Socialism in Golf

MUTiger

KC Golfer
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
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Location
Missouri
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Is there any better example of socialism than the golf handicapping system? A person who works hard stands not to benefit at all from the fruits of his (or her) labors. In fact, the whole system is actually a disincentive to become any better.

My regular weekend play is with a great group of guys, but our game is generously slanted toward the higher handicap players. We play a basic game of skins and greenies, but everyone wheels off the person with the lowest handicap. I started the year off with a 6, but have now worked it down to a 1. Unfortunately, I receive none of the benefits for improving my game. Instead those who have stayed the same, or worse yet, have gotten worse, now get even more strokes. Last weekend I played with an high handicapper who went net birdie-eagle-birdie. Of course, his actual scores were par-birdie-par, but because of golfing socialism he ended up winning some skins.

I used to play a more American game – tennis. There is no comparable handicapping system in tennis. If you play against a better player you will almost always get beat. The only solution is to work hard to raise your game to the level of your opponent's. Failure to do so will only result in more defeats. Your opponent is not asked to carry a bucket of sand or use half of the court as a means of making up for your own shortcomings. If you don’t like it, don’t play, or find someone of comparable ability. The better, more skilled player wins – the American way.

The above is only half tongue in cheek. I actually care more about what I shoot as opposed to how much money I made. I’d rather shoot a 69 with no skins than a 79 with couple of skins I lucked into over the course of a sloppy round. I play golf while others are playing skins – there’s a definite difference between the two. But there seems to be something inherently unfair about a system that doesn’t reward a person’s desire for self-improvement.
 
You're a man after my own heart and speaking as a person who also worked himself down to a low handicap, I understand exactly what you're saying and I agree with you from a philosophical point of view.

But there is a vast difference between philosophy (which exists in the mind) and reality (which exists in everyday life).

The handicapping system, though it may seem or even actually BE flawed, is the only way in which golfers of dissimilar talent or dedication levels can play against each other on as level a playing field as possible. If you and your handicap played against someone with a twelve handicap, you'd most likely win most of the time and what fun is that for the guy with the twelve if he had no way of being able to adjust for the disparity in your skill levels?

That doesn't mean that he can't improve and that one day you guys could play toe-to-toe with no handicaps at all, but what happens in the meantime? Playing and working towards a personal best is great, but it's often a lonely endeavor. Since golf is a social game, you're going to run into many people with wildly varying skill levels and since that's the case -- the reality, why not just enjoy it with the handicaps and when you're out their on your own, go find the club pro, talk some trash and have a ball?

That way, one activity satisfies your need to be social and the other satisfies your ego.

Best of both worlds, if you ask me.


-JP
 
I HATE sandbagers!

When I used to play in leagues it was out of control no one ever called them out on so it continued to just get worse.

Good work on getting down to a 1, that is pretty awesome.
 
Very good observation. I never thought about the golf handicap system that way until now.

The only point I'd like to make is: those making an actual living in golf don't use the "socialistic" system, they are capitalists (aka, private decisions in a free market).

And sandbagging is a serious offense to one's itegrity.
 
The handicap system will always be hindered by cheaters but the solution to your problem is make them play gross skins game and earn their winnings. This brings up another problem that I saw this weekend. We had a 4 ball tournament at our club and the entire field was men except for one lone female. The board decided to make her play from the back tees and let the seniors play from the gold tees (senior tees). The sad part is half of those men in their 60's can still hit the ball 225 or more yards. I don't have as much of a problem with the handicap system as I do the tee's people can play from in tournaments. If you sign up for a tournament everyone should play from the same tee's. If you can't hit the ball far enough then play in a tournament for your skill level, sex, or age. To me the unfair advantage of playing 150 yards ahead of me on a par 5 FAR outweighs having to give up a few shots in a round. Of course in a non competitive match or rounds that don't allow people to win hundreds of bucks in a calcutta I'm all for you playing from where ever you want.
 
