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TaylorMade Press Conference/Announcement

SuperStroke
I kind of like it but just looking at the thread titles it seems lime the PGA is thumbing its nose at the USGA and the rules it legislates on the game.
 
Parshooter36 said:
Maybe I'm missing the point here, but all I'm seeing at this point is a big brainstorming session. What is the harm in gauging the non golfers thoughts as to what might get them to try the game?
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The site is basically a open forum for suggestions; my rant was based on some ideas I've heard floating around from industry leaders and others.
 
Easy golf is what they made Tiger Woods games for on the Xbox.
No matter what you do, people without the time, money, or desire will not start flocking to the golf courses. They will stick with the Xbox or mini golf. I can't even get my buddies to spend 30 minutes at the driving range, and they can all swing a club decently.
 
A lot of people freaking out saying there's no way these ideas will work, but how do you know?

Clearly what we're trying right now is not working, so who's to say that being unconventional won't work? Being conventional is clearly not the answer.
 
Like many I'm all for growing the game of golf. I'm all for making this great game available for everyone because you never know what kid out there this game will save.

Just stay with me here for a minute. I'm a product if the inner city Barrio. Golf was the "rich white guys" game. Early on I had an influence in my life that introduced me to the game and it literally saved me. All of my friends from my childhood are either dead, in jail or wasting away. Why bring this up? Bc I believe golf can do more for out current youth than they realize. If TM & the PGA are worries about the game they need to focus on the kids and juniors. I would suggest instead of making or thinking about making wholesale changes to this great game, figure out how to gets the kids engaged because their buying power is what will sustain this industry when all of is are gone.

Build more 9 hole par 3 courses for the kids. This will allow them to use every club in their bag. Put it next to a driving range practice facility.

They are trying to target more adults, but the "millennials" they covet so much are an instant gratification demographic. The game we love and play is too slow. That's why I said in my earlier post that the invention of Top Golf has these people in mind.

I know I'm rambling, but as a purist I hate it when the rules are targeted or anything related thinking that will solve the problem of people not playing. I say look at what you do well, understand your base and go from there. In my eyes it's the kids & that will grow the game. Who knows it might even get a parent involved and help solidify the family bond.
 
Martsy said:
Exactly why is it so important to bring new players to the game to those that think the game is on its "death bed"? I can see the argument if you're an equipment manufacturer or course owner, but as a player? More people ultimately means more demand which ultimately means higher cost to play. More people means more damage to courses (especially catering to the extremely casual who are enticed by 15" holes...i somehow doubt they'll be as apt to replace divots and repair greens). And more people means slower rounds. So with that being said, for those that in this thread have said "more people is good for golf", I guess from a players standpoint, I'm perplexed as to why that is the case to you, other than it seems like the right thing to say.

So call me a purist or whatever label you choose, but i think any movement to alter the game to attract those who would otherwise be unattracted to the game as it stands today is a detriment to the game we play today. Furthermore, I think any decline in participation lately is primarily motivated by economic conditions, and not the game itself. I don't think people like going on vacation or going out to eat less either, but nevertheless those expenditures are down as well. Should we flatten some mountains in veil to make them less scary to potential skiers, or maybe Nobu should start serving hotdogs? In a time of economic uncertainly and high unemployment, people have less disposable income to spend on luxuries like games. If I'm right, changing the game parameters won't alter that reality.
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You may not see the issues with the decline in the game because your local course is always crowded, but when you look at the number of course closures per year, and that Golf Digest reported a 20% decline in golfers last year, it is an issue. Now in a vacuum, sure, why would we want more golfers? Less golfers means less people on the course. Unfortunately that's not how it works. Less golfers means less revenue for all golf clubs, which results in less maintenance, even less to no improvements and that deterioration leads to even less golfers until the club cannot sustain itself. Less golfers also means less money to the equipment industry, which eventually means higher prices for equipment, or less R&D, etc. People argue that purses have increased, but the number of PGA tournaments was actually in decline for a few years (I'm not sure where it stands now with the wrap around season). Add to that the older golfers starting to disappear from the game each year, and it's a little more apparent golf needs new blood very soon. Things may look great now with the OEMs introducing more and better equipment, crowded courses, etc., but with the game losing so many players each year, I don't see the big deal in TM taking a small and new step in trying to address it.

