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USGA Course Rating Definitions - Need Refinement?

Canadan said:
And I agree with that. However if my established handicap from 6,500 yards is a 2, and I go play a friendly game with my friends at a course that has a 7,500 yard tee, my handicap either remains a 2, or moves up to a maximum of 3 (depending on the course). I used this example yesterday. Being that I am now well outside my ability to comfortably hit greens in regulation, how is the handicap system working for me?
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doesn't work for a mid capper either. i gain 1-2 strokes going from our whites(6100is to 6300ish) to the tips (400ish extra yards). Guys i play with who are mid cappers (who maybe at the 210 or less distance) are only getting the same when going back from where they would play based on tee it forward to where our entire group plays.

our group compensates an extra 2 strokes for going back to the tips for our stabbleford games.
 
emart2173 said:
doesn't work for a mid capper either. i gain 1-2 strokes going from our whites(6100is to 6300ish) to the tips (400ish extra yards). Guys i play with who are mid cappers (who maybe at the 210 or less distance) are only getting the same when going back from where they would play based on tee it forward to where our entire group plays.

our group compensates an extra 2 strokes for going back to the tips for our stabbleford games.
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That is does not work is my biggest gripe.

I'm not in here claiming people should play from way back, I'm simply stating the handicap system does not allow for it. I'll ALWAYS encourage tee it forward.
 
I love playing the back tees from time to time. I have a group of friends, that range from scratch to 15 handicappers that always insist we play the back tees when we play. I don't know if it's they are glutton for punishment or just enjoy playing the full course but we play back there. These are also quick players so timing or slow play is never in doubt. Amazingly, I would say more times than not I end up shooting right around my handicap. Is it because I concentrated more or it took driving through fairways out of the equitation, I don't know. But I do enjoy hitting more drives and mid to longer irons into greens for a change. Do I need more strokes when I play the back tees? I'd take 'em if I got 'em but in the end I usually play about the same either way.
 
Nate said:
I love playing the back tees from time to time. I have a group of friends, that range from scratch to 15 handicappers that always insist we play the back tees when we play. I don't know if it's they are glutton for punishment or just enjoy playing the full course but we play back there. These are also quick players so timing or slow play is never in doubt. Amazingly, I would say more times than not I end up shooting right around my handicap. Is it because I concentrated more or it took driving through fairways out of the equitation, I don't know. But I do enjoy hitting more drives and mid to longer irons into greens for a change. Do I need more strokes when I play the back tees? I'd take 'em if I got 'em but in the end I usually play about the same either way.
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How far are the back tees at your course Nate?
 
Nate said:
6,400 white and 6,800 back. But I've played courses as long as 7,400 before (not often).
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You hit the ball a pretty long way. I think 6,800 is still in or relatively close to your tee it forward tees. How have you done from 7,400? Feel like you could have used a couple extra strokes? I know I would.
 
Canadan said:
You hit the ball a pretty long way. I think 6,800 is still in or relatively close to your tee it forward tees. How have you done from 7,400? Feel like you could have used a couple extra strokes? I know I would.
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Goes both ways, had a few good days and a few off days. The 7,400 course was wide open as it was a new development so didn't have to worry about OB or hazards very much.

Interesting discussion and I don't have a good answer for you on what to do or how to solve.
 
I'm just curious, but how often would you say that players play 1,000 to 1,500 yards outside of their normal yardage? If the handicap system is working 95% of the time (when people are playing from the correct tee boxes and in), why is it so necessary to overhaul the entire system just so short-hitters can play from 7,000 yards and be competitive 10 times a year, or however many times they play in tournaments like that?
 
Mulligan9111 said:
I'm just curious, but how often would you say that players play 1,000 to 1,500 yards outside of their normal yardage? If the handicap system is working 95% of the time (when people are playing from the correct tee boxes and in), why is it so necessary to overhaul the entire system just so short-hitters can play from 7,000 yards and be competitive 10 times a year, or however many times they play in tournaments like that?
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Doesn't matter if the handicap fails for 10 rounds out of 100 in a year, if those 10 rounds are 100% of your tourneys. It means short hitters can never compete unless they put in 20 rounds from the tourney tees before hand.
 
