We've launched the new forums! Read more here

Technical Question - Ball Speed and Smash Factor

-CRW-

-CRW-

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
10,399
Reaction score
1,977
I have a technical question specific to ball speed and smash factor. Specifically, I'm wanting to know what can influence them besides contact location on the face. Could having too little or too much spin cause it, or can different make/model golf balls with the same player/same swing produce different ball speeds? I saw on Trackman's blog that "glancing blows" influence. I'm just curious as to what all influences this factor.
 
Squareness of face and club path also influence smash factor. Ideally your club path is square at impact and so is the club face.
 
tahoebum said:
Squareness of face and club path also influence smash factor. Ideally your club path is square at impact and so is the club face.
Click to expand...

Agreed on these albeit they play a much smaller role than the impact point on the club. Ball type should play no part in the smash factor although it certainly may in your shot results. You can also run into some errors depending on if the radar is misaligned which can affect the clubhead speed measurement (the toe moves faster than the heel).
 
-CRW- said:
I have a technical question specific to ball speed and smash factor. Specifically, I'm wanting to know what can influence them besides contact location on the face. Could having too little or too much spin cause it, or can different make/model golf balls with the same player/same swing produce different ball speeds? I saw on Trackman's blog that "glancing blows" influence. I'm just curious as to what all influences this factor.
Click to expand...

i think it can. no one who has played with me would say i have an ideal swing with perfect launch conditions. but i routinely get 1.50 and even 1.51 smash factor with driver because my spin is so low, my ss isn't very fast, but the ball speed and distance are ok relative to the other numbers.
 
-CRW- said:
I have a technical question specific to ball speed and smash factor. Specifically, I'm wanting to know what can influence them besides contact location on the face. Could having too little or too much spin cause it, or can different make/model golf balls with the same player/same swing produce different ball speeds? I saw on Trackman's blog that "glancing blows" influence. I'm just curious as to what all influences this factor.
Click to expand...

You also have to take into account what machine/measuring device is being used - some of them estimate rather measure aspects of the swing/impact and then can give a faulty smash factor result.
 
Timing of the swing and all released energy into the ball. Spend any amount of energy to soon or too late via less than perfect body and/or club movements and that will mean less energy transferred to the ball.
 
aslxa said:
Agreed on these albeit they play a much smaller role than the impact point on the club. Ball type should play no part in the smash factor although it certainly may in your shot results. You can also run into some errors depending on if the radar is misaligned which can affect the clubhead speed measurement (the toe moves faster than the heel).
Click to expand...

I'm no expert, but I certainly do think ball type could impact smash factor. A ball with a compression that fits your SS I would think could lead to higher ball speed.

Once again, no expert, but I don't think spin would impact smash factor. I have seen 1.5 with high spin, and low spin.
 
I have the question because I had a "Titleist Thursday" fitting yesterday on Trackman. I have a 915 D2 driver at 8.5* with Diamana D+ White 70X shaft. My club head speed was averaging 113 mph, the path was between -1.6 and +0.6 with a face angle that was -0.5 to -2.7, my spin was 3800-4000, and my attack angle was -1.5 to -2. So essentially a straight shot with a slight draw to it that was very close to my intended target line. BUT, I was getting a smash factor of 1.40 to 1.44 and ball speeds of 155 or so. Ideally I should be getting ball speeds of around 165 with my club head speed. I'm getting 255 carry and up to 275 total, but I could get to 275 carry and 290+ total if I can lower spin and figure out what's up with the ball speed/smash factor.

We used impact tape and the majority of the shots where relatively centered, enough so that both fitters didn't think I should be loosing that much ball speed. We were using Titleist NXT range balls that were pretty worn. We tried other shafts but they didn't have anything heavier/stiffer than what I had. We tried the D3 head and it took the spin down to 3200-3300 but dispersion was worse and ball speed didn't change. We could rule out "glancing blows" because even on the shots that were very straight I was getting less ball speed than I should be.

I'm not sure how much experience the fitters had, but there were two present and they were kind of stumped. I know I could hit up more on the ball to reduce spin and get more carry, but I didn't think that would increase ball speed (which I why I'm here posing the original question).

Prior to this fitting I ordered a Diamana D+ White 80x that's cut to play at the stock 45" length in a 915 driver with adapter installed. The fitters suggestions were to go with the Diamana D+ White 80x shaft in the D2 head to drop spin but keep the forgiveness of the D2 head versus the D3. They also suggested cutting it to play at 44.5" instead of the stock 45" to ensure I get the best contact possible as often as possible. I ran out of time to try the D4 head.
 
