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New Driver Shaft Study

Nippon Shafts
Well, that's not a study. That 1000 rpm difference was in one individual, whose results did not match the results as a whole. I'm not going in too much further, but that is not a study.
 
blugold said:
Well, that's not a study. That 1000 rpm difference was in one individual, whose results did not match the results as a whole. I'm not going in too much further, but that is not a study.
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The average of the results as a whole where approximately 800 rpms. So much closer to 1000 rpms than to the belief system that the shaft is for "fine tuning".

I loved the canned response though. The results don't match your belief system therefore the study is invalid.
 
-CRW- said:
The average of the results as a whole where approximately 800 rpms. So much closer to 1000 rpms than to the belief system that the shaft is for "fine tuning".

I loved the canned response though. The results don't match your belief system therefore the study is invalid.
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So every fitting I've been to and have watched from some really good fitters is find a head and loft the person uses, see what it does with whatever stock shaft is designed for the driver. The fitter then will make adjustments to either loft and/or lie if needed. Once they have this somewhat dialed in and are getting feedback from the golfer they use the shaft options to fine tune, dial in, whatever you want to call it.

In my Titleist Thursday fitting we stated with 10.5 d2 but spin was a little high for the launch we were seeing so a few shafts were changed then we dropped to the 9.5 head and same shafts and in bit heads numerous adjustments of the loft and lie. While the shots where playable the fitter wanted to get better so we went to the 9.5 d3 head and the shaft the I was hitting the best with the d2. Then after some loft and lie adjustments we used another shaft we didn't try in the d2 and on the first 5 shots we got exactly what we were looking for. We switched shafts a few times and loft/lie settings and the fitter and I agreed that the shaft we didn't try in the d2 was the best fit for my swing compared to the others

In the UST fitting Danny Le took same loft image in my current driver and we started there. He put in a shaft he figured would work beys for my swing based on information I gave him. As I hit balls and gave him feedback on what incas thinking and feeling he switched shafts just to see what difference it might make and for his benefit in future fittings. First shot with the second shaft and we were both sold on that being the better fit.
 
blugold said:
Well, that's not a study. That 1000 rpm difference was in one individual, whose results did not match the results as a whole. I'm not going in too much further, but that is not a study.
Click to expand...

I have my reasons that I think the test is worthless, and none of those reasons has anything to do with who performed the test. If someone finds it interesting and helpful, I think that's great.



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This is the old does the shaft make the difference or does the person's reaction to properties of the shaft make the difference.

Shaft to shaft not with the human element involved they have almost no effect on spin/launch etc.

Now introduce the human element and we react to certain things differently. Some of us feel certain things and it changes the way we do things others can change feel and go shaft to shaft and not notice any difference.

It is the shaft companies job to identify how "most" people react to certain properties. Which for the most part they do a fantastic job with this. That said there will always be an outlier person that reacts the opposite to what the shaft is made to do. It's not the shaft it is the human element.

You can argue it a bunch of different ways. I still say the head is far more important and the shaft is just a reactionary change for the golfer.

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c.a.eleric said:
I have my reasons that I think the test is worthless, and none of those reasons has anything to do with who performed the test. If someone finds it interesting and helpful, I think that's great.



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It is interesting. I don't think it's particularly useful but it is interesting.
-CRW- said:
The average of the results as a whole where approximately 800 rpms. So much closer to 1000 rpms than to the belief system that the shaft is for "fine tuning".

I loved the canned response though. The results don't match your belief system therefore the study is invalid.
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Of course this shaft testing reinforces the "fit a shaft for a head" belief. No argument there. I don't know how it displaces the "fine tune" thought process. But that's cool.
 
I read the source article. I for one love this sort of information gathering and objective approach. It provides data for the reader to digest and draw their own conclusions.

I personally didn't see how you can draw any conclusions from the results. In summary it eludes to the importance of getting fit and how different shafts and profiles provide different results for the player. The shaft and individual player will provide dynamic results so there likely will not be any pattern. Perhaps a more static test would have garnered more definitive testing results.
 
lightningbolt44 said:
This is the old does the shaft make the difference or does the person's reaction to properties of the shaft make the difference.

Shaft to shaft not with the human element involved they have almost no effect on spin/launch etc.

