooks. I really don't want to stick with that technique and suffer potential two way misses if I don't absolutely have to.
 
-CRW- said:
So just for clarification, this is a diagnosed face control issue. The question is, what do I do or think about to fix it in the split second from the top of the back swing to the point where the shaft is parallel to the ground? Somebody must have a swing thought to share? I did get the flat wrist suggestion earlier in the thread and will spend more time with that. I've tried the bowed wrist or even twisting the lead/left hand down and in (back handing the ball), but this led to timing issues and hooks. I really don't want to stick with that technique and suffer potential two way misses if I don't absolutely have to.
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Sometimes you've got to "feel" your way to a better result. One tip I have given to slicers in scramble tournaments that works almost immediately is this: try to hit the inside of the ball with the toe of the driver.

That image seems to immediately square up the face and help any tendency to come over the top. If they start to protest, I'll tell them to quit doing it once they've hit a sweeping hook that starts to the right...

Similarly, there are a lot of tips and drills in golf that seem so very different, yet accomplish the same thing (preventing a slice is probably the biggest). Everyone learns differently, so some drills really resonate with some people, while others don't.

Generally, I've found that I need to feel I'm over-correcting for a particular fault in order to get the results I'm looking for.

Many have said it, and I agree - feel is a huge part of developing and maintaining a solid swing...

But regardless of how you get there, I wish you success in straightening out your driver and fairway woods!
 
pattyboy21 said:
But regardless of how you get there, I wish you success in straightening out your driver and fairway woods!
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Man if this is not such a great line.
 
one more thought, then i'm out: just go play golf. play a lot of golf. still practice at the range, but there is a lot more to success in golf than making a successful golf swing. please please PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but you're a 31 handicap who has bada## equipment, has been through 4 instructors, and seems to have a very good understanding of the golf swing. unless you're the worst putter in the world, or you have physical limitations that prevent you from making the swing that you know you need to make, my assumption about your handicap is that you just haven't played enough golf to figure out how to get around the course in less than 100 swings. imho, there is no substitution for playing rounds and starting to understand how to play the game, not just how to swing the club.
 
From my perspective when playing, golf is an "empty headed game". When I fill my head with a bunch of thoughts, that's when things go down hill. Personally, I just tell myself, just swing the club and let the ball get in the way.
 
caeleric said:
one more thought, then i'm out: just go play golf. play a lot of golf. still practice at the range, but there is a lot more to success in golf than making a successful golf swing. please please PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but you're a 31 handicap who has bada## equipment, has been through 4 instructors, and seems to have a very good understanding of the golf swing. unless you're the worst putter in the world, or you have physical limitations that prevent you from making the swing that you know you need to make, my assumption about your handicap is that you just haven't played enough golf to figure out how to get around the course in less than 100 swings. imho, there is no substitution for playing rounds and starting to understand how to play the game, not just how to swing the club.
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I definitely don't take it wrong, or get upset by it. I regularly shot in the low 90's at a public course that was wide open, often because I played my second shot from an adjacent fairway or in rough that wasn't really rough and plenty open to hit out of. I'm only a 31 handicap because I average 7-9 penalties off the tee per round, which amounts to 14-18 strokes added to my card. When they had forward fairway greens (due to maintenance on the regular greens) I shot a 79 or 80 there (I can't remember which and deleted the round from golflogix because it didn't count in my mind). I was able to do that because I wasn't penalized by the course with bad driver shots, and wasn't penalized by bad or mediocre short game shots because of the flat greens. To me, that wasn't golf - it was like golf, but not the real game. I could still go back to that course and shoot in the 90's right now, but after playing more difficult courses, that public one doesn't feel like golf. I don't have to play like a tour pro, but I can play the more difficult courses with some success by correcting this driver/wood issue.

I know I still need to play a ton of golf to work on my short game though. I average 36 putts per round, so I could improve there, but it's not killing my score. Same with short game, it doesn't always help me, but isn't killing me either. Those are areas I've put off working a ton on until I get through this driver/wood issue. I still practice them, just no where near like my woods.
 
-CRW- said:
I only partially agree with this line of thinking. This instructor has improved my swing by leaps and bounds. Enough so that if I pulled the woods out of my bag I would be around a 15 handicap. The rest of the 15 handicap is on me and how much time/effort I put into short game/putting, and a little on time to build consistency with my swing (I'd say 5-10 strokes a round are from less than perfect hits with my irons, but I still typically progress the ball forward with the irons and keep the ball in play on mis-hits).

The coach has clearly identified the problem, now it's up to me to find a thought that keeps the club from opening up at position two in the photo I posted above, or to adjust my equipment so that it stays close to neutral in that position without me thinking about it - which would mean I could swing the same with my irons or woods and get positive results.
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Your coach needs to not only identify the problem, but also identify the fix. He should be able to tell you what you're doing wrong to cause the problem, what the correct behavior is and give you drills to help fix it. If they can't do that, they're the wrong coach.