Mulligan9111 said:
I'm just curious, but how often would you say that players play 1,000 to 1,500 yards outside of their normal yardage? If the handicap system is working 95% of the time (when people are playing from the correct tee boxes and in), why is it so necessary to overhaul the entire system just so short-hitters can play from 7,000 yards and be competitive 10 times a year, or however many times they play in tournaments like that?
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Why does it have to be 1,000 yards? This is a problem at 400-500 yards. it just happens to be magnified and much more obvious at 1,000 yards.
 
Canadan said:
Why does it have to be 1,000 yards? This is a problem at 400-500 yards. it just happens to be magnified and much more obvious at 1,000 yards.
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Okay then, how often does this happen at 500 yards?
 
Mulligan9111 said:
Okay then, how often does this happen at 500 yards?
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At my course, often. Guys play back to establish caps there because they know if their handicap is established from their tee it forward tees, they aren't going to have a shot in any of the tournaments.

I can't speak for the nationwide experience, obviously.
 
Dave Alvarado said:
Doesn't matter if the handicap fails for 10 rounds out of 100 in a year, if those 10 rounds are 100% of your tourneys. It means short hitters can never compete unless they put in 20 rounds from the tourney tees before hand.
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Then that falls squarely on the "tournament" player for not preparing himself for these tournaments.
 
Canadan said:
At my course, often. Guys play back to establish caps there because they know if their handicap is established from their tee it forward tees, they aren't going to have a shot in any of the tournaments.

I can't speak for the nationwide experience, obviously.
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I would argue that if they were worried about being able to be competitive in tournaments, they SHOULD play from those tees often. Not just to establish a handicap, but to practice playing from that length.
 
Mulligan9111 said:
Then that falls squarely on the "tournament" player for not preparing himself for these tournaments.
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Or it's on the USGA to improve their handicap system.

Mulligan9111 said:
I would argue that if they were worried about being able to be competitive in tournaments, they SHOULD play from those tees often. Not just to establish a handicap, but to practice playing from that length.
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So forget tee it forward? Why can't they have both? You're arguing what people should be doing. I'm arguing that the system should accommodate wherever they play.
 
Mulligan9111 said:
Then that falls squarely on the "tournament" player for not preparing himself for these tournaments.
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So wait, if I want to try my hand at a tournament at my club but normally play recreationally, your solution is "tough, you should have prepared"?

That seems like an artificial division to me, cutting the world into tournament and non-tournament players. What if I want to have a friendly skins game with Bob on Sunday afternoon, but he's a "tournament player" and has set his handicap from the tips even though we're short hitters. He'll destroy me either way--we play from the whites, his handicap is artificially inflated. We play from the tips, my handicap is too low. Are you really going to argue that's a fair and working system?
 
Canadan said:
Or it's on the USGA to improve their handicap system.



So forget tee it forward? Why can't they have both? You're arguing what people should be doing. I'm arguing that the system should accommodate wherever they play.
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Not what I said at all. If these guys are going to be playing in a lot of events which force them to play from tees that are 500 yards further back then they are used to, why shouldn't they practice playing from back there?
 
Dave Alvarado said:
So wait, if I want to try my hand at a tournament at my club but normally play recreationally, your solution is "tough, you should have prepared"?

That seems like an artificial division to me, cutting the world into tournament and non-tournament players. What if I want to have a friendly skins game with Bob on Sunday afternoon, but he's a "tournament player" and has set his handicap from the tips even though we're short hitters. He'll destroy me either way--we play from the whites, his handicap is artificially inflated. We play from the tips, my handicap is too low. Are you really going to argue that's a fair and working system?
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I would think that if you wanted to try your hand at a tournament that you should PREPARE for that tournament, rather than just show up and expect to be able to compete without any sort of preparation.

