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Forgiveness overrated?

SuperStroke
I saw first hand how important forgiveness is two weekends ago. I watch my good friend Cookie his ball after ball on the toe, high on the face, near the heal and was not overly penalized. A less forgiving club would have added 4 a side to his round. Forgiveness does not cure the swing flaws but makes them playable.
 
Tadashi70 said:
I saw first hand how important forgiveness is two weekends ago. I watch my good friend Cookie his ball after ball on the toe, high on the face, near the heal and was not overly penalized. A less forgiving club would have added 4 a side to his round. Forgiveness does not cure the swing flaws but makes them playable.
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So aside from perception, how do you know that? The only way to know is to make it measurable.
 
sleuth said:
So aside from perception, how do you know that? The only way to know is to make it measurable.
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It was measurable.
On FlightScope before we started on the course.
 
sleuth said:
So aside from perception, how do you know that? The only way to know is to make it measurable.
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Also fits right in line with the exact measurable data which that club was reviewed on, FWIW of course.
 
JB said:
It was measurable.
On FlightScope before we started on the course.
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Apologies and let me rephrase. I think forgiveness in clubs does exist, without question, but the actual impact on ones game is overrated. And to consolidate my previous posts, the reason I concluded this is because my scores, handicap, or stats didn't really change or move.

I guess I can agree that high handicappers have much different misses and it may actually impact their game, but I haven't seen any conclusive evidence in my game. Have others gone as far to compare different types of clubs over a period with data versus shot by shot?
 
Clubs are very forgiving now. But , and again I will give the message to those who truly want to get better. " it ain't the equipment folks / it's the man-woman-Internet person swinging it" . . Eventually these forgiving clubs will hit some real real bad ones. Eliminate the real real bad ones first by learning and adhering to proper swing fundamentals

Find a competent teacher and work your tail off. Than impress your playing partners / and or internet friends with some great shots
 
Yes. And if you check out our home page reviews, many of them have the data that shows that and every club is tested on a launch monitor (all our staff writers have one) to confirm or deny findings. And of course anybody can signup to be in Club Clash and find out exactly which club works best for them.

If forgiveness didnt matter, drivers would be smaller, fairway woods wouldnt exist, hybrids would have never been made, etc. Its a very measurable number. It doesnt mean every person will see the same thing and people should play what they want to.
 
sleuth said:
So aside from perception, how do you know that? The only way to know is to make it measurable.
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Beside what JB and Jman said. I have played golf with Cookie for many years and never seen him the driver the way he did two weekends ago. I am talking launch, distance and direction. If he had not shown me each time and I was unable to hear the miss-hits, I would have sworn he it on the screws. He has never been close to me off the tee nor has JB for that matter but both were right there and the JB was longer.

Not only did the forgiveness of the driver pay dividends in terms of distance on misses but also from a mental stand point. Being able to get after a club, knowing a slight miss wont leave you in dire straights makes a man swing a little bit harder.
 
Just because you don't see any benefit doesn't mean it doesn't exist. One could argue that you have reach that point where it doesn't matter what you hit. You are getting all you can out off your current game.
sleuth said:
Apologies and let me rephrase. I think forgiveness in clubs does exist, without question, but the actual impact on ones game is overrated. And to consolidate my previous posts, the reason I concluded this is because my scores, handicap, or stats didn't really change or move.

I guess I can agree that high handicappers have much different misses and it may actually impact their game, but I haven't seen any conclusive evidence in my game. Have others gone as far to compare different types of clubs over a period with data versus shot by shot?
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JB said:
Yes. And if you check out our home page reviews, many of them have the data that shows that and every club is tested on a launch monitor (all our staff writers have one) to confirm or deny findings. And of course anybody can signup to be in Club Clash and find out exactly which club works best for them.

If forgiveness didnt matter, drivers would be smaller, fairway woods wouldnt exist, hybrids would have never been made, etc. Its a very measurable number. It doesnt mean every person will see the same thing and people should play what they want to.
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Not disagreeing with any of it, but again this doesn't really tell me that forgiveness is not overrated. I think we're putting emphasis on golf clubs making the game easier, which I think is up for debate.

If I were to use a smaller driver, and long irons instead of a hybrid, do you think I would shoot higher scores? I would happily put that to the test and would disagree.
 
sleuth said:
Not disagreeing with any of it, but again this doesn't really tell me that forgiveness is not overrated. I think we're putting emphasis on golf clubs making the game easier, which I think is up for debate.

If I were to use a smaller driver, and long irons instead of a hybrid, do you think I would shoot higher scores? I would happily put that to the test and would disagree.
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I did put it to the test. Just 3 months ago with an original TaylorMade M1 and all Musclebacks. Shot 9 strokes above my handicap. Played the same course the next day. Shot 1 stroke over my handicap. To me there is not only a measurable difference but eveyr piece of science out there shows it. And no, my test was not scientific, because obviously swings change.