My regular weekend play is with a great group of guys, but our game is generously slanted toward the higher handicap players. We play a basic game of skins and greenies, but everyone wheels off the person with the lowest handicap. I started the year off with a 6, but have now worked it down to a 1. Unfortunately, I receive none of the benefits for improving my game. Instead those who have stayed the same, or worse yet, have gotten worse, now get even more strokes. Last weekend I played with an high handicapper who went net birdie-eagle-birdie. Of course, his actual scores were par-birdie-par, but because of golfing socialism he ended up winning some skins.

Wow, your group gives strokes for skins game. You REALLY are handicapping the lower players and giving the high cappers no incentive to improve. I think a better alternative is to give them a certain number of mulligans in their back pocket. In my experience in playing golf games, the better player should usually win. However, there are the unusual circumstances where skins may carry for several holes and the bad player gets lucky. No way should the high handicap come out on top most of the times you play.
 
Then dont play with the higher handicappers. When I play a round of golf and I am going to bet, I will only bet with people that are around the same handicap. If a better golfer wants to bet me then I will ask him what he will give me. I dont have the means to practice as much as I like. And golf is different to each individual. I travel a ton for work and do not have the means to practice all the time. But if I still want ot get in a weekend tourney I should still be allowed to. I personally love seeing all sorts of people playing golf. I hope people grow a love for the game like I have. I can understand your frustrations but always remember they joy you feel from a birdie a high handicapper gets that much joy from a par. I am not replying to start anything, just wanted to throw my own personal view out there. My bro is a low handicapper and we will bet and just enjoy seeing one another doing well in such a challenging sport.
 
There's plenty of reward for the desire to improve one's game but winning money gambling isn't one of them. You yourself said that you'd rather shoot a 69 and win nothing then a 79 and win some cash. It sounds like you got the reward of personal satisfaction out of your improvements.

The problem, as always, are sandbaggers. There is always someone out there that will find a way to make the system work to their advantage.

Me, I do good in HCP events in theory. My current index is 34 and change. My game has gotten better and I've put some rounds together that are more inline with a 27. I'll drop to a 31 or so in a few days with the next revision. So in a way this is no different then the law of diminishing returns. I get bigger benefit for my early improvement but as I get better, my overall benfit isn't as great.
 
Wow, your group gives strokes for skins game. You REALLY are handicapping the lower players and giving the high cappers no incentive to improve. I think a better alternative is to give them a certain number of mulligans in their back pocket. In my experience in playing golf games, the better player should usually win. However, there are the unusual circumstances where skins may carry for several holes and the bad player gets lucky. No way should the high handicap come out on top most of the times you play.

I was thinking the same thing. In the handicapped events I play, the stroke play has a gross and net winner. Then the skins game is gross only. I know it'll be a rare day that I went the stroke play events. But, I'm usually 'playing against myself' and just hope I grab a couple of skins to pay the entries. Plus, playing in these types events gets a bit of tournament feel. So, I'm mentally prepped for the bigger events.
 
In some ways it is a good example but you seem to be mistaking work for talent. Just because someone plays off 18 doesn't mean that he isn't putting as much effort into his game as the lower handicappers. Yet you seem to resent higher caps winning based on ability and not work ethic. I suspect many, many high handicappers have the desire to improve.

You refer to it as "self-improvement", well there are many ways to do that and few are on the golf course and playing field.

Your theory is closer to elitism
 
there's a numerical factor in the handicap equation that does give better golfers an advantage, there's a .96 multiplyer that goes into the handicap

the lower your handicap (as long as people aren't sandbagging) the better your odds of winning
 
In the absence of sandbaggers, I've found that "net" competitions even out over time.