If you are going to have a friendly skins game, then you should be able to come up your own handicaps between you and your playing partners.
 
I've spent the better part of a day and half reading this entire thread, post for post. Its been wildly entertaining to me and I have learned some things through out. So I see a lot of chatter about moving back and moving forward..course familiarity things like that. My home course plays just over 6700 from the tips, rates at 70.1/126 IIRC. So thats the base yardage/rating/Slope for me. I have an example that pretty much fits in to this. At the 2013 Outing at Reunion I played the Tradition Course from the Tips, its over 75xx 76.7/147, at that time I was pretty much the same cap I am now (4.5). First time I had ever seen the place and shot an 85 and my diff was 6.4, so within 2 adjusted shots of my cap. I played it the next day from one set of tees up, i think they played at just under 7000, like 69 and some change, 72.6/142. I shot a 79 and my diff was 5.1, so basically I shot my cap. So based off my experince the GHIN system does pick up for the distance difference. My first round the scratch par was 77, I shot an 85. The second round scratch par was 73, I shot 79. 8 Worse and 6 Worse than the scratch par, so I as a rounded up 5 Capper would have been with 1-2 adjusted shots each round of the scratch golfer using what I have learned from Rule 3-5 (assuming I am applying it correctly). If I am way off base, please say so, because I will confess to not being an expert at this.

I get what Dan is getting at. Hes looking for a way for someone to be able to step back a set of tees and the players handicap to adjust to more fair number for that player. What he is saying is that the system doesn't account enough for a person playing back that doesnt hit the ball to the bogey golfer number. I get that. But I would say that the system does account for that, just not enough. It is a bit of an aged average. But I'm not sure that it isn't fairly close. I've played a lot of golf, with a lot of guys and watched a lot guys hit balls on the range (not as many of some here) but there are not a lot of guys hitting it 250. I would venture a guess that there are more hitting it 210 than hitting it 250. And there is a lot more people playing bogey golf and worse than playing single digit golf. At my home course I've watched a lot people tee off on the first hole and it only plays 330 from the middle tee and I see a lot guys hit driver and just get inside the 100 yard marker. Thats 210-220, thats the bogey golfer average.

To Dans club and how they conduct money games and tournaments. No offense if the tournament/money game director is a friend or not, but that dude needs to be canned. Hes running it basically to take short hitters or low capped short hitters out of the running by making them play a tee they have no business on. I've played that course and I can't imagine playing from 6600 there hitting it 200 off the tee. I understand that C.C. are uptight and stuffy and stuck in old dumb ways, but man, they need to wake up and get with the 21st century. I would get all my short hitting friends to boycott their events till something changed, because the B.S.
 
Mulligan9111 said:
I would think that if you wanted to try your hand at a tournament that you should PREPARE for that tournament, rather than just show up and expect to be able to compete without any sort of preparation.
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Ok, so let's make this real.

I'm in the #THPLegacy. I'm doing prep work every day. Are you suggesting that I should be inflating my handicap by only posting scores from the tips or I'm not really preparing? Because I guarantee you I'm not going to do that--it seems all kinds of shady to me.
 
Playdough said:
I've spent the better part of a day and half reading this entire thread, post for post. Its been wildly entertaining to me and I have learned some things through out. So I see a lot of chatter about moving back and moving forward..course familiarity things like that. My home course plays just over 6700 from the tips, rates at 70.1/126 IIRC. So thats the base yardage/rating/Slope for me. I have an example that pretty much fits in to this. At the 2013 Outing at Reunion I played the Tradition Course from the Tips, its over 75xx 76.7/147, at that time I was pretty much the same cap I am now (4.5). First time I had ever seen the place and shot an 85 and my diff was 6.4, so within 2 adjusted shots of my cap. I played it the next day from one set of tees up, i think they played at just under 7000, like 69 and some change, 72.6/142. I shot a 79 and my diff was 5.1, so basically I shot my cap. So based off my experince the GHIN system does pick up for the distance difference. My first round the scratch par was 77, I shot an 85. The second round scratch par was 73, I shot 79. 8 Worse and 6 Worse than the scratch par, so I as a rounded up 5 Capper would have been with 1-2 adjusted shots each round of the scratch golfer using what I have learned from Rule 3-5 (assuming I am applying it correctly). If I am way off base, please say so, because I will confess to not being an expert at this.