-CRW- said:
I have the question because I had a "Titleist Thursday" fitting yesterday on Trackman. I have a 915 D2 driver at 8.5* with Diamana D+ White 70X shaft. My club head speed was averaging 113 mph, the path was between -1.6 and +0.6 with a face angle that was -0.5 to -2.7, my spin was 3800-4000, and my attack angle was -1.5 to -2. So essentially a straight shot with a slight draw to it that was very close to my intended target line. BUT, I was getting a smash factor of 1.40 to 1.44 and ball speeds of 155 or so. Ideally I should be getting ball speeds of around 165 with my club head speed. I'm getting 255 carry and up to 275 total, but I could get to 275 carry and 290+ total if I can lower spin and figure out what's up with the ball speed/smash factor.

We used impact tape and the majority of the shots where relatively centered, enough so that both fitters didn't think I should be loosing that much ball speed. We were using Titleist NXT range balls that were pretty worn. We tried other shafts but they didn't have anything heavier/stiffer than what I had. We tried the D3 head and it took the spin down to 3200-3300 but dispersion was worse and ball speed didn't change. We could rule out "glancing blows" because even on the shots that were very straight I was getting less ball speed than I should be.

I'm not sure how much experience the fitters had, but there were two present and they were kind of stumped. I know I could hit up more on the ball to reduce spin and get more carry, but I didn't think that would increase ball speed (which I why I'm here posing the original question).

Prior to this fitting I ordered a Diamana D+ White 80x that's cut to play at the stock 45" length in a 915 driver with adapter installed. The fitters suggestions were to go with the Diamana D+ White 80x shaft in the D2 head to drop spin but keep the forgiveness of the D2 head versus the D3. They also suggested cutting it to play at 44.5" instead of the stock 45" to ensure I get the best contact possible as often as possible. I ran out of time to try the D4 head.
Click to expand...

I would have grabbed a couple normal balls and see if ball speed went up.
 
Wake said:
I would have grabbed a couple normal balls and see if ball speed went up.
Click to expand...

I didn't think about that because I was on an open range and they would have been gone, though it would have been worth the piece of mind.
 
It's really frustrating because a year ago at the UST Event on Trackman I had less swing speed (max was just under 108) and made worse contact, but was getting roughly the same ball speed at 155 and the same carry distances of around 255. But we were hitting new Pro V1/Pro V1x golf balls and I was using a different driver head (Callaway XR). I would write it off as a lack of forgiveness of the 915 head, but the impact positions were decent and a few that were close to dead center or center and slightly high still produced similar ball speeds.
 
Smash Factor is Ball speed divided by clubhead speed. So its just a ratio to relate the efficiency of a swing. I assume everything would affect those numbers (ball speed & clubhead speed) from ball construction to driver face, let alone whatever your swing is doing to deliver the clubface to the ball at impact.

Not sure of the reason why but the consensus has always been that max smash factor is 1.5. Not sure if that is scientific or from observations. They would probably have to look at the long drive guys and conforming equipment only...

Your ball speed at 155 with a swing speed of 113 would be a SF of 1.37, so you are definitely losing some efficiency somewhere.

Or maybe the Trackman calibration was off. You would think the Titleist setup would be pretty reliable but who knows...
 
DaBuckBoys said:
Smash Factor is Ball speed divided by clubhead speed. So its just a ratio to relate the efficiency of a swing. I assume everything would affect those numbers (ball speed & clubhead speed) from ball construction to driver face, let alone whatever your swing is doing to deliver the clubface to the ball at impact.

Not sure of the reason why but the consensus has always been that max smash factor is 1.5. Not sure if that is scientific or from observations. They would probably have to look at the long drive guys and conforming equipment only...

Your ball speed at 155 with a swing speed of 113 would be a SF of 1.37, so you are definitely losing some efficiency somewhere.

Or maybe the Trackman calibration was off. You would think the Titleist setup would be pretty reliable but who knows...
Click to expand...

It has always been my understanding that 1.5 is the max allowable for a club to be conforming.
 
DaBuckBoys said:
Or maybe the Trackman calibration was off. You would think the Titleist setup would be pretty reliable but who knows...
Click to expand...

