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Taylormede Sales drop 28%. Is golf on the decline?

Canadan said:
It's the beauty of waiting a year. Covert 2.0, Bertha Alpha, OptiForce, SLDR.... All can be had for a song.

Those who aren't all about latest and greatest can get a bargain bag EASY. That's not killing golf. It's glorious.
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BINGO. Which is why I don't buy the argument that longer release cycles are a benefit to the consumer. In the current market - that logic would hurt the consumer. To boot- TM and Callaway do the best job of rewarding consumers with deals to upgrade IMO. Hence- I feel like all of these things should help golf - not hurt it.


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Wicked Cool Bearded Man said:
BINGO. Which is why I don't buy the argument that longer release cycles are a benefit to the consumer. In the current market - that logic would hurt the consumer. To boot- TM and Callaway do the best job of rewarding consumers with deals to upgrade IMO. Hence- I feel like all of these things should help golf - not hurt it.


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The only people who then get hurt and those who are about resale value (another argument I don't understand).

End of the day - companies can't win haha.
 
Golf Ghost said:
The only people who then get hurt and those who are about resale value (another argument I don't understand).

End of the day - companies can't win haha.
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Exactly. Their premise is based on value not worth. Value is what an arbitrary body would price something at. Worth is much more subjective and can be manipulated.


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Golf Ghost said:
The only people who then get hurt and those who are about resale value (another argument I don't understand).

End of the day - companies can't win haha.
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Oh, I'd say a couple companies are winning hahaha -- Maybe not TaylorMade right now, but certainly Callaway..

And those who hate their model can go to a company like Ping, who releases once every two years -- Except for the part where they don't at all, but hey, at least it's presented that way.
 
rollin said:
You know something. I wonder if all the adjustable stuff really is necessary anyway. Sure to those unique in the sport such as many here on THP but you (we)are not the norm. The norm and is also the majority imo is the average person out there who dosnt even get a fitting nor understand all the adjustments. I wonder how many people who get into casual golf (and its a ton) just find it all too confusing. I been golfing for over 25 years on and off and until only a few years ago (and in combination with participating here) did I even understand a fitting. Prior to that I did like so many people do. I just baught what I thought felt good and appealed to me. I mean millions of clubs have been baught off the rack for many years. I wouldn't even have known what to do with the adjustments of todays drivers. You just bought a driver you liked and didnt worry about or even consider adjustments.

I think that how most people buy clubs. Even now that I am so much more knowledgeable about the whole thing (loft and path bias and stuff) I still wouldn't know what to do with the weights and crap. All this stuff is just not for the average joe who is not more uniquely involved in golf like many you/us here. That average joe is a huge amount of people. He just wants simple. All this adjusting stuff just adds confusion to an already difficult and involved golf swing. Not only does he find himself bying expensive clubs but now he doesn't know what to do with them and how to set them up without help and further expense. It becomes a daunting task filled with uncertainty and quaetions and concerns for something that's suppose to be simple fun. I don't even want one with weights and crap cause I don't want to bother anylizing it all and getting it all set and maybe seeking asisitance doing it. And that statement is coming from one who is actually more involved than the average person. I just dont want to add any that crap and/or stress.. Not really my idea of golf fun. They are ignorant to it all relatively speaking and if that stuff is something I cant be bothered with, why the heck would they? It all sounds and seems very simple to you but remember most of us here are not the norm. Its not simple to them and its a turn off to them imo.

I just wonder how much if any of that has hurt club slaes and even interst in the sport. There always talk of making golf easier, more simple, less difficult and more enjoyable so more will play. Well than , whats so darn enjoyable about adding confusion and stress from honest ignorance just for purchasing a driver. In a way imo it makes it all that much more difficult. IDK really but something to chew on.
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blugold said:
Here's something to consider...

Nike has 3 different driver heads out right now. Each one of those 3 has 15 different loft and face angle setting. All because of that adjustability.

That doesn't happen 4 years ago. One head, 15 different options. 4 years ago, some of those 15 options would have not been made because of inventory considerations.
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Blue - your post is simple to understand by itself but I honestly am not sure of its (or your) intended logic of it as a response to my post. I can kind of look at it in different ways. Not sure if its purpose was to further add to my post or in a way dispute it. :) Perhaps my brain is just not firing on all cylinders right now :) and may be you can clear it up.
 
rollin said:
Blue - your post is simple to understand by itself but I honestly am not sure of its (or your) intended logic of it as a response to my post. I can kind of look at it in different ways. Not sure if its purpose was to further add to my post or in a way dispute it. :) Perhaps my brain is just not firing on all cylinders right now :) and may be you can clear it up.
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Your first few sentences you said that all of the adjustability isn't really adding benefit to the game.
 
blugold said:
Your first few sentences you said that all of the adjustability isn't really adding benefit to the game.
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Thanks and I think I know why I couldn't figure out your response. I think you misunderstood my post. I don't believe I ever implied it doesn't add any benefit. I only implied the question of "is it really necessary?" but only with the thought that just perhaps its made things harder by making it more difficult and more involved than it needs to be for the average joe casusual golfer. That's all quite different from stating none of it has any benefit. It would have a benefit for those who understand it all and want to be more involved in those things. But its quite possible that's more for a unique population of golfers and not the majority norm. For very many it may just be too involved, too confusing , and adding work and efforts they just don't have the will and time for.

