Swing thought question specific to the driver/woods

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I take lessons regularly and get my swing filmed every time. I've really struggled with the driver/woods for a long time, but excel with my irons - including long irons. That being said, I found a lot of success with my woods by taking a very strong grip, especially with the trailing/right hand, but it brings a timing aspect in when trying to get the club face where I need it and brought over nasty hooks to my irons. In my lesson last night my coach and I decided to scratch the grip and go back to a neutral grip. This brought back awesome draws with my irons with the distance I want to see, but also brought back the trouble with my driver.

I say my miss with the driver/woods is a slice, but it really isn't. It's a push-fade, but goes far enough right that it's unplayable (and it's unintentional) so I call it a slice. It starts 20 yards right of target and then fades right (depending on face angle and wind conditions) anywhere from 5-20 yards further right. Occasionally I get a straight push. So we decided to really focus on where the swing was breaking down using video and found something that sort of surprised me. According to my coach, set up is great and my follow through is great (I hit all the positions he wants to see throughout the swing). On the back swing when the shaft is parallel to the ground my club face is usually square to slightly closed. At the top of my swing I get the same picture - you can see the club face/grooves and its close to being in line/parallel with my lead arm. On the down swing the shaft passes through my right/trail bicep area like the coach wants, and when the shaft is parallel to the ground the shaft is inline or just inside of my hands. I am without a doubt hitting in-to-out and within a reasonable number/degree to my target line. From front on my ball position shows that I'm still making contact with the club moving in-to-out - as opposed to being far enough forward that I'm coming back in on my swing arc essentially hitting out-to-in.

So, the break down, confirmed by video, is somewhere between the top of my back swing and getting the shaft back parallel to the ground. When I return the shaft to parallel my club face is open. Despite being square to closed in that same position on the back swing, and at the top of the back swing. My coach said the difference probably has to do with the weight of the club because the weight of an iron club face is closer to inline with the shaft and the weight of the driver extends behind the shaft/body in the downswing and gravity wants to pull it back and down (so if you held the club with the shaft parallel to the ground and the face square and loosed your grip so that the shaft would spin, the clubs weight distribution and gravity would have it twist in your hands backwards, opening the face in the process.

So this knowledge is great and all, but how do I keep the club face square from the top of the back swing to impact. It's really frustrating that it requires no swing thought with the irons to accomplish, but does with the driver/woods. All other aspects of the swing being the same, it still requires a different swing for me to accomplish. I tried thinking about/holding a flat lead/left wrist throughout the entire swing, and had some success with that, but that is different from what I'm doing with my irons to accomplish the same ball flight (and that ball flight is consistent with the irons without thinking about holding a flat left wrist).

Is there some other swing thought I should be thinking? Or should I consider lowering the swing weight of the driver/woods (if possible) to get it more inline with my 3 iron? It's an SLDR, so would maybe moving the adjustable weight more to draw (and closer to the shaft) help with this?

I'm very open to suggestions at this point.
 
we sound like very similar players in our typical ball flight, although the x-flex on your shafts makes it sound like you're a helluvalot stronger than i am!

if you've never read up on the modern ball flight laws, it's really interesting stuff, and tells you a lot about why the ball is doing what it's doing. my miss with my driver and woods used to be a hard hook. now it's a push or a push-fade. seems like night-and-day, right? well, according to the modern ball flight laws, this makes total sense. the laws essentially say this: around 85% of the initial direction and ultimate curvature of the ball while in flight is dictated by the relationship of path to face. the ball will start on the direction of the clubface at impact, and it will curve away from the path. my hook was the result of a path that was open (i'm a righty, so more rightward) to the face. now my push or push-fade is the result of the face being more square or even open to the path. and while i've made great strides in neutralizing my path (10* open to 3* open), the face is an issue.

the reason i mention the modern ball flight laws is i wonder whether you're too focused on the face, and you should be more focused on the path? have you been on a launch monitor? it can really help diagnose path-to-face discrepancies, and can be a great tool to gameplan how to work on your swing.