I think he at least considered that because he had me move a few times to make sure I was in front of the monitor. But as far as setting it up, I have no clue. I've been able to hit on Trackman plenty of times, but have never been involved in setting one up.
 
-CRW- said:
I have the question because I had a "Titleist Thursday" fitting yesterday on Trackman. I have a 915 D2 driver at 8.5* with Diamana D+ White 70X shaft. My club head speed was averaging 113 mph, the path was between -1.6 and +0.6 with a face angle that was -0.5 to -2.7, my spin was 3800-4000, and my attack angle was -1.5 to -2. So essentially a straight shot with a slight draw to it that was very close to my intended target line. BUT, I was getting a smash factor of 1.40 to 1.44 and ball speeds of 155 or so. Ideally I should be getting ball speeds of around 165 with my club head speed. I'm getting 255 carry and up to 275 total, but I could get to 275 carry and 290+ total if I can lower spin and figure out what's up with the ball speed/smash factor.

We used impact tape and the majority of the shots where relatively centered, enough so that both fitters didn't think I should be loosing that much ball speed. We were using Titleist NXT range balls that were pretty worn. We tried other shafts but they didn't have anything heavier/stiffer than what I had. We tried the D3 head and it took the spin down to 3200-3300 but dispersion was worse and ball speed didn't change. We could rule out "glancing blows" because even on the shots that were very straight I was getting less ball speed than I should be.

I'm not sure how much experience the fitters had, but there were two present and they were kind of stumped. I know I could hit up more on the ball to reduce spin and get more carry, but I didn't think that would increase ball speed (which I why I'm here posing the original question).

Prior to this fitting I ordered a Diamana D+ White 80x that's cut to play at the stock 45" length in a 915 driver with adapter installed. The fitters suggestions were to go with the Diamana D+ White 80x shaft in the D2 head to drop spin but keep the forgiveness of the D2 head versus the D3. They also suggested cutting it to play at 44.5" instead of the stock 45" to ensure I get the best contact possible as often as possible. I ran out of time to try the D4 head.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is a pretty low smash factor, especially given the other swing characteristics you mentioned. Was this fitting inside or out? If inside, how far did the ball carry before hitting the back wall?

Very worn balls will make a difference, no matter the brand/type. In the days when I fit, I encouraged the serious golfers to bring some good condition shag balls of their ball of choice to confirm the fitting. Results generally were not too different from quality range balls in good condition. Trackman also has a ball conversion feature which many fitters do not set up properly: http://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-webinar-ball-conversion/
 
Wake said:
It has always been my understanding that 1.5 is the max allowable for a club to be conforming.
Click to expand...


There is a range of error also and thus it is not unusual to see 1.51 and 1.52 from very good ballstrikers.
 
aslxa said:
Yeah, that is a pretty low smash factor, especially given the other swing characteristics you mentioned. Was this fitting inside or out? If inside, how far did the ball carry before hitting the back wall?

Very worn balls will make a difference, no matter the brand/type. In the days when I fit, I encouraged the serious golfers to bring some good condition shag balls of their ball of choice to confirm the fitting. Results generally were not too different from quality range balls in good condition. Trackman also has a ball conversion feature which many fitters do not set up properly: http://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-webinar-ball-conversion/
Click to expand...

It was outdoor, but I was hitting to a target that was only around 200 yards so I wouldn't have been able to verify the actual distances by lasering to a flag/pin. I know I hit the ball way too high and if it's wet my balls plug, so I knew going in that my spin was way off even on straight shots. The club came from 2ndSwing so I'm confident it's not a fake. And my smash factor with my irons is generally pretty close to ideal when I put a good swing on the ball. A 7 iron for me is around 96-98 mph over 1.3 smash and 125-128 ball speed, 6 iron is similar club speed and 130+ ball speed. So I feel like it wouldn't take much for to get the driver numbers ironed out, I'm just looking for all the possible avenues to address the issue.
 
-CRW- said:
It was outdoor, but I was hitting to a target that was only around 200 yards so I wouldn't have been able to verify the actual distances by lasering to a flag/pin. I know I hit the ball way too high and if it's wet my balls plug, so I knew going in that my spin was way off even on straight shots. The club came from 2ndSwing so I'm confident it's not a fake. And my smash factor with my irons is generally pretty close to ideal when I put a good swing on the ball. A 7 iron for me is around 96-98 mph over 1.3 smash and 125-128 ball speed, 6 iron is similar club speed and 130+ ball speed. So I feel like it wouldn't take much for to get the driver numbers ironed out, I'm just looking for all the possible avenues to address the issue.
Click to expand...