Now introduce the human element and we react to certain things differently. Some of us feel certain things and it changes the way we do things others can change feel and go shaft to shaft and not notice any difference.

It is the shaft companies job to identify how "most" people react to certain properties. Which for the most part they do a fantastic job with this. That said there will always be an outlier person that reacts the opposite to what the shaft is made to do. It's not the shaft it is the human element.

You can argue it a bunch of different ways. I still say the head is far more important and the shaft is just a reactionary change for the golfer.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
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Very well put sir.
 
lightningbolt44 said:
This is the old does the shaft make the difference or does the person's reaction to properties of the shaft make the difference.

Shaft to shaft not with the human element involved they have almost no effect on spin/launch etc.

Now introduce the human element and we react to certain things differently. Some of us feel certain things and it changes the way we do things others can change feel and go shaft to shaft and not notice any difference.

It is the shaft companies job to identify how "most" people react to certain properties. Which for the most part they do a fantastic job with this. That said there will always be an outlier person that reacts the opposite to what the shaft is made to do. It's not the shaft it is the human element.

You can argue it a bunch of different ways. I still say the head is far more important and the shaft is just a reactionary change for the golfer.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
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I'll agree to disagree but very well put. Except the head being more important...with that I am in complete agreement.
 
arydolphin said:
No, but also someone saying that the head matters most goes right against fitters like Club Champion, where you get fitted into a shaft first and head second. In the end, they find a head/shaft combination that works best for you, but they start out with finding out what shaft works best first.
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Interesting, as that's not how my Club Champion fitting went. After some talk about what i was looking for, we started with club heads first, then after finding club heads i hit pretty well, we started looking at different shafts. Target end result (head/shaft combo that works best) was the same, obviously.

As to the "study" or priority of importance. I think the head is the most important, but also believe the shaft can make a difference (it did for me), because finding the shaft which worked best with my swing, without forcing me to adjust my swing to the properties of the shaft, was a big deal. Can I adjust my swing to the properties of a shaft? Sure, up to a point, but if it's not my natural swing, it's going to bring more variables (as in more swing variables) into play.
 
Rambler said:
As to the "study" or priority of importance.
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Just for clarification, I didn't intend for this to be an argument over what was more important. I posted it because the importance of the right shaft is always so belittled here, and I wanted to set the record straight. I think real fittings finding the perfect head/shaft combo (or the lack thereof) is one of a few critical components to why golfers/indexes are not getting better (despite radical advances in technology).
 
-CRW- said:
Just for clarification, I didn't intend for this to be an argument over what was more important. I posted it because the importance of the right shaft is always so belittled here, and I wanted to set the record straight. I think real fittings finding the perfect head/shaft combo (or the lack thereof) is one of a few critical components to why golfers/indexes are not getting better (despite radical advances in technology).
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Enough already. The importance has never been "belittled" but your constant snipes get tiresome. We strongly believe in the importance of fitting and finding the right shaft.
We have multiple shaft events every year bringing THPers right to the source to get educated on the values of golf shafts.
We have had (or about to have) every single shaft manufacturer on THP Radio talking about the importance of shafts.
We give away shafts on THP almost every single month for review.
We ran an educational series weekly for over two months in the THP Classroom on the basics of shaft education and construction.
We brought 3 people on our own dime to a steel manufacturing facility.
We have test shafts of every major brand on the back of the THP Tour Van as well as a launch monitor so REAL people can test shafts for themselves.

Find anyplace else that does this on the shaft and I will buy you any shaft you want in the world.
 
Don't assume when I say here (THP) that I mean you (JB). I posted quotes from members that belittle shafts on the regular and none of them belonged to you. No reason to get upset.

I am disappointed that sharing good information is considering "sniping". If someone doesn't like the information, they can choose to believe differently.
 
Rambler said:
Interesting, as that's not how my Club Champion fitting went.
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me either. mine was head first, then trying different shafts. i wonder how much of a standard process there is to the cc philosophy, and how much is store-specific.
 
-CRW- said:
Just for clarification, I didn't intend for this to be an argument over what was more important. I posted it because the importance of the right shaft is always so belittled here, and I wanted to set the record straight. I think real fittings finding the perfect head/shaft combo (or the lack thereof) is one of a few critical components to why golfers/indexes are not getting better (despite radical advances in technology).
Click to expand...