Nobody has said golf clubs will make the game easier. In fact I dont think that is true at all. They can make it less penal however. For a person that has been so vocal about finding the perfect shaft, etc, I find the idea that clubs cannot fundementaly change ball flight a bit interesting. If clubs can alter a ball flight, which you have clearly said with your search for shafts, etc, that is a direct translation to forgiveness. IE, the ball can only spin on one axis and ball speed retention is 100% measurable.

And with all of that said, some people will reach a point where they dont believe it helps their game. Great. Everybody should play what they want.
 
sleuth said:
Not disagreeing with any of it, but again this doesn't really tell me that forgiveness is not overrated. I think we're putting emphasis on golf clubs making the game easier, which I think is up for debate.

If I were to use a smaller driver, and long irons instead of a hybrid, do you think I would shoot higher scores? I would happily put that to the test and would disagree.
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I most certainly do think your scores would be higher
 
@Sleuth - FWIW, my experience has been the exact opposite of yours. My index dropped @7 points and my GIRs doubled over a prolonged period of time going from what I consider to be less forgiving irons to what I consider to be more forgiving irons.
 
Just racking my brain, what drivers would be considered low on the forgiveness scale?
 
blugold said:
Just racking my brain, what drivers would be considered low on the forgiveness scale?
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If you look at forgiveness in terms of ball speed retention, which the vast majority do (and should), then most low and forward CG drivers will fall under that classification based on physics/science and what drop offs are seen on lateral and/or horizontal misses.
 
Jman said:
If you look at forgiveness in terms of ball speed retention, which the vast majority do (and should), then most low and forward CG drivers will fall under that classification based on physics/science and what drop offs are seen on lateral and/or horizontal misses.
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Right. I'm just trying to think of the "muscleback" of the driver world. The only two I can really think of are the Covert Tour and SLDR 430. Which makes me chuckle a bit.
 
Jman said:
If you look at forgiveness in terms of ball speed retention, which the vast majority do (and should), then most low and forward CG drivers will fall under that classification based on physics/science and what drop offs are seen on lateral and/or horizontal misses.
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To me there is more to it than that however. Being as though the ball can only spin on one axis at a time, ball flight does have to play a role in determining the truest label. However with that said, the easiest way to look at this is through the ideas of substantial changes. Take a muscleback 3 iron and then take a hollow body 3 iron and hit 20 shots with each off the turf on a FlightScope or other device. If misses are involved either vertically or side to side, you will see a difference in the ball flight.

Whether that means someone should play it? Of course not, but it does matter and it does assist.
 
blugold said:
Right. I'm just trying to think of the "muscleback" of the driver world. The only two I can really think of are the Covert Tour and SLDR 430. Which makes me chuckle a bit.
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In my testing, original Covert(s), SLDR(s), Bio Pro, and there are a few others who hit that quantification in terms of data.
 
Jman said:
In my testing, original Covert(s), SLDR(s), Bio Pro, and there are a few others who hit that quantification in terms of data.
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I was just thinking if we did put a bag together of the least forgiving clubs, I didn't know where to start at the top. Thanks buddy.
 
JB said:
To me there is more to it than that however. Being as though the ball can only spin on one axis at a time, ball flight does have to play a role in determining the truest label. However with that said, the easiest way to look at this is through the ideas of substantial changes. Take a muscleback 3 iron and then take a hollow body 3 iron and hit 20 shots with each off the turf on a FlightScope or other device. If misses are involved either vertically or side to side, you will see a difference in the ball flight.

Whether that means someone should play it? Of course not, but it does matter and it does assist.
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Oh I agree wholeheartedly, I'm simply putting out the simplest and, hopefully, most tame explanation so as to prevent the typical bru-ha-ha which can sometimes accompany it, especially when the personal gets involved.
 
Jman said:
In my testing, original Covert(s), SLDR(s), Bio Pro, and there are a few others who hit that quantification in terms of data.
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If it wont matter in scoring, go older. Go metal woods right when max COR came in.
 
JB said:
If it wont matter in scoring, go older. Go metal woods right when max COR came in.
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Oh this is crazy true. You know the other I was thinking of? Superdeep. My god I wanted to love that head but ouch ouch ouch. Thank goodness for the awesome that was the SuperTri.
 
Jman said:
Oh this is crazy true. You know the other I was thinking of? Superdeep. My god I wanted to love that head but ouch ouch ouch. Thank goodness for the awesome that was the SuperTri.
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Maybe JB can elaborate, but isn't that head a higher spinning head than a lot of what's out now?
 
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