my instructor had me work on this drill to help with my path. tee up a ball like you're going to hit your driver, and grab an alignment stick or old shaft. get in your driver setup position, and lay the stick or shaft along your foot line, parallel to your target line. grab your driver and get back in the setup position, taking note of where your trailing foot is. now grab another stick or shaft, and stick it in the ground a few inches off where your trailing foot will be. the shaft should be angled away from the ball on a plane that approximates a neutral swing plane. you are basically setting up a "barrier" that does not let you swing too far from the inside. take the club to the top, then "pump" down to where your hands are about in line with your hips, then bring the club back up to the top. if your current tendency is to flatten out the plane on the downswing, you will likely hit the stick because you have dropped the clubhead behind you. repeat the top-pump-top a few times, really feeling like the head is in line with your hands, and then make a 1/2 to 3/4 speed swing and hit the ball. once you have a feel for where the club should be, remove the stick from the ground and repeat the top-pump-top, and swing 75%-100%.

when i first did the drill, it took a little while to feel where the clubhead should be. then when i took the stick out, it was pretty easy to make solid contact when doing the top-pump-top then swing drill, but when i would make a normal swing without any pumps the hooker came back. so it takes time.

then i changed my grip, making it more neutral, and while it was helped get solid contact and better feel, i'm having trouble getting the face closed to the path to produce the power draw i'd like to see. it's always a work in progress!
 
Great thread! I just subscribed to it as I have fought the big stick for years.
 
...the reason i mention the modern ball flight laws is i wonder whether you're too focused on the face, and you should be more focused on the path? have you been on a launch monitor? it can really help diagnose path-to-face discrepancies, and can be a great tool to gameplan how to work on your swing...

I have spent a ton of time on Trackman and the path is fine, sometimes it's a little too in, but not enough to make a significant difference. The goal for me is always 4 degrees out with a face 2 degrees closed to that path (2 open to the target line). I get the 4 degrees in-to-out path pretty regularly but my face is usually 0 degrees to that path or slightly open to it (i.e., the push or push-fade).

The problem lies in a swing thought or swing weight issue (or both), and occurs from the top of the back swing to the point in the down swing where the shaft is parallel to the ground. The face begins to open or fall back with gravity. All other positions in the swing have been checked and are within acceptable variances from the optimal position/goal.
 
I've been a single-digit handicapper my whole life (except for the "dark spell" from 2002-2006 where I didn't break 80 once), and I've also struggled with the driver my whole life (during the dark spell, I was snap-hooking my driver constantly). I would go a couple of rounds hitting flawlessly, and then all of a sudden it would be gone again. For the past couple of years, I've cut my driver to 43-1/2" and it's made a WORLD of difference! I'm hitting over 70% of fairways with little or no loss of distance (in fact, if I play a low hard draw I can hit it further than I ever could at full length).

I would experiment with a shorter driver. With a higher handicap, you should probably notice some big improvements, especially with more contacts in the sweet-spot.

The control, and confidence I get from that control, can not be overstated! It may not work for you, but I would say it is definitely worth a shot.
 
I've been a single-digit handicapper my whole life (except for the "dark spell" from 2002-2006 where I didn't break 80 once), and I've also struggled with the driver my whole life (during the dark spell, I was snap-hooking my driver constantly). I would go a couple of rounds hitting flawlessly, and then all of a sudden it would be gone again. For the past couple of years, I've cut my driver to 43-1/2" and it's made a WORLD of difference! I'm hitting over 70% of fairways with little or no loss of distance (in fact, if I play a low hard draw I can hit it further than I ever could at full length).

I would experiment with a shorter driver. With a higher handicap, you should probably notice some big improvements, especially with more contacts in the sweet-spot.

The control, and confidence I get from that control, can not be overstated! It may not work for you, but I would say it is definitely worth a shot.

If the issue is with the fairway woods too, cutting down the driver to 3 wood length will just make a slightly more forgiving 3 wood. Since the title states its with his metal woods, it does not appear shortening the driver would help.

Although I agree for some it can fix things.
 
And just for some added background information, my clubs were custom ordered from Taylormade based on a fitting from the Taylormade Performance Lab. HOWEVER, I have not had them checked for swing weight, so I have no idea where each club is at.