Many like to point to the economy as the reason golf is in decline, but history shows us that the economy and state of the game are not correlated. People tend to always have some dispensable income and even though it may be limited in the last few years, that means people will spend it much more carefully. Why spend it on a game that's fraught with rules you can't understand and more often than not you will play terribly? Now more than ever it's important to figure out if there's a way to get more people interested in the game, which hopefully translates to some of these people finally getting more serious about it.

I too like the rules and the game the way it is and joined a club to get away from the crowds, but also want to see golf continue to flourish and in order for that to happen, the numbers tell us we need to develop new golfers.
 
mikeg_74 said:
Like many I'm all for growing the game of golf. I'm all for making this great game available for everyone because you never know what kid out there this game will save.

Just stay with me here for a minute. I'm a product if the inner city Barrio. Golf was the "rich white guys" game. Early on I had an influence in my life that introduced me to the game and it literally saved me. All of my friends from my childhood are either dead, in jail or wasting away. Why bring this up? Bc I believe golf can do more for out current youth than they realize. If TM & the PGA are worries about the game they need to focus on the kids and juniors. I would suggest instead of making or thinking about making wholesale changes to this great game, figure out how to gets the kids engaged because their buying power is what will sustain this industry when all of is are gone.

Build more 9 hole par 3 courses for the kids. This will allow them to use every club in their bag. Put it next to a driving range practice facility.

They are trying to target more adults, but the "millennials" they covet so much are an instant gratification demographic. The game we love and play is too slow. That's why I said in my earlier post that the invention of Top Golf has these people in mind.

I know I'm rambling, but as a purist I hate it when the rules are targeted or anything related thinking that will solve the problem of people not playing. I say look at what you do well, understand your base and go from there. In my eyes it's the kids & that will grow the game. Who knows it might even get a parent involved and help solidify the family bond.
Click to expand...


Glad golf saved you. We are glad to have you



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
mikeg_74 said:
Build more 9 hole par 3 courses for the kids. This will allow them to use every club in their bag. Put it next to a driving range practice facility.

In my eyes it's the kids & that will grow the game. Who knows it might even get a parent involved and help solidify the family bond.
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I agree with this a lot.
 
Golf Ghost said:
A lot of people freaking out saying there's no way these ideas will work, but how do you know?

Clearly what we're trying right now is not working, so who's to say that being unconventional won't work? Being conventional is clearly not the answer.
Click to expand...

On the contrary - I have no doubt that some of the suggestions would bring more golfers to the course. Is that what we really want for the game? Of course, I'm looking at it from a purist POV; financially, it may very well be inevitable to save the sport.
 
I guess the good news for me is if they increase the cup size to 15 inches I'll be a scratch golfer, putting has always been my struggle and this will help it a ton ;)
 
Trout Bum said:
I guess the good news for me is if they increase the cup size to 15 inches I'll be a scratch golfer, putting has always been my struggle and this will help it a ton ;)
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Could have used those last weekend, couldnt we?
 
Philly Golf Guy said:
You may not see the issues with the decline in the game because your local course is always crowded, but when you look at the number of course closures per year, and that Golf Digest reported a 20% decline in golfers last year, it is an issue. Now in a vacuum, sure, why would we want more golfers? Less golfers means less people on the course. Unfortunately that's not how it works. Less golfers means less revenue for all golf clubs, which results in less maintenance, even less to no improvements and that deterioration leads to even less golfers until the club cannot sustain itself. Less golfers also means less money to the equipment industry, which eventually means higher prices for equipment, or less R&D, etc. People argue that purses have increased, but the number of PGA tournaments was actually in decline for a few years (I'm not sure where it stands now with the wrap around season). Add to that the older golfers starting to disappear from the game each year, and it's a little more apparent golf needs new blood very soon. Things may look great now with the OEMs introducing more and better equipment, crowded courses, etc., but with the game losing so many players each year, I don't see the big deal in TM taking a small and new step in trying to address it.

Many like to point to the economy as the reason golf is in decline, but history shows us that the economy and state of the game are not correlated. People tend to always have some dispensable income and even though it may be limited in the last few years, that means people will spend it much more carefully. Why spend it on a game that's fraught with rules you can't understand and more often than not you will play terribly? Now more than ever it's important to figure out if there's a way to get more people interested in the game, which hopefully translates to some of these people finally getting more serious about it.