Add those 15 settings for loft and angles and also combine it with replaceable weights, and moving weight positions and it can be a giant confusing puzzle and quite the daunting task. its not that all this stuff wouldn't be beneficial to anyone but its perhaps just much too daunting a task to go through. As I mentioned in the post, so many people through the years simply bought clubs off the rack (and still do) and were ignorant to fittings and just bought what they liked to swing and look at with minimal knowledge if any at all and consisting of maybe loft and maybe length (if even that) or much of anything at all. Plenty people still buy that way now. The norm for the masses with purchasing clubs imo is not fittings, and settings and etc,,, but is much more about buying with an uneducated and honest ignorance. All this stuff on the driver, (the 15 settings and combined with weights and weight shifts), while beneficial given the knowledge and time and effort, just simply may not be practical and may be much too overwhelming, much too involved, too stressful, and much too far from simple for that average joe casual golfer. He just wants a new driver to call his own and play golf, not a scientific experiment to figure out. heck, most people don't even take but a lesson or two, and nor do they get involved with fittings and such. Millions of rounds of golf are played by such people and very many clubs have been sold through the years with that mentality. Its quite possible all this gadgetry (beneficial or not) has now overcomplicated the whole procedure for them to the point of a turn off.

as I mentioned, I don't want to start tinkering with weights and weight shifts and I only tinker with loft/angle settings by default because its on my driver and I also have a better understanding of it all. But again I (we) are unique in that regard. I can picture those honestly ignorant and naïve to "all" these things and wanting to buy a driver and are just dumbfounded "what the heck do I do with/about all this stuff?"
It imo perhaps just adds an entire element they really don't want to take on. Its just that perhaps its not simple enough anymore and just might be a turn off.
 
rollin said:
Thanks and I think I know why I couldn't figure out your response. I think you misunderstood my post. I don't believe I ever implied it doesn't add any benefit. I only implied the question of "is it really necessary?" but only with the thought that just perhaps its made things harder by making it more difficult and more involved than it needs to be for the average joe casusual golfer. That's all quite different from stating none of it has any benefit. It would have a benefit for those who understand it all and want to be more involved in those things. But its quite possible that's more for a unique population of golfers and not the majority norm. For very many it may just be too involved, too confusing , and adding work and efforts they just don't have the will and time for.

Add those 15 settings for loft and angles and also combine it with replaceable weights, and moving weight positions and it can be a giant confusing puzzle and quite the daunting task. its not that all this stuff wouldn't be beneficial to anyone but its perhaps just much too daunting a task to go through. As I mentioned in the post, so many people through the years simply bought clubs off the rack (and still do) and were ignorant to fittings and just bought what they liked to swing and look at with minimal knowledge if any at all and consisting of maybe loft and maybe length (if even that) or much of anything at all. Plenty people still buy that way now. The norm for the masses with purchasing clubs imo is not fittings, and settings and etc,,, but is much more about buying with an uneducated and honest ignorance. All this stuff on the driver, (the 15 settings and combined with weights and weight shifts), while beneficial given the knowledge and time and effort, just simply may not be practical and may be much too overwhelming, much too involved, too stressful, and much too far from simple for that average joe casual golfer. He just wants a new driver to call his own and play golf, not a scientific experiment to figure out. heck, most people don't even take but a lesson or two, and nor do they get involved with fittings and such. Millions of rounds of golf are played by such people and very many clubs have been sold through the years with that mentality. Its quite possible all this gadgetry (beneficial or not) has now overcomplicated the whole procedure for them to the point of a turn off.

as I mentioned, I don't want to start tinkering with weights and weight shifts and I only tinker with loft/angle settings by default because its on my driver and I also have a better understanding of it all. But again I (we) are unique in that regard. I can picture those honestly ignorant and naïve to "all" these things and wanting to buy a driver and are just dumbfounded "what the heck do I do with/about all this stuff?"
It imo perhaps just adds an entire element they really don't want to take on. Its just that perhaps its not simple enough anymore and just might be a turn off.
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I'm old school and think if you go through a proper fitting and get all the numbers, there is no need for an adjustable club. I've owned a couple and they were ok but nothing special. More than likely, many will make too many changes over and over and then be all screwed up. Great for a fitting but not needed once you get things set. JMO of course.
 