I know what the numbers are on the website for a factory stock order for TM 2014 TP CB's, but I couldn't tell you if they adjusted my clubs when building them to ensure I have the same swing weight. I ordered KBS Tour X .25" short, .5 degrees flat. My driver was ordered to play at 44.5 inches instead of 46" and with a heavy X-flex shaft, so my swing weight for my driver could be much lower than the stock D4 they list for the TP SLDR (430/460 - I have both heads). But that D4 is based off of a shaft that is roughly 20 grams lighter than mine in the 460, 10 grams lighter in the 430. So my heavier shaft could have lowered the swing weight if they don't account for that when installing the adapter.

I do have access to equipment to check loft/lie/swing weight and my coach and I are going to check all the clubs hopefully Thursday. But the forecast is 30 degrees and possible rain, so the facilities may close that day. Either way, I will have the numbers soon.
 
I have spent a ton of time on Trackman and the path is fine, sometimes it's a little too in, but not enough to make a significant difference. The goal for me is always 4 degrees out with a face 2 degrees closed to that path (2 open to the target line). I get the 4 degrees in-to-out path pretty regularly but my face is usually 0 degrees to that path or slightly open to it (i.e., the push or push-fade).

The problem lies in a swing thought or swing weight issue (or both), and occurs from the top of the back swing to the point in the down swing where the shaft is parallel to the ground. The face begins to open or fall back with gravity. All other positions in the swing have been checked and are within acceptable variances from the optimal position/goal.

you can't hit a push or push-fade with a path that is out-to-in. the only way you can see a flight that seems to be a push would be if you're aligned farther right than the ball is starting, so with an out-to-in path you're pulling the ball relative to your alignment but still open to the target.

swing weight makes sense if the club is getting stuck. lighter shafts are easier to lay off, and heavier shafts tend to stay in front of you. your shafts seem to be pretty heavy, so maybe some lead tape or other swing weight adjustments would be in order.

at the end of the day, you're paying somebody to fix this. if he or she can't fix it, find someone else.
 
If the issue is with the fairway woods too, cutting down the driver to 3 wood length will just make a slightly more forgiving 3 wood. Since the title states its with his metal woods, it does not appear shortening the driver would help.

Although I agree for some it can fix things.

This is true for me. I play the driver at 44.5" and the 3 wood at 42.5" and it doesn't help the face control issue. It seems to be more of a way the club is designed versus what I "think" I should feel. Ultimately, I'd prefer not to have to think different things when hitting a wood or iron. But it may be inevitable.
 
you can't hit a push or push-fade with a path that is out-to-in. the only way you can see a flight that seems to be a push would be if you're aligned farther right than the ball is starting, so with an out-to-in path you're pulling the ball relative to your alignment but still open to the target.

swing weight makes sense if the club is getting stuck. lighter shafts are easier to lay off, and heavier shafts tend to stay in front of you. your shafts seem to be pretty heavy, so maybe some lead tape or other swing weight adjustments would be in order.

at the end of the day, you're paying somebody to fix this. if he or she can't fix it, find someone else.

I don't hit out-to-in. I said out, as in outward, or in-to-out. Sorry for the confusion.
 
first you said this:
I have spent a ton of time on Trackman and the path is fine, sometimes it's a little too in, but not enough to make a significant difference.

then you said this:
The goal for me is always 4 degrees out with a face 2 degrees closed to that path (2 open to the target line). I get the 4 degrees in-to-out path pretty regularly but my face is usually 0 degrees to that path or slightly open to it (i.e., the push or push-fade).

hence the confusion...
 
Have you ever considered a second opinion for lack of better terms?

Your posts are always so fixated on trackman numbers, but based on your posts there are some issues that seem to be really killing hour scores that aren't getting better, even with a rather large investment in equipment.

Maybe a different approach woukd help. Quit trying for perfection and focus more on ball flight and scoring.

Just my thoughts of course. Sometimes abandoning the numbers and angles helps people.
 
Also, the 3 wood is a less pronounced miss, but it is still falling open between the top of the back swing and the shaft parallel to ground position during the down swing to some degree. I presume the miss seems less pronounced because the ball isn't traveling as far.

