We've launched the new forums! Read more here

Course/Slope Rating Question or Comparison

-CRW-

-CRW-

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
10,399
Reaction score
1,977
With JB's thread on what tees you would play, I was wondering how much more difficult courses become based on differences in course/slope rating. For example, the black tees he listed in that thread had a course and slope rating of 71.4/144 and is 6459 yards. One of my home courses black tee equivalent (gold/championship) is 74.2/134 and 7309 yards.

I understand (maybe incorrectly) that the higher the number, the more difficult the course. But how does one course have a higher course rating and the other have a higher slope rating? And aside from the difference in length, is one obviously more/less difficult than the other?
 
Slope & Rating have to do with the course set up and layout, as well as what a 18 hcp would shoot as compared to what a 0 hcp would shoot at the course, based upon distance.
Interesting note - Slope Rating does not take into account how fast/undulating greens are. So take a course, increase the green speed to upwards of 13 stimpmeter, and nothing changes about the slope rating.
 
In general: Course rating is an indicator for low handicap golfers. Slope rating is an indicator for high handicappers.

For the 71.4/144 course, it will not be too difficult for scratch golfers with a rating just .4 over par but it is extremely difficult for high handicappers with the 144 slope rating compared to the, so called, average course slope rating of 113.

For the 74.2/134 course, it is more of a challenge for low handicappers at 74.2 and still difficult but not quiet as severe for the high handicapper at 134.

A high handicapper would probably have a very long day on either course.
 
What are some of examples in a layout that would make a course harder for better players that wouldn't affect high handicappers as much? Would it be hazards that better players might reach, but high handicappers aren't expected to reach and by pass or clear with a second shot?
 
-CRW- said:
What are some of examples in a layout that would make a course harder for better players that wouldn't affect high handicappers as much? Would it be hazards that better players might reach, but high handicappers aren't expected to reach and by pass or clear with a second shot?
Click to expand...
I've often wondered the same thing. It makes no sense to me.
 
-CRW- said:
What are some of examples in a layout that would make a course harder for better players that wouldn't affect high handicappers as much? Would it be hazards that better players might reach, but high handicappers aren't expected to reach and by pass or clear with a second shot?
Click to expand...
Wide open fairways, carry over water/hazard on second/approach shots, and tough greens. Drop off areas around the greens that do not affect the straight approach.
Fairway bunkers that are in play for long hitters, not for short hitters (270-300 off the tee).
Hourglass shaped landing areas.
Those are some that I can think of.
 
-CRW- said:
What are some of examples in a layout that would make a course harder for better players that wouldn't affect high handicappers as much? Would it be hazards that better players might reach, but high handicappers aren't expected to reach and by pass or clear with a second shot?
Click to expand...

One description I have read is that smaller greens are seen as more difficult to low handicappers even if there are narrow fairways where as a high handicapper is affected more by narrow fairways and small greens. Basicly saying green size affects low handicappers more but fairway tightness affects high handicappers more.
 
Spivey said:
Slope & Rating have to do with the course set up and layout, as well as what a 18 hcp would shoot as compared to what a 0 hcp would shoot at the course, based upon distance.
Interesting note - Slope Rating does not take into account how fast/undulating greens are. So take a course, increase the green speed to upwards of 13 stimpmeter, and nothing changes about the slope rating.
Click to expand...

This bit makes me furious. We have a couple courses around here that have really tough greens but aren't as tough tee to green, and as such they are really tough to shoot your cap on.
 
krispyk said:
One description I have read is that smaller greens are seen as more difficult to low handicappers even if there are narrow fairways where as a high handicapper is affected more by narrow fairways and small greens. Basicly saying green size affects low handicappers more but fairway tightness affects high handicappers more.
Click to expand...
I have read essentially the same example.

Also, be aware that the two systems employ different means of measuring. I think course rating is actual strokes. Slope is more complex - basically picture a graph with scores charted. Then draw a line from the bogey golfer's score to par (?). "Slope" is a measure of the steepness of that line. So a 144 slope is not 7 strokes harder than a 137 slope, it's just 7 units of slope measurement harder.
 