It's the sandbaggers that you have to watch out for. I recently played a two-day tournament where the maximum allowed handicap was 18. A guy came in with an index of exactly 18.0 and shot 77-78 (gross) to win the net. Real 18s do not break 80 two days in a row. He won $450.
 
there's a numerical factor in the handicap equation that does give better golfers an advantage, there's a .96 multiplyer that goes into the handicap

the lower your handicap (as long as people aren't sandbagging) the better your odds of winning

I agree, My handicap right now reads 10....The last course I played brought that down from a 13.5 where I shot an 86 on a par 70 course. So, it says I am a 10 handicap when I was actually 16 strokes over.
 
In the absence of sandbaggers, I've found that "net" competitions even out over time.

It's the sandbaggers that you have to watch out for. I recently played a two-day tournament where the maximum allowed handicap was 18. A guy came in with an index of exactly 18.0 and shot 77-78 (gross) to win the net. Real 18s do not break 80 two days in a row. He won $450.

That's ridiculous! (I'm agreeing with you to be clear!). My handicap is around 14 these days and I've never broken 80 in my life, I certainly couldn't do it 2 days in a row. The tournament director should have nullified this liar's rounds!!!
 
In the absence of sandbaggers, I've found that "net" competitions even out over time.

It's the sandbaggers that you have to watch out for. I recently played a two-day tournament where the maximum allowed handicap was 18. A guy came in with an index of exactly 18.0 and shot 77-78 (gross) to win the net. Real 18s do not break 80 two days in a row. He won $450.

Aren't there tournaments where they send you out to play, you post your actual score, and then they set the flights (A, B, C, D, etc.) according to wherever they make the breaks? Seems like the fair way to me.
 
Is there any better example of socialism than the golf handicapping system? A person who works hard stands not to benefit at all from the fruits of his (or her) labors. In fact, the whole system is actually a disincentive to become any better.

My regular weekend play is with a great group of guys, but our game is generously slanted toward the higher handicap players. We play a basic game of skins and greenies, but everyone wheels off the person with the lowest handicap. I started the year off with a 6, but have now worked it down to a 1. Unfortunately, I receive none of the benefits for improving my game. Instead those who have stayed the same, or worse yet, have gotten worse, now get even more strokes. Last weekend I played with an high handicapper who went net birdie-eagle-birdie. Of course, his actual scores were par-birdie-par, but because of golfing socialism he ended up winning some skins.

I used to play a more American game – tennis. There is no comparable handicapping system in tennis. If you play against a better player you will almost always get beat. The only solution is to work hard to raise your game to the level of your opponent's. Failure to do so will only result in more defeats. Your opponent is not asked to carry a bucket of sand or use half of the court as a means of making up for your own shortcomings. If you don’t like it, don’t play, or find someone of comparable ability. The better, more skilled player wins – the American way.

The above is only half tongue in cheek. I actually care more about what I shoot as opposed to how much money I made. I’d rather shoot a 69 with no skins than a 79 with couple of skins I lucked into over the course of a sloppy round. I play golf while others are playing skins – there’s a definite difference between the two. But there seems to be something inherently unfair about a system that doesn’t reward a person’s desire for self-improvement.

Hmmm! Now it makes sense! I think the president of the USGA was an advisor to Congress on the Health Care bill. The conspiracy grows!
 
Is there any better example of socialism than the golf handicapping system?
Errm ... yes.

First Obama, now golf .... hahahahaha. You yanks need to get over yourselves with the whole socialism thing.
 
It's the perfect system when you play golf the way the handicap system was designed for. You against the course.

If you're playing matchplay, skins, or any other game.....it's your own fault for not working out a better handicap system that brings everyone closer.
 
I may be one of the few that believes in the handicap system. There is no way you can play against others without handicaps. When I played in a leaque, we all had handicaps and A-C flight (I know you were talking about skins). When a low handicapper would loose it was because 1: the high handicapper had a good day and\or the low handicapper had a bad day. If a high handicapper beat you because he had (as your example) par-birdie-par, then he is probably having a good day since he normally doesn't get 3 par's in a row. But that also equates to you getting a birdie - eagle - birdie. Which in that case you would have carried the skins over to the next hole. I was in "A" flight and the leaque champion, yet if a high handicapper shot his handicap and I shot a little over my handicap... I would loose.