I too like the rules and the game the way it is and joined a club to get away from the crowds, but also want to see golf continue to flourish and in order for that to happen, the numbers tell us we need to develop new golfers.
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I googled for this study on golf digest, and all I can find one article in June 2013 that actually says that golfer's have actually declined 15% over the last 6 years. He doesn't cite his statistics and i'd question the empirical measurement of that number, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt that it is in the ballpark. He also sneaks in however, though he tries to dismiss, that the number of rounds played last year were actually up 6%. Think back, what occurred 6 years ago? Probably the worst economic depression since the 1930's. What about last year? The first preliminary signs of any economic recovery. Housing market and unemployment actually improved. I think making a case the game is in any sort of decline due to the difficulty of the game or the rules is really a loose argument. Why did the game boom in the 90's then? Same game, why did it grow back then? The obvious answer is the Tiger Wood effect...but that is in essence advertising. People flocked to a game that became more visible to them, and they played. They didn't need rule changes to do so.

Why they'd need to change the game now to get that level of growth puzzles me. It is incredibly obvious to me there is a direct correlation between economic conditions and political policy changes to this recent decline in golf, and it is also undeniable that golf probably had the largest growth in it's history in the late 90's, without needing to change any aspect of the game, just increasing it's exposure and marketing power. With those two facts indisputable, why would anyone come to the conclusion now that in order to get that growth back that the game would need to be fundamentally altered?
 
 
Martsy said:
I googled for this study on golf digest, and all I can find one article in June 2013 that actually says that golfer's have actually declined 15% over the last 6 years. He doesn't cite his statistics and i'd question the empirical measurement of that number, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt that it is in the ballpark. He also sneaks in however, though he tries to dismiss, that the number of rounds played last year were actually up 6%. Think back, what occurred 6 years ago? Probably the worst economic depression since the 1930's. What about last year? The first preliminary signs of any economic recovery. Housing market and unemployment actually improved. I think making a case the game is in any sort of decline due to the difficulty of the game or the rules is really a loose argument. Why did the game boom in the 90's then? Same game, why did it grow back then? The obvious answer is the Tiger Wood effect...but that is in essence advertising. People flocked to a game that became more visible to them, and they played. They didn't need rule changes to do so.

Why they'd need to change the game now to get that level of growth puzzles me. It is incredibly obvious to me there is a direct correlation between economic conditions and political policy changes to this recent decline in golf, and it is also undeniable that golf probably had the largest growth in it's history in the late 90's, without needing to change any aspect of the game, just increasing it's exposure and marketing power. With those two facts indisputable, why would anyone come to the conclusion now that in order to get that growth back that the game would need to be fundamentally altered?
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I've tried googling lots of things I've seen in Golf Digest without success, but that's fine. Let's look back a little further to the mid 1980's through the early 1990's when golf grew about 30% although the economy was in terrible shape, eventually becoming a 50% increase from the mid 1980's to 2000. Then, the decline started in 2000, when the economy was very healthy. That decline has continued ever since 2000. That's from the National Golf Foundation, a report titled Golf participation in America, 2010-2020. So I suppose we agree to disagree that the economy and golf participation are closely intertwined. It is certainly disputable though.

As far as the game growing because of advertising, we're seeing the highest marketing ever right now, but not the growth, so I don't know if advertising is the reason you saw an increase in the 1990's. Or if it was then, it certainly isn't growing the game now.

Finally, I don't think this whole thing has ever mentioned fundamentally changing the game. It's simply a forum for people to sound off on. If you ever saw any of these changes actually take place at any course you play, I would be more surprised than if I woke tomorrow morning with my head sewn to the carpet. The bottom line for me is if this platform gets people interested in the game, then I think that's a good thing.
 
What's hurting golf more than anything right now is the belief that it doesn't need to be improved
 
With pace of play issues and a trend towards a lack of manners on the course.... Does our game need something else like this to draw people in? I am all about getting people involved in the game and you have to start somewhere but I don't think this is it. I think it starts on the range with some instruction and you hit that one shot where you are hooked.

These clubs might make it easier to play but they do nothing to help what most golfers who play on a regular basis complain about.


KG

Just Tapping Away
 
Philly Golf Guy said:
I've tried googling lots of things I've seen in Golf Digest without success, but that's fine. Let's look back a little further to the mid 1980's through the early 1990's when golf grew about 30% although the economy was in terrible shape, eventually becoming a 50% increase from the mid 1980's to 2000. Then, the decline started in 2000, when the economy was very healthy. That decline has continued ever since 2000. That's from the National Golf Foundation, a report titled Golf participation in America, 2010-2020. So I suppose we agree to disagree that the economy and golf participation are closely intertwined. It is certainly disputable though.