Just my very humble opinion but it seems like there are a lot of variables at play here. If possible, I would check out your driver on a different Trackman, preferably with good condition balls (your gamers being the absolutely best option but not entirely nescessary) and in that way determine if the Trackman itself was to blame. After that I start looking at the head itself - bad fit, lower COR, etc? You can test it side by side with one off the rack.
 
I think it could be a matter of fit. Is your transition really quick and aggressive? 80X seems like a lot of shaft for a 113 SS.

In my experience, Ive seen range of ball speed of up to 10 MPH between well suited clubs and the ill-fit ones. Im in the exact range of SS as you are and you are on the money in wanting to see ball speeds around 165. It doesnt take much of a miss to drop smash factor like a brick, especially on those Titleist drivers, which I didnt find very forgiving at all. Ive had pretty extreme ball speed drops with too much shaft as well. Couple that with what you described as "decently centered" contact and its conceivable to see a pretty substantial drop. I would love to see your swing to get a better idea of what the fitters are looking at.
 
-CRW- said:
It was outdoor, but I was hitting to a target that was only around 200 yards so I wouldn't have been able to verify the actual distances by lasering to a flag/pin. I know I hit the ball way too high and if it's wet my balls plug, so I knew going in that my spin was way off even on straight shots. The club came from 2ndSwing so I'm confident it's not a fake. And my smash factor with my irons is generally pretty close to ideal when I put a good swing on the ball. A 7 iron for me is around 96-98 mph over 1.3 smash and 125-128 ball speed, 6 iron is similar club speed and 130+ ball speed. So I feel like it wouldn't take much for to get the driver numbers ironed out, I'm just looking for all the possible avenues to address the issue.
Click to expand...
Seems like some sort of shaft issue with some vertical gear effect while hitting down maybe causing some clubhead deflection if that is the right word.
 
EaglevsFalcon said:
I think it could be a matter of fit. Is your transition really quick and aggressive? 80X seems like a lot of shaft for a 113 SS.

In my experience, Ive seen range of ball speed of up to 10 MPH between well suited clubs and the ill-fit ones. Im in the exact range of SS as you are and you are on the money in wanting to see ball speeds around 165. It doesnt take much of a miss to drop smash factor like a brick, especially on those Titleist drivers, which I didnt find very forgiving at all. Ive had pretty extreme ball speed drops with too much shaft as well. Couple that with what you described as "decently centered" contact and its conceivable to see a pretty substantial drop. I would love to see your swing to get a better idea of what the fitters are looking at.
Click to expand...

I do have a hard transition. And it's hard to go the other way in shafts because of spin. My spin is pushing 4k with the 70x. I have the 80x in my 3 wood and carry it around 250 as well. That's part of why I ordered the 80x for the driver. If it lowers my spin and peak height some, my carry and total distances will improve (even if not the best fit).
 
-CRW- said:
I do have a hard transition. And it's hard to go the other way in shafts because of spin. My spin is pushing 4k with the 70x. I have the 80x in my 3 wood and carry it around 250 as well. That's part of why I ordered the 80x for the driver. If it lowers my spin and peak height some, my carry and total distances will improve (even if not the best fit).
Click to expand...
I would consider looking away from the Whiteboard then. While it is a low spin shaft, it isnt the lowest, and IMO, it has a smoother bend profile that might not jive with your transition. This is a downside with Titleist that they dont offer alot of options in shafting their clubs (last I checked anyway). I love the whiteboard but I also have a smooth transition so it suits me very well. I think that it could be that upping the weight in the Whiteboard was a band-aid for Titleist not having a better fit for your swing. If possible, hit up a big box with a monitor and try hitting a few drivers with large no cost upgrade shaft options, like Callaway and Taylormade, and experiment with how the different shafts affect your ball speed and contact consistency.
 
The Titleist fitter certainly isn't going to tell me that their driver is unforgiving or that I'm losing a ton of ball speed because I'm 1/10th of an inch off center.

I'm not married to any of my equipment and will look at some other options. I always thought the Whiteboard was good for high swing speed and harder transitions, but I have no idea why I thought that.
 
Try a Mistubishi Tensi Pro Blue TX 80 or maybe a HZRDUS Black 75
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top