I get what Dan is getting at. Hes looking for a way for someone to be able to step back a set of tees and the players handicap to adjust to more fair number for that player. What he is saying is that the system doesn't account enough for a person playing back that doesnt hit the ball to the bogey golfer number. I get that. But I would say that the system does account for that, just not enough. It is a bit of an aged average. But I'm not sure that it isn't fairly close. I've played a lot of golf, with a lot of guys and watched a lot guys hit balls on the range (not as many of some here) but there are not a lot of guys hitting it 250. I would venture a guess that there are more hitting it 210 than hitting it 250. And there is a lot more people playing bogey golf and worse than playing single digit golf. At my home course I've watched a lot people tee off on the first hole and it only plays 330 from the middle tee and I see a lot guys hit driver and just get inside the 100 yard marker. Thats 210-220, thats the bogey golfer average.

To Dans club and how they conduct money games and tournaments. No offense if the tournament/money game director is a friend or not, but that dude needs to be canned. Hes running it basically to take short hitters or low capped short hitters out of the running by making them play a tee they have no business on. I've played that course and I can't imagine playing from 6600 there hitting it 200 off the tee. I understand that C.C. are uptight and stuffy and stuck in old dumb ways, but man, they need to wake up and get with the 21st century. I would get all my short hitting friends to boycott their events till something changed, because the B.S.
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They are improving, buddy. They are looking at ways to tee it forward in tournaments and it's a big step - Frankly I think a lot of Private Courses are living in another era of golf, but surely they'll come around.

What it's going to become host to now, is a mess of golfers beyond beyond their tee it forward tees, establishing a handicap, and then moving up and playing well beyond their handicap in tournaments. Will be fun to see how courses handle that.
 
Dave Alvarado said:
Ok, so let's make this real.

I'm in the #THPLegacy. I'm doing prep work every day. Are you suggesting that I should be inflating my handicap by only posting scores from the tips or I'm not really preparing? Because I guarantee you I'm not going to do that--it seems all kinds of shady to me.
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I think that's what Mulligan fails to see, Dave. This is about the flexibility of changing tees, not where people SHOULD be playing from, or preparing for tournaments -- And based on the response we've received, I doubt his focus changes.
 
Dave Alvarado said:
Ok, so let's make this real.

I'm in the #THPLegacy. I'm doing prep work every day. Are you suggesting that I should be inflating my handicap by only posting scores from the tips or I'm not really preparing? Because I guarantee you I'm not going to do that--it seems all kinds of shady to me.
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Are the tips the same yardage you are going to play for The Legacy? If they are, then I think you should practice from that yardage if you are going to try and be competitive with other players at that same yardage.
 
Mulligan9111 said:
Then that falls squarely on the "tournament" player for not preparing himself for these tournaments.
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I think the tournament committee and course have some culpability here as well. Why do the tournament tees have to be far back? Why not have a mix the tee boxes up. Have some close. Some far. And most in the middle?
 
Canadan said:
I think that's what Mulligan fails to see, Dave. This is about the flexibility of changing tees, not where people SHOULD be playing from, or preparing for tournaments -- And based on the response we've received, I doubt his focus changes.
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I just think if you are really trying to be competitive in an event, you should prepare yourself for that event. At that point where people SHOULD be playing from goes out the window because they are knowingly playing in an event that is played from where they should not be playing from. I'm sorry, I will never see the point in just throwing strokes to players who fail to properly prepare themselves.

But like I said earlier in this thread, maybe I'm just a huge jerk.
 
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