A straight Par 5 might be reachable for a scratch golfer and thus be considered easier. If you've got water in front if the green though or it's meandering like a serpent with OOB lurking on every corner, it's definitively harder to play and and a three-shot Par5, so higher CR, but as the Bogey golfer also needs three to get there, it could have a relatively benign slope. Because slope is only a relative number to CR.



Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk
 
tequila4kapp said:
I have read essentially the same example.

Also, be aware that the two systems employ different means of measuring. I think course rating is actual strokes. Slope is more complex - basically picture a graph with scores charted. Then draw a line from the bogey golfer's score to par (?). "Slope" is a measure of the steepness of that line. So a 144 slope is not 7 strokes harder than a 137 slope, it's just 7 units of slope measurement harder.
Click to expand...
You nailed it. The tougher course would play 1.27 times harder than a normal course for a bogey golfer (144/113 = 1.27). The easier would play 1.21 times tougher than normal (137/113). So an 18 on a normal course would get 22 on the 144 slope and 21 on the 137 slope.
 
The slope (the way I've always understood) is not necessarily how difficult one golf course is vs another. I think that part can get misunderstood. But it is more for how much more difficult that specific given course is for the bogey player vs the scratch player at the same course. A 69 rating is going to be easier than a 73 rating for both players. From there its then going to be determined how much more difficult each of those courses will be for the bogey player but only in relation to those ratings.

It is possible they may determine the bogey player will find it easier to shoot closer to the 73 rating on that 73r course than they would find it to shoot closer to the 69r rating on the easier 69r course. So the 69rated course could have a higher slope than the 73rated course.
And its the same logic for the courses in the OP where his 71r is at 144s but his 74r is at 134s. The 74 rated course is a harder course for both players but it was determined that the bogey player would find it a tad less difficult to shoot closer to the 74 than he would to the 71 of the easier course.

But we must also remember that while there are some hard facts involved in evaluating a golf course there is also some subjective opinion or judgment left up to interpretation of those doing the evaluating. And because its done by different people its never going to be so perfect at all. Not only is there error in human judgment from the same individuals who may evaluate a number of courses but then its also not the same individuals evaluating every course either. It cannot be without flaw. I would imagine there are courses with same rating/slope that would just not make sense if side by side. Or also courses that are similar side by side but with different rating/slope. But what can you do, its a pretty good system imo and is all we have.
 
I understand the idea of the slope now a lot better, and thanks for all the answers. I still don't understand how people come up with their ratings. What seems extra hard to me (trees, etc.) must not count as much as layout or green speeds. Since the PGA Tour was just at Torrey Pines I thought I'd look at it's course/slope rating. The championship tees at Torrey Pines South are rated at 78.2/144. The Kingwood CC Island course was my reference above at 74.2/134. When looking at a side by side GPS map comparison (at the same scale), the Island course looks significantly harder to me due to the amount of trees and fairway size. Not only are the fairways at the Island narrower overall, they are completely engulfed by trees, and there are only a handful of trees other than the course perimeter at Torrey Pines. And in almost every wooded area at Kingwood there is no walking into the woods to recover a ball. It's all 3-6 foot tall underbrush and marsh.

torreypineskingwoodcc_zpsd7f1c0ac.jpg
 
Firstly (if what I looked up is correct) T.P is 300 yards longer and depending just where, and how those extra yards are incorporated into the course may account for a lot and even more so for the bogey player.
I can see what you mean about the narrow tree crowded fw's not offering much at all in forgiving the bogey players errant shots.
But then as you look at T.P - I wouldn't exactly call those holes forgiving at all as half the course is bordering basically unplayable area. And than there is probably a known given for expected sustained winds along with the extra distance. Not to mention a possibility (i don't really know) of elevation changes. So do they have the two courses perfectly evaluated relative to each other? I couldn't say for sure. But I can certainly see the possibilities why they may be done fairly correctly.
 
Last edited:
rollin said:
The slope (the way I've always understood) is not necessarily how difficult one golf course is vs another. I think that part can get misunderstood. But it is more for how much more difficult that specific given course is for the bogey player vs the scratch player at the same course. A 69 rating is going to be easier than a 73 rating for both players. From there its then going to be determined how much more difficult each of those courses will be for the bogey player but only in relation to those ratings.
Click to expand...
This is such a great reminder. I find my home card to be freaking hard and my favorite course easier. Their slope ratings don't correlate to my feelings and I've kind of grumbled about the system. I bet your reminder provides the answer - I've never considered the slope ratings relative to each course rating, but instead have compared two slope ratings against each other.
 