I think the club head versus shaft is a natural tangent, though, when we look at information/data on driver and/or driver shaft performance. There are multiple components which can come into play. Heck, certain grips "seem" to help me get better performance. Yes, I know, that's all mental, but it's another component of a club for me, which can impact the feel of my connection between the swing and my club. Please, God, don't let anyone tell me one hosel may be better than another as well, because then I'll just lose it. :wink:

I do think detailed fitting can make a difference for golfers, though the potential impact on golfer/indexes is for another thread.
 
c.a.eleric said:
me either. mine was head first, then trying different shafts. i wonder how much of a standard process there is to the cc philosophy, and how much is store-specific.
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My fitting at CC was also head first.

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c.a.eleric said:
me either. mine was head first, then trying different shafts. i wonder how much of a standard process there is to the cc philosophy, and how much is store-specific.
Click to expand...

Mine was at the Houston location in 2013 and they focused primarily on shaft. The fitter asked me what heads I liked or thought wanted to play. We tried a few mostly for feel and then worked on finding the shaft to get the numbers as close to ideal for me/my swing at that time.
 
c.a.eleric said:
me either. mine was head first, then trying different shafts. i wonder how much of a standard process there is to the cc philosophy, and how much is store-specific.
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Interesting, I didn't know that it differed for others. Always good to learn something.
 
arydolphin said:
Interesting, I didn't know that it differed for others. Always good to learn something.
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fwiw i really liked the guy who fit me a couple years ago and have thought about going back now that i feel my swing has improved somewhat. but i've heard horror stories from a few different "better" players who went to the cc here in town and were encouraged to go with gear that was a really bad fit for them.
 
-CRW- said:
Mine was at the Houston location in 2013 and they focused primarily on shaft. The fitter asked me what heads I liked or thought wanted to play. We tried a few mostly for feel and then worked on finding the shaft to get the numbers as close to ideal for me/my swing at that time.
Click to expand...

to the theme of this thread, the fitter had me hit my gamer first and saw that launch was too low and spin was way too low, and also that path was too inside out. so we started with a different head to bring up launch and spin, then went to shafts to help the launch and spin and also path. so my experience could have been quite a bit driven by my particular issues at the time. who knows.
 
-CRW- said:
Don't assume when I say here (THP) that I mean you (JB). I posted quotes from members that belittle shafts on the regular and none of them belonged to you. No reason to get upset.

I am disappointed that sharing good information is considering "sniping". If someone doesn't like the information, they can choose to believe differently.
Click to expand...

I have never said that the shaft is not important. Or that the shaft cannot have a big impact on a club. I continue to believe that the clubhead is the most important component of the golf club. Saying, "I want to make this clubhead work for me, so I need to find a shaft that optimizes this head's performance", is back asswards to me. If it has allowed you to enjoy golf, great! Enjoy golf! It is not how I would want to get fit.
 
c.a.eleric said:
me either. mine was head first, then trying different shafts. i wonder how much of a standard process there is to the cc philosophy, and how much is store-specific.
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Ok, this will be getting well away from the topic, but quickly... I hope there isn't a "set" approach, because each golfer is different. I would hope that a fitter is good enough, that after talking to the client about where they are, and what they want, and seeing some swings, that they have a good idea on where to go, first. Just my opinion, anyways.
 
c.a.eleric said:
to the theme of this thread, the fitter had me hit my gamer first and saw that launch was too low and spin was way too low, and also that path was too inside out. so we started with a different head to bring up launch and spin, then went to shafts to help the launch and spin and also path. so my experience could have been quite a bit driven by my particular issues at the time. who knows.
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That's the first time I've ever heard that a shaft could actually help with your swing path. That's crazy to think about.
 
These tests are interesting, but I've seen enough swings and heard enough stories about what a shaft is supposed to do (only to see the complete opposite) to believe that we are all unique individuals who benefit from a better understanding of a product, but should conduct our own testing before we jump on a trend.

arydolphin said:
No, but also someone saying that the head matters most goes right against fitters like Club Champion, where you get fitted into a shaft first and head second. In the end, they find a head/shaft combination that works best for you, but they start out with finding out what shaft works best first.
Click to expand...

Different strokes I guess. In the same week of swinging, I went from release to release from the same company and had to change shafts because of the timing into the head. I guess it works for Club Champion, but it sure doesn't seem to work for me.
 
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