As far as the game growing because of advertising, we're seeing the highest marketing ever right now, but not the growth, so I don't know if advertising is the reason you saw an increase in the 1990's. Or if it was then, it certainly isn't growing the game now.

Finally, I don't think this whole thing has ever mentioned fundamentally changing the game. It's simply a forum for people to sound off on. If you ever saw any of these changes actually take place at any course you play, I would be more surprised than if I woke tomorrow morning with my head sewn to the carpet. The bottom line for me is if this platform gets people interested in the game, then I think that's a good thing.
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yea, to be clear, i don't think that anything will come out of that forum. This all just a hypothetical discussion. Also just point of fact, the US economy grew from 1984 and on, and some would say signs of the recession ended in 1983.

But regardless, using your own statistics, why do you think the game of golf grew in the in the 80's and 90's, and then not in the 00's? Were there rule changes involved? What brought on that growth if not the game itself? Maybe there's more of a social reason for this that i'm overlooking. As we as a country move towards a more socialist and entitlement society, maybe the issue is much more broad and affecting sports too, such as golf? Just a thought, but one i'd be willing to consider.
 
Lol. Let's blame socialism.
 
blugold said:
What's hurting golf more than anything right now is the belief that it doesn't need to be improved
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I'll buy that. But the question remains: how do we improve golf without compromising the integrity of the game? And is there a way to do it that doesn't point a finger at the player or ask him to spend a ton of money? Cursing slow play, or expecting a different set of equipment rules doesn't really help.

Some of this is going to require that golfers, regardless of skill level, embrace things like Tee it Forward and Time for Nine. This year so far I've played 4 or 5 rounds, but only one from the tees I prefer to play at. Usually, if I get asked what tees I'm playing from, I sort of look at the group. If they expect me to make a decision for the group, I'll almost always choose to hit from the blacks, which are shorter than my usual tees. Doesn't bother me at all, I still get to work on my game, doesn't require extra equipment, it's differently challenging, and doesn't cost me a dime more or less. I honestly think if everyone possessing a handicap over 18 moved up a tee, about 30% of golf's problems would go away.

Some of it is accepting that golf, long thought recession proof, isn't. There might not be a whole lot wrong with golf the game, but there's a decent amount wrong with golf the economy. How does that get fixed? How can the game reduce cost as a barrier to entry? I think there needs to be some initiatives that explain how used or slightly older golf equipment is still highly effective. There needs to be an emphasis by the industry that golf lessons and fittings are a far greater investment than equipment. Inexpensive group lessons that use WalMart brand equipment to show that a bad swing with good equipment isn't nearly as helpful as a good swing with mediocre gear.

Lastly, I think courses need to embrace a new and less expensive way of maintaining courses. Let fairways get a little longer and firmer, let greens get a slightly lower number on the stimp, make clearing out the underbrush a priority so golf balls get found faster. Those are the kinds of things, I think that will be less punishing to newer golfers and speed up pace of play, while also reducing costs.

Those are the ways I think golf can be improved, and while some of them might require a different mindset on the part of golfers, equipment, and courses alike, none of them require a big change in the money department.
 
blugold said:
Lol. Let's blame socialism.
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Hey, socialism could actually be the answer to saving golf. Take money from the rich, give it to the poor. Boom, they can afford to play. A modern day Robin Hood of golf.
 
blugold said:
Lol. Let's blame socialism.
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just throwing out ideas. It's farfetched I'll grant you, but to me makes more sense that all of a sudden after 600 years or so the game isn't fun anymore and needs to change.
 
Paladin said:
I'll buy that. But the question remains: how do we improve golf without compromising the integrity of the game? And is there a way to do it that doesn't point a finger at the player or ask him to spend a ton of money? Cursing slow play, or expecting a different set of equipment rules doesn't really help.

Some of this is going to require that golfers, regardless of skill level, embrace things like Tee it Forward and Time for Nine. This year so far I've played 4 or 5 rounds, but only one from the tees I prefer to play at. Usually, if I get asked what tees I'm playing from, I sort of look at the group. If they expect me to make a decision for the group, I'll almost always choose to hit from the blacks, which are shorter than my usual tees. Doesn't bother me at all, I still get to work on my game, doesn't require extra equipment, it's differently challenging, and doesn't cost me a dime more or less. I honestly think if everyone possessing a handicap over 18 moved up a tee, about 30% of golf's problems would go away.