This talk got me looking at other courses in my area and this is the 9 hole college course I started out learning the game on:

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.6542353,-95.1147027,1381a,20y,270h/data=!3m1!1e3

It doesn't even feel like the same game going from this course to the one above that I play. Not that I'm having less fun on the course I play at, but its nowhere near as forgiving as this course.
 
-CRW- said:
What are some of examples in a layout that would make a course harder for better players that wouldn't affect high handicappers as much? Would it be hazards that better players might reach, but high handicappers aren't expected to reach and by pass or clear with a second shot?
Click to expand...

From the USGA: "Although length of a course is still important, ten other factors come into focus with Slope. You're already familiar with a lot of them: width of fairways; height and difficulty of the rough; number and placement of bunkers, water hazards, and trees; and speed and contouring of greens."

So the greatest factor is length. Then the other factors come into play, easiest way to explain them is how much or how little room is there on the course to miss a shot. If there is lots of room to miss, the slope rating will be lower and if there isn't the slope rating will be higher.

Course rating is the score that a scratch golfer is expected to shoot. (about 20-25 percent of the time in the HC calculation)

A course or set of tees also has a bogie rating which is the score a bogie golfer is expected to shoot. The slope rating is determined from the course rating and bogie rating.

Thus Slope is a ratio of how a bogie golfer is expected to score in relation to a scratch golfer. The larger the slope of a course the larger the expected difference between a scratch golfer and a bogie golfer.
 
As you know from your posted pictures earlier, I came up with possible reasons as to why the T.P. course might be rated the way it is vs the Island course and I thought it made good sense. But now here is the island course vs my home course. They are rated nearly identical.
Island @ 74.2/134 and my course @ 74.2/131
Not only is the Island course about 7300 and mine at 7000 but just look at the fairways.
My course is not real easy. Got 150 bunkers, almost all holes are doglegs, and all elevated greens and at 7000 its not lacking distance but for them both to have almost the same exact ratings? something is flawed somewhere.:confused2:
Over all my course wont allow for one to just smack balls all over the place but will allow for some errant and/or less than real good shots for the bogey player and it seems to look like the "Island" course is not going to be even nearly as forgiving yet same rating?

I can see how for the scratch player it may play similar because they don't generally need the wider fairways anyway, but not for
the bogey player. He/she requires the extra room and just doesn't have it at the "Island". So only 3points difference in slope just doesn't seem to make sense when compared to each other.


hominy%202_zpsmtonlvqt.jpg

kingwood_zpszht5ble4.jpg
 
Last edited:
Spivey said:
Slope & Rating have to do with the course set up and layout, as well as what a 18 hcp would shoot as compared to what a 0 hcp would shoot at the course, based upon distance.
Interesting note - Slope Rating does not take into account how fast/undulating greens are. So take a course, increase the green speed to upwards of 13 stimpmeter, and nothing changes about the slope rating.
Click to expand...

Most golfers rarely have seen/played greens that stimp at 13. The PGA Tour stops average 10.5 on the Stimpmeter. I actually putt better on PGA Tour speed greens as the course I grew up on consistently ran about 10. Playing most of my golf now in California, I almost never see greens that run faster than 8-8.5, it's just not possible to get them faster than that with the climate here int he central valley or coast of California.
 
tahoebum said:
Most golfers rarely have seen/played greens that stimp at 13. The PGA Tour stops average 10.5 on the Stimpmeter. I actually putt better on PGA Tour speed greens as the course I grew up on consistently ran about 10. Playing most of my golf now in California, I almost never see greens that run faster than 8-8.5, it's just not possible to get them faster than that with the climate here int he central valley or coast of California.
Click to expand...

What my message is, is that the slope/rating do not change if playing conditions change, such as increases or decreases in green speed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Spivey said:
What my message is, is that the slope/rating do not change if playing conditions change, such as increases or decreases in green speed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Right on the money. The more likely you are to totally fail to hit the fairway or green, land in a hazard off the tee or around a green, or loose a ball in the rough or down a hill or embankment, the higher the rating.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top