But in the tree-lined courses I play, hitting the 3 wood of the tee produces a bad enough miss right most of the time that it's unplayable. Ultimately I could play the 3 iron off the tee, and have occasionally, but it's only good for 220 of the tee, maybe 230 occasionally. My 3 wood off the tee is good for 230-250 and my driver 250-280 on a good hit. I just don't get enough good hits with them to be productive. And get enough bad hits to really screw myself in penalty shots. I could play from the shorter tees with the 3 iron to lower my scores/handicap, but in the long run (the sooner the better) I want to play to my full potential.
 
Have you ever thought about setting your woods up with a closed face using the adjustment? Also at the top is your laying off on the way down. That and your wrist flexion (bow vs cup) could bring this into play. Just a stab though.
 
first you said this:


then you said this:


hence the confusion...

I'm talking about coming too much from the inside. It can be checked in position two of this photograph:

logical_golf_6_1.jpg


Specifically, my goal is to have the shaft/club head in line with the hands or just inside to get the desired swing path. Occasionally I'm too inside of my hands, resulting in too much of an in-to-out path for the desired goal, but not often enough for it to be the biggest concern for me right now. It just results in a slightly bigger push or push-fade with the driver/wood. If I was too inside the hands but managed to close the face more at impact I would still get a playable draw.
 
Have you ever considered a second opinion for lack of better terms?

Your posts are always so fixated on trackman numbers, but based on your posts there are some issues that seem to be really killing hour scores that aren't getting better, even with a rather large investment in equipment.

Maybe a different approach woukd help. Quit trying for perfection and focus more on ball flight and scoring.

Just my thoughts of course. Sometimes abandoning the numbers and angles helps people.

I have, and it's ineffective for me. I appreciate the input though. I don't think about numbers on the course or during the swing. I don't think about positions either. I'm looking at them after the swing for an understanding of what I'm doing - and only on the range with the coach.
 
Have you ever thought about setting your woods up with a closed face using the adjustment? Also at the top is your laying off on the way down. That and your wrist flexion (bow vs cup) could bring this into play. Just a stab though.

We didn't have enough time last night to really play with the settings much. I had the 460 10.5 degree head on and bumped the weight one position towards draw. It may have helped, but it was getting dark. I'm going to try fooling around some more with both heads and weights this afternoon. The 430 I have is a 9 degree head, so I can close the face down to 10.5 degrees of loft and do a comparison between 10.5 with a closed face and 10.5 with a neutral face on the 460.
 
Swing thought question specific to the driver/woods

Your experience with driver was me to a T until last year.

Move the ball forward in your stance a little bit. This gives your hands a little more time to square the face at impact.

This puts the ball a little bit forward of normal good set up, but results in straight drives for me. Maybe it will work for you too. (It proved to be a much simpler and much more repeatable fix for me vs. fiddling with the grip or swing)


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I have, and it's ineffective for me. I appreciate the input though. I don't think about numbers on the course or during the swing. I don't think about positions either. I'm looking at them after the swing for an understanding of what I'm doing - and only on the range with the coach.

Have you given it the same chance? I dont mean to echo what Hawk said but its been about a year with lots of lessons (as you put it) and a ton of practice and then a heavy investment in fitted equipment. Yet the scores and issues really have not changed.

Have you seen other instructors and/or given it a chance? Or are you in the its trackman or nothing camp because the brain works that way (nothing wrong with that by the way).
 
I'm no professional but I do have doubts that a club's swing weight could cause that much of a swing miss. Easy enough to check by trying different drivers or changing the weights in your driver to see what happens if anything.

I've had similar issues with the big stick for most of this year. I am finally fixing it with lessons this fall/winter. Like you, I don't have a problem with swing plane (slightly in to out or square at impact is my norm), but I was regularly leaving the face open causing pushes or push fades.

For me it is usually caused by firing my hips too early and too hard and getting stuck with the club "behind" me and forcing me to make contact before I should which doesn't allow the face to square naturally. It's also a power sapper for me which is ironic because this crops up when I'm trying to destroy the ball.

Basically, I've been working on keeping the arms in front of my chest during the down swing (with a side view, during downswing my left arm is in front of my right leg when shaft is parallel to ground when I'm doing it right). A good drill for this feeling is putting a nerf ball or something similar between your arms to keep them connected throughout the swing.