Some of it is accepting that golf, long thought recession proof, isn't. There might not be a whole lot wrong with golf the game, but there's a decent amount wrong with golf the economy. How does that get fixed? How can the game reduce cost as a barrier to entry? I think there needs to be some initiatives that explain how used or slightly older golf equipment is still highly effective. There needs to be an emphasis by the industry that golf lessons and fittings are a far greater investment than equipment. Inexpensive group lessons that use WalMart brand equipment to show that a bad swing with good equipment isn't nearly as helpful as a good swing with mediocre gear.

Lastly, I think courses need to embrace a new and less expensive way of maintaining courses. Let fairways get a little longer and firmer, let greens get a slightly lower number on the stimp, make clearing out the underbrush a priority so golf balls get found faster. Those are the kinds of things, I think that will be less punishing to newer golfers and speed up pace of play, while also reducing costs.

Those are the ways I think golf can be improved, and while some of them might require a different mindset on the part of golfers, equipment, and courses alike, none of them require a big change in the money department.
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I like a lot of those. Interesting to note, your suggestions are all course level changes. Which is a PGA issue. Not USGA or Taylormade. That's why the PGA is involved here. Good work.

I would also like to see the stake system changed. One stake. Lose a stroke, gain distance. Drop no further than the point of the balls landing no closer to the hole. But that is a rules thing.

drp3434 said:
Hey, socialism could actually be the answer to saving golf. Take money from the rich, give it to the poor. Boom, they can afford to play. A modern day Robin Hood of golf.
Click to expand...

The rich already leave me a lot of pro-v1s to find and use.
 
I don't feel you will grow the game by adding "Gimmicks". I feel to grow the game you have to make it more accessible and to do that is has to be cheaper.

Lets take a first time golfer. How much is that person looking at spending for a set of clubs, 1 lesson and 1 round of golf?

Beginner full set of clubs and bag $300?
One 1 hour lesson in Columbus, OH about $80.
One 18 hole round of golf $40.

That is $420 to spend on something you may absolutely hate after one day.

What needs to happen is for area courses to offer free group lessons, free clubs(for use during lesson and round of golf) and maybe a reduced rate round of golf. Along with this, a brief overview for proper distance to play from and what to do to speed up the game.
 
Martsy said:
yea, to be clear, i don't think that anything will come out of that forum. This all just a hypothetical discussion. Also just point of fact, the US economy grew from 1984 and on, and some would say signs of the recession ended in 1983.

But regardless, using your own statistics, why do you think the game of golf grew in the in the 80's and 90's, and then not in the 00's? Were there rule changes involved? What brought on that growth if not the game itself? Maybe there's more of a social reason for this that i'm overlooking. As we as a country move towards a more socialist and entitlement society, maybe the issue is much more broad and affecting sports too, such as golf? Just a thought, but one i'd be willing to consider.
Click to expand...

Actually, the economy was terrible in the late 1980's through the early 1990's and was coined a recession period, but I suppose it's besides the point. I'm not really interested in getting into a political discussion, but will say from a course design perspective, courses were very penal and difficult in the 1990's through 2000. Developers were interested in building the most difficult and longest courses possible, with some trying to lure a PGA event, but more so for bragging rights. That certainly didn't help grow the game and many of today's architects, like Doak, Coore/Crenshaw, realized that courses could be strategic, fun and challenging without torturing everyone. So, I do think there was a backlash with how courses were designed in that era.
 
I am all for growing the game, and in my eyes younger golfers are really the key. Hook them young, and they will grow up loving the game.

The issue I have with this however, is the way youth golf in my area is handled. At my old course, they would host youth golf for kids in school, and the turnout in the number of kids was fairly large. There was however maybe 2 adults to supervise a group of 30 kids. Without supervision and guidance these kids were out to screw around, not to golf. As soon as they were out of sight of the supervision all hell broke loose (well hell by a regular golfer's definition). Extraordinary slow play, damaging things on the course, littering, generally just messing around.

We were a group behind the final grouping of kids. The course was a mess and we were none to happy to be starting the 3rd hole an hour into our round.
 
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