HoosierGolfer said:
I'm old school and think if you go through a proper fitting and get all the numbers, there is no need for an adjustable club. I've owned a couple and they were ok but nothing special. More than likely, many will make too many changes over and over and then be all screwed up. Great for a fitting but not needed once you get things set. JMO of course.
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It's a benefit to fitters. Instead of having 10 heads for one brand, they can fit using a single head. Once you're fit, you leave it alone unless a swing change necessitates a change. I think that it's only a detriment to tinkerers who refuse to go get fitted and try to change the head around for each round instead of finding what works best and sticking with it.
 
Bullitt5339 said:
It's a benefit to fitters. Instead of having 10 heads for one brand, they can fit using a single head. Once you're fit, you leave it alone unless a swing change necessitates a change. I think that it's only a detriment to tinkerers who refuse to go get fitted and try to change the head around for each round instead of finding what works best and sticking with it.
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The male ego is the number 1 killer of good golf...........so they will tinker.
 
HoosierGolfer said:
The male ego is the number 1 killer of good golf...........so they will tinker.
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I would actually bet that most consumers don't adjust the club at all after purchase.
 
Not only are their sales dropping, market share is too. Callaway is absolutely drumming them right now


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Bullitt5339 said:
I think that it's only a detriment to tinkerers who refuse to go get fitted and try to change the head around for each round instead of finding what works best and sticking with it.
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And imo it may also be not just a detriment but possibly a deterrent (as implied in my posts) to those who don't really understand it all. Not that those refuse to go and get fitted but just that they are ignorant to doing so nor do they really have any desire or need to get that involved.
I'll bet that through the years there have been far more golf clubs sold off the rack as is and of both new and used variety vs the fitted method. Right, wrong, or indifferent its just not imo in the cards for most people. Remember you and probably your circle of golf people as well as many here on THP are not most people but are imo (as I keep repeating) unique. As huge as the population of educated consumers there might be, there are and always were very many more who are not. And even many who are educated and know better still chose not (as you indicate) to get that involved.

I mentioned earlier that I don't want to get involved with weights and weight positioning. I just don't wish to add that "problem" even if I understand it better. So I can see how one who doesn't understand much at all about the hosel adjustments and also on top of that the weights , where the whole thing is just a stress and concern for what to do and a bother that they are even forced to try to find out and research it or seek assistance with it. As beneficial all this stuff may be it has sort of imo placed a burden on a large pool of consumers who just might wish otherwise. I think many people just want the more simplicity as it once was. Perhaps just shaft flex and determining a desired loft and that's about it.
 
One buying something with adjustability does not have to be fit or adjust it. Its an option. So the idea that it could hinder sales is not really accurate, especially when viewing the amount that is sold now compared to just before the release of adjustability with less golfers playing now than then.
 
JB said:
One buying something with adjustability does not have to be fit or adjust it. Its an option. So the idea that it could hinder sales is not really accurate, especially when viewing the amount that is sold now compared to just before the release of adjustability with less golfers playing now than then.
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No it doesn't "have to be" fit. And my theory was never meant to imply it is the sole reason for any drop in sales for TM. Was really just something to consider for just about any company that perhaps it could create some negative purchasing experiences for some people. I can see how uncertainty or ignorance towards some things may perhaps cause one to endure some efforts that's simply undesirable. That being said, I would put more stock in my other possibility where as a specific demographic of consumer is just no longer there.
 
Taylormede Sales drop 28%. Is golf on the decline?

I think they're losing share to others. Titleist seems to have expanded share with the 915s, Callaway kicking butt in woods and irons. Local GG tells me Nike is their top selling iron right now. TM just not moving well.

Industry may be lagging, but TM may be lagging behind the industry right now.
 
Just a few years ago I was a huge consumer of Taylormade. The problem for me has been one of poor marketing. I I loved the TP Black and Red balls. They changed to TP3 and TP5 but the design was similar enough that I stayed with them. Followed that up with only one ball Lethal. Which of the previous models did that follow? I never figured it out and switched brands. I loved their Superfast Driver and thought the next couple in the amateur line (2.0 and Rbz) where a nice follow through but last year with the move in the center of gravity left me with no forgiving option. I switched brands. I loved my Burner plus irons but now that I have improved somewhat I looked for something new. I wanted to go with TM but for the life of me couldn't keep up with the multiple lines of irons. Rocket blades rocket blade HL rocket blade max speed blades some were blue some were green some were yellow but who in the heck they were designed for I never could tell so once again I switched brands.
 
caeleric said:
it's so multi-faceted, that i think it's tough to nail down one reason.

for tmag, i think people may be getting fatigued by the constant barrage of "best ever/longest ever" drivers that are all $400 or more. i'm not really sure what to think about all their other equipment. i think they made some really nice irons up until the rocketballz/rocketbladez campaign, and then they went in a direction that felt like it was heavy into gi and sgi. maybe that's just my perception, though. but i think the main reason is everybody else is stepping up their game, and they don't have the massive advertising/marketing/sponsorship costs that tmag does. maybe the adams acquisition hurt them financially?