-CRW- said:
So just for clarification, this is a diagnosed face control issue. The question is, what do I do or think about to fix it in the split second from the top of the back swing to the point where the shaft is parallel to the ground? Somebody must have a swing thought to share? I did get the flat wrist suggestion earlier in the thread and will spend more time with that. I've tried the bowed wrist or even twisting the lead/left hand down and in (back handing the ball), but this led to timing issues and hooks. I really don't want to stick with that technique and suffer potential two way misses if I don't absolutely have to.
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You said the key point: "split second"

There is nothing you can think about in that split second. During a practice swing, you can focus on your hand position, your hips, whatever. But when you step up to hit the ball, your focus should be on one thing: your target. You focus on your target and swing the club. If it doesn't work, you go find it and try again.

It would not surprise me at all if this is a case of chasing the wrong rabbit. That is, something earlier in your swing is causing this behavior. That's the kind of thing a good coach will realize and diagnose. If the face of your club is open, there's a reason. You're doing something in your swing, stance or grip that is making your brain think "If I don't get this club open, I'm going to have no chance to square up the club face." A good coach will figure out what that is and give you drills to correct it so your brain doesn't have to throw the club face open. He will not say, "I've diagnosed the issue, now you figure out a swing thought."
 
wadesworld said:
Your coach needs to not only identify the problem, but also identify the fix. He should be able to tell you what you're doing wrong to cause the problem, what the correct behavior is and give you drills to help fix it. If they can't do that, they're the wrong coach.

...

It would not surprise me at all if this is a case of chasing the wrong rabbit. That is, something earlier in your swing is causing this behavior. That's the kind of thing a good coach will realize and diagnose. If the face of your club is open, there's a reason. You're doing something in your swing, stance or grip that is making your brain think "If I don't get this club open, I'm going to have no chance to square up the club face." A good coach will figure out what that is and give you drills to correct it so your brain doesn't have to throw the club face open. He will not say, "I've diagnosed the issue, now you figure out a swing thought."
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I don't think the first part is very fair. He's not suggesting I find a swing thought on my own, and is actively giving me suggestions.

As to the second part, I'm not throwing the club open. We are talking single digit degrees here that make a big difference. I'd describe it more as the club face is falling open some, and because of of centrifugal force/gravity. And at least the conscious part of my brain isn't thinking "I have to open the club", it's definitely thinking "I have to shut the club". Maybe slowing my swing down some or doing the 3/4 swings as suggested earlier will help build the muscle memory to get it right when swinging faster.

The force someone has to overcome swinging their driver 95 mph is much different than one swinging upwards of 110. So maybe I need to swing at 80% as people say first, and then add speed while building control in the process. I just haven't gone there yet because I swing my 7 iron upwards of 95 mph with out seeing the same problem.
 
I can't keep out of the thread...

I've seen you mention the hard course / easy course 7-9 strokes off the tee issue before. Maybe I'm off base but I perceive that you are a little more interested in making a perfect swing than scoring (aka playing golf). Our job is to post the lowest score we can with the swing we bring to the table that day. You don't like that the ball goes right, but you have a one way miss and that can be a very good thing. So aim down the left side of the FW when driver is required. Hit something that takes hazards 100% out of play. Post your score. That is playing golf. Then go work on your swing at the range.
 
I don't think the first part is very fair. He's not suggesting I find a swing thought on my own, and is actively giving me suggestions.
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In my defense, that's how you presented it.

But the larger point is that he needs to be able to tell you "this is happening because you're doing this." In short, he needs to tell you the cause, not just the effect.

As to the second part, I'm not throwing the club open. We are talking single digit degrees here that make a big difference. I'd describe it more as the club face is falling open some, and because of of centrifugal force/gravity. And at least the conscious part of my brain isn't thinking "I have to open the club", it's definitely thinking "I have to shut the club". Maybe slowing my swing down some or doing the 3/4 swings as suggested earlier will help build the muscle memory to get it right when swinging faster.
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My point was, bad things in golf swings are caused by our brain compensating. I'll give you an example from my own swing:

Historically, I have swung over the top, badly. Why? Because my takeaway was WAY too far inside. I'd get the club stuck behind me, and my brain would think, "if I don't come over the top, I'm going to whiff this ball." So I'd make this huge OTT move in an attempt to reroute the club where I could actually hit the ball. Because of the OTT move, I'd be coming massively out-to-in on the ball, with a square club face. At that point, my brain would think "Whoa....if I keep going left with this club face square, I'm going to pull this ball off the planet." So to compensate, I would hold off my release, and hit weak no-power fades/slices. All of that happened without any conscious thought. I thought I had a pretty decent swing. I suspected I was out to in, and tried like the devil to "swing out to right field," but nothing helped until a coach identified that my OTT was a brain response to my takeaway, not a failure to "swing out."

This is my point. Your subconscious is opening the club because it feels in order to deliver the club properly due to some problem with your grip, stance or swing up to that point, it has to. A good pro will be able to figure out what it is that's causing your brain to make that compensation.
 