But I agree with all others that it is the sandbaggers to watch out for. With them, you will lose every time.
 
Errm ... yes.

First Obama, now golf .... hahahahaha. You yanks need to get over yourselves with the whole socialism thing.

As the old saying goes, "It isn't paranoia if its true!"
 
Errm ... yes.

First Obama, now golf .... hahahahaha. You yanks need to get over yourselves with the whole socialism thing.

i'd have to agree!!!!
 
Never, ever, ever, EVER play handicaps in skins games.

I have a buddy that's shoots high 90's, but if you look over his scorecards its 8 pars, 4 bogies, 4 doubles, 2 quads.

Guys that play feast or famine have a huge advantage...similar to match play.

Every time people give him strokes he wins, because there's a 50% chance his par will beat the 4some (net birdie).

He blows up on a hole, somebody matches your par and it carries over to the next hole. Stroke play only with handicaps.
 
there's a numerical factor in the handicap equation that does give better golfers an advantage, there's a .96 multiplyer that goes into the handicap

the lower your handicap (as long as people aren't sandbagging) the better your odds of winning

As cmoors just said, that's not true if you're playing skins. The high scoring holes don't matter, only the low ones. There will be people around with 18 handicaps who just make 18 bogeys, maybe with the odd par and the odd double chucked in. You'll compete well with them. Not with the guys that make 9 pars and 9 doubles though. They'll take you to the cleaners.

MUTiger,

I would look on it as the handicapping system allows you to have competitive matches with your friends who aren't as good as you. I don't know anyone who's ever been dissuaded from improving because it won't improve their chances of beating their buddies for bragging rights. If it weren't for the handicap system, they wouldn't play you for money, so in a way, the handicap has increased your opportunity to win money off your friends.

As to the tennis. All that happens is that you end up playing with people about your standard. I haven't played tennis with a competitive bent since I was pre-teens, so I have no idea if there's a gambling culture in it, but I'll bet you wouldn't play against someone a lot better than you for money. At least not consistently. Golf has such a gambling culture because of the level playing field.
 
In some ways it is a good example but you seem to be mistaking work for talent. Just because someone plays off 18 doesn't mean that he isn't putting as much effort into his game as the lower handicappers. Yet you seem to resent higher caps winning based on ability and not work ethic. I suspect many, many high handicappers have the desire to improve.

You refer to it as "self-improvement", well there are many ways to do that and few are on the golf course and playing field.

Your theory is closer to elitism

This is my take on it too. Not everyone has the inborn talent to take their game to a single digit handicap. The OP would deny them the opportunity to compete against anyone better than they are. No one in his right mind is going to play straight up, his 18 against another player's 5. And anyone who gambles with someone he doesn't know deserves his fate. We gamble, and we sometimes give strokes, but we do it from experience. We know how the guys in our extended group generally play. We know how they arrived at their handicaps, so we can make such stroke adjustments based on that.

Most high handicappers don't make a lot of pars, no matter what was said above. Can they have a mini streak? Sure, but it's rare, and they are more likely to have a streak of doubles. They are also more likely to miss a 3 foot putt if it's for a skin than their lower handicap competitors. They just don't have the game to withstand the pressure of a key putt or chip.

One of the best ways I know of to lose a golfing buddy is to take a hard line on stroke adjustment when playing a low stakes skins game with them. In our group, we only give strokes to the higher handicaps and we don't give the full differential... they don't expect that. But in a bunch like ours with caps from about 5 all the way to 20, there has to be some adjustment to keep it fun and friendly. None of us is playing for blood, and the money (usually $.25 skins and greenies) is just an additional way of keeping score.
 
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