as far as whether golf is on the decline, maybe. but at least here in orlando, i haven't seen any drop in the number of people on the course when i go play. in general, i think golf has gotten too expensive, and courses have gotten too long and too difficult. pretty and high-end does not have to equal difficult. advances in club equipment to offer higher launch, more distance, more spin around the greens, etc are all being negated by difficult course design. i don't buy the length of rounds argument, or that millenials have shorter attention spans. i think it's cost and difficulty.
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Well said. I, for one, have had enough rounds where I am scrambling for par on every hole due to length of the holes. I hit about 225 off the tee and maybe 165-170 off the deck (average). That puts me around 400 yards in 2 shots if I hit both well. Any par 4 over 400 is a definite 3 shot hole for me. I love a course with 375 par 4 holes, but nobody has the ego to set up their courses like that anymore.
 
...no they are producing less. Some of their sales numbers are sales to retailers so less means that they are not flooding retailers shelves with their product.
 
UncleDanger said:
Well said. I, for one, have had enough rounds where I am scrambling for par on every hole due to length of the holes. I hit about 225 off the tee and maybe 165-170 off the deck (average). That puts me around 400 yards in 2 shots if I hit both well. Any par 4 over 400 is a definite 3 shot hole for me. I love a course with 375 par 4 holes, but nobody has the ego to set up their courses like that anymore.
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Aren't there tee box options you can choose from?
 
Tedfroop said:
...no they are producing less. Some of their sales numbers are sales to retailers so less means that they are not flooding retailers shelves with their product.
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BTW...Taylormade doesn't make the retailers take the product. The retails choose to flood their own shelves with taylormade.
 
I was in Dicks last week picking up golf balls and they had 3 racks full of TM drivers and woods but only a small display for Cobra, Cleveland, Nike and the others. It was pretty sad and disgusting to be honest, but I would say they really overbought on TM, so they're trying to limit other options until the SLDR and Jetspeed stuff is off the shelves.
 
Bullitt5339 said:
I was in Dicks last week picking up golf balls and they had 3 racks full of TM drivers and woods but only a small display for Cobra, Cleveland, Nike and the others. It was pretty sad and disgusting to be honest, but I would say they really overbought on TM, so they're trying to limit other options until the SLDR and Jetspeed stuff is off the shelves.
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TM is the #1 selling driver. How is a company whose main focus isn't even on golf "disgusting" for stocking said brand? If they are having trouble selling TM there, they aren't going to have much success selling anyone else either other than maybe Callaway
 
cbaker2882 said:
TM is the #1 selling driver. How is a company whose main focus isn't even on golf "disgusting" for stocking said brand? If they are having trouble selling TM there, they aren't going to have much success selling anyone else either other than maybe Callaway
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I will have to take a picture for you. Want a Cleveland RTX 2.0 wedge? Yeah, we have one 60* in stock. Want a Cobra Fly-Z hybrid? We have one in stiff flex. Want a Taylormade Jetspeed driver? Of course not, obviously noone ever did or they would have had a product cycle of over 90 days, but no problem there, we still have 40 of them on the rack beside the 25 SLDRs and 25 SLDR S's. The rack of Callaway was nearly empty, so someone has been buying those. The Cobra rack was picked pretty good, same with Nike. But there were Taylormade drivers as far as the eye could see, and most were not from the current line.

I know this isn't a TM problem specifically, but when you have 40 brand new Jetspeed drivers that you can't give away, there's a problem.
 
Bullitt5339 said:
I will have to take a picture for you. Want a Cleveland RTX 2.0 wedge? Yeah, we have one 60* in stock. Want a Cobra Fly-Z hybrid? We have one in stiff flex. Want a Taylormade Jetspeed driver? Of course not, obviously noone ever did or they would have had a product cycle of over 90 days, but no problem there, we still have 40 of them on the rack beside the 25 SLDRs and 25 SLDR S's.

I know this isn't a TM problem specifically, but when you have 40 brand new Jetspeed drivers that you can't give away, there's a problem.
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Yea I mean Dicks Sporting Goods has always been terrible for golf equipment. But it's also not a golf store. And to be completely honest, I don't remember ever hearing about or seeing a commercial for the Jetspeed line. TM marketed horribly, and Dicks clearly bought too much of it. Oddly enough, it seemed to be a decently popular item on tour. Kaymer used one for a while. I can see the sad part, because it was pretty evident that it was a flop and it caused stores to over purchase...but I guess I just don't understand having disgust for it. The only thing I've ever stepped foot in a Dicks Sporting goods to buy for golf were tees and maybe golf balls.
 
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