UVaWahoo said:
From my perspective when playing, golf is an "empty headed game". When I fill my head with a bunch of thoughts, that's when things go down hill. Personally, I just tell myself, just swing the club and let the ball get in the way.
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I understand that logic too. But to be fair it also works the other way around . Lets face it, one can have a clear head but then when one struggles with a given part (probably including you too) one does then have to eventually begin to think why. If one heads out and starts over fading (or whatever) to the point it becomes detrimental to their golf round/s they will eventually have no choice but to start thinking about why. So things going downhill can often cause the thinking instead of the other way around.
 
tequila4kapp said:
Your experience with driver was me to a T until last year.

Move the ball forward in your stance a little bit. This gives your hands a little more time to square the face at impact.

This puts the ball a little bit forward of normal good set up, but results in straight drives for me. Maybe it will work for you too. (It proved to be a much simpler and much more repeatable fix for me vs. fiddling with the grip or swing)
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This is the first thing I would try if you are hitting your irons at your target and pushing your woods to the right. This is how Ben Hogan shows it in 5 Fundamentals ... As you can see he closes the stance as the clubs get longer to prevent the pull left - what they now call D-Plane.
312478
 
Are you sure the ball is the right distance away? I know for me I used to stand an inconsistent distance from the ball and it caused my body to subconsciously contort to try and square the clubface up. After one swing with my new pro he has me take quarter swings brushing the ground then I put the club on the stripe and walk into the ball and then just let 'er rip. I no longer slice, rarely chunk it, and no longer flip my hands which no pro before could help me get rid when dealing with 'positions'. Just a thought.
 
OK, so I'm no expert, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night. My understanding of a block/push is that your swing path is in to out, but your face angle is square to your swing path, not your target line. A push-fade is only a further exaggeration of that, where your swing path is in to out (the push part) but your face is open to that swing path (the fade part). This is a swing I struggled with for a long time, because the important part happens in that area that's difficult to capture, during the downswing where the club moves through the hitting area. Tension in the hands holds the club-face open rather than allowing it to get square to target is usually the culprit.

So I have a gear-related opinion...go with slightly smaller grips that let you really get the club in your fingers. This can produce a firm-feeling grip with less tension in your hands and forearms. That's just a theory based on some experiences I've had whilst looking for the right sized grip for me.

The drill, which I stole whole-hog from AdamW, is to get out on the range and do quarter swings with an iron, focusing on nothing but turning your hands all the way over through impact. 50 yard duck hooks with a 5 iron are what you're going for. If you stopped at the midway point of your follow-through, the club-face should be pointed at the ground. Learning to exaggerate the release through impact on a small swing will help ingrain the releasing of the hands when you move up to a full swing, especially when you talk about the acceleration of a full driver or wood swing.

This is just one man's opinion, but I did (and sometimes still do) struggle with a good swing path but a bad face angle, and those are two fixes I've found that can help. If they're the opposite of what your coach is telling you, then dump it. But if it is what your coach is telling you, then maybe he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, too.
 
Chris embrace the fade partna!
 
Wakit300 said:
This is the first thing I would try if you are hitting your irons at your target and pushing your woods to the right. This is how Ben Hogan shows it in 5 Fundamentals ... As you can see he closes the stance as the clubs get longer to prevent the pull left - what they now call D-Plane.
312478
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This is almost exactly how I set up with the driver.
 
salisboss said:
Are you sure the ball is the right distance away? I know for me I used to stand an inconsistent distance from the ball and it caused my body to subconsciously contort to try and square the clubface up. After one swing with my new pro he has me take quarter swings brushing the ground then I put the club on the stripe and walk into the ball and then just let 'er rip. I no longer slice, rarely chunk it, and no longer flip my hands which no pro before could help me get rid when dealing with 'positions'. Just a thought.
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I don't think about 'positions' during the swing. It's something we look at after filming a swing. If I'm not hitting a position I work on feeling the position in slow/partial swings, or thing of swing thoughts to get me there. Trying to get in certain positions didn't take long, and hasn't been an issue for some time. It's mostly the fine tuning of the hands/grip to work towards the desired club face position at impact.
 
Paladin said:
...
So I have a gear-related opinion...go with slightly smaller grips that let you really get the club in your fingers. This can produce a firm-feeling grip with less tension in your hands and forearms. That's just a theory based on some experiences I've had whilst looking for the right sized grip for me.

The drill, which I stole whole-hog from AdamW, is to get out on the range and do quarter swings with an iron, focusing on nothing but turning your hands all the way over through impact. 50 yard duck hooks with a 5 iron are what you're going for. If you stopped at the midway point of your follow-through, the club-face should be pointed at the ground. Learning to exaggerate the release through impact on a small swing will help ingrain the releasing of the hands when you move up to a full swing, especially when you talk about the acceleration of a full driver or wood swing.
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I had standard sized grips and really struggled with the driver worse than I am currently. Switching to midsize grips has actually helped to relax my death hold really tightened up my iron shots.

As for the drill, we do work on that from time to time. But I can hook my 3 iron just fine, and then push or push-fade with the driver immediately following the hook drill with a 3 iron. There is something different about the driver/woods for me. I don't know if it's me swinging harder because it's a bigger/longer club, or if it's something else, but it is driving me crazy.
 
what shot shape do you want? Nothing wrong w playing a fade.
 
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