Also, some time ago I was cupping my wrist substantially at the top of my backswing (in my stupid attempt to increase turn and power) and that was making it near impossible to square the face at contact for any of my clubs. I think you said you are square at top of backswing, but check your left wrist to see if it is indeed flat (bowed might be even better for you).

Again, these were issues with my swing that my coach has helped identify and fix and may be completely different than your swing issues but thought I'd throw it out there. Good luck!
 
...at the end of the day, you're paying somebody to fix this. if he or she can't fix it, find someone else...

I only partially agree with this line of thinking. This instructor has improved my swing by leaps and bounds. Enough so that if I pulled the woods out of my bag I would be around a 15 handicap. The rest of the 15 handicap is on me and how much time/effort I put into short game/putting, and a little on time to build consistency with my swing (I'd say 5-10 strokes a round are from less than perfect hits with my irons, but I still typically progress the ball forward with the irons and keep the ball in play on mis-hits).

The coach has clearly identified the problem, now it's up to me to find a thought that keeps the club from opening up at position two in the photo I posted above, or to adjust my equipment so that it stays close to neutral in that position without me thinking about it - which would mean I could swing the same with my irons or woods and get positive results.
 
I only partially agree with this line of thinking. This instructor has improved my swing by leaps and bounds. Enough so that if I pulled the woods out of my bag I would be around a 15 handicap. The rest of the 15 handicap is on me and how much time/effort I put into short game/putting, and a little on time to build consistency with my swing (I'd say 5-10 strokes a round are from less than perfect hits with my irons, but I still typically progress the ball forward with the irons and keep the ball in play on mis-hits).

The coach has clearly identified the problem, now it's up to me to find a thought that keeps the club from opening up at position two in the photo I posted above, or to adjust my equipment so that it stays close to neutral in that position without me thinking about it - which would mean I could swing the same with my irons or woods and get positive results.

i mean this with all sincerity, no bullsh!t: good luck with the swing. i love your passion, and the investments you've made in equipment and instruction. if it's a matter of putting in the time at the range, you'll eventually come around. but if it's an issue with your instructor not able to effectively communicate to you (which is often different than being an ineffective communicator), i wouldn't rule out a switch somewhere down the road.

report back if you get it all fixed!
 
Move the ball forward in your stance a little bit. This gives your hands a little more time to square the face at impact.

This puts the ball a little bit forward of normal good set up, but results in straight drives for me. Maybe it will work for you too. (It proved to be a much simpler and much more repeatable fix for me fiddling with the grip or swing)


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This is a good tip. If I don't warm up pre-round I do this as everything is slow. In fact I tend to move the ball forward and back all the time as my swing goes.
 
Have you given it the same chance? I dont mean to echo what Hawk said but its been about a year with lots of lessons (as you put it) and a ton of practice and then a heavy investment in fitted equipment. Yet the scores and issues really have not changed.

Have you seen other instructors and/or given it a chance? Or are you in the its trackman or nothing camp because the brain works that way (nothing wrong with that by the way).

I have given it a chance, and swing the irons without much thinking at all at this point. The thinking comes in with the driver, but only because not thinking about it results in the push or push-fade. I've tried 4 instructors to date, two of which have been coaching for a long time with a huge following in the Houston area (Brian Smith - former PGA golfer, and now Andrew Pfannkuche - former PGA caddie of 20+ years). So I don't think it's the instruction, I think it's me figuring out how to correct this one piece in an otherwise good swing.
 
I'm no professional but I do have doubts that a club's swing weight could cause that much of a swing miss. Easy enough to check by trying different drivers or changing the weights in your driver to see what happens if anything.

The reason I'm looking at swing weight as a possibility is only because I don't have the problem with a 3 iron. But the 3 iron is 4 inches shorter and has some offset and loft to make it more forgiving than the woods. It's designed differently though - the weight of the 3 iron is mostly in line with the shaft, the weight of woods is somewhat off line of the shaft (and behind the shaft in position 2 in the above picture) which could be why it's opening up for me - and there may be nothing I can do to the equipment to help close it there (i.e., I may have to think about a flat wrist or some other swing thought to keep it there). The longer the club, the more gravity effects the club head's tendency to open (or fall back and down).
 
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