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USGA Course Rating Definitions - Need Refinement?

Canadan said:
You're considering what the USGA does in tournament play when people play various tee boxes using handicap. That's not the issue. The issue is the variable of change between establishing a handicap from the proper tee box, and moving back for a tournament or casual round while utilizing handicap. It's flawed for any golfer in that scenario.
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you're considering that every tournament should be played from the same set of tees. i'm saying maybe this whole thing is moot if we start letting people play the tees they think are appropriate for them, or the tees for which their handicaps are currently established. again, that doesn't mean i'm saying you're incorrect in saying the system is flawed, because my fix wouldn't be necessary if the system worked.
 
caeleric said:
there are usga provisions for tournaments to allow for competitions among golfers playing different sets of tees. i have no clue how you would police a distance-based factor. that seems to allow for a lot more cheating. again, i just don't have a problem with it, but i avoid competitive golf because it's not fun for me, so my opinion is pretty irrelevant in this conversation.
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If you tell me you HC is based off hitting the ball 210 but your pounding the ball 250 all day it's pretty easy to bust a cheater.

But those allowances currently available do not work and that's what is being discussed and how to fix it.
 
golfinFF said:
But if the boxes slope rating were based on distance from the tee(some already are but are based on gender ladies vs men's ratings for 5,600yds) then when you pushed back or forward to play then the adjustment on what you should shoot would be more realistic.
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I agree, but that's assuming the game is linear. Your shots don't add up in linear fashion to the addition of yardage, And to make that assumption you're potentially adding too much advantage for the shorter hitters on a tee box where a long hitter would tee off normally.

Long rough, bring the bunker into play, make accuracy a premium, I still think the course would be a better equalizer than any number system. Although I'm definitely not opposed to flighted tees, just the enforcement is a whole other issue.
 
caeleric said:
you're considering that every tournament should be played from the same set of tees. i'm saying maybe this whole thing is moot if we start letting people play the tees they think are appropriate for them, or the tees for which their handicaps are currently established. again, that doesn't mean i'm saying you're incorrect in saying the system is flawed, because my fix wouldn't be necessary if the system worked.
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Unfortunately my concern is not with how flawed and archaic golf courses are with regards to tournament play. That's another issue entirely. The point of THIS thread, is to discuss the handicap system as it relates to golfers moving forward and backward between tee boxes. Diluting it with "play where you're supposed to" or "don't play in tournaments," while both being viable solutions to current handicap issues, are not related to the error of the structured handicap system.
 
Canadan said:
Where in the handicap system does it say you're obligated to play a certain set of tee boxes? Implying that it's being misused by wanting to move a player backward and forward between tee boxes is inaccurate in my opinion, otherwise it would be directly stated as such.

Use your example in terms of a player playing against his own handicap, not someone else. Can he be competitive against the USGA defined handicap from 6,900 yards despite being a 210 yard driver of the ball, with an established handicap from 6,000 yards? The answer, is no, he cannot. And unless I missed something, I thought that was the intent of the system in place.
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The USGA has always recommended that players play tees at an appropriate length for their game. So to answer you, there is no reason to believe that the system was ever intended to compensate for a significant difference in course length. It's my opinion that you are making an invalid assumption. If that same player establishes his handicap from the longer tees, then plays the shorter ones, he would be expected to consistently perform better than his handicap for those tees. I guess you guys can discuss this for another 17 pages and you still won't have an answer. I don't see any hint that there is any plan to change the system.

One question: Is the situation any different in any other jurisdiction? Is the system used in the UK, or the one in Europe any better at extreme changes in course length? My understanding is that they don't travel as well as the USGA system does, but that information is a couple of years old.
 
golfinFF said:
If you tell me you HC is based off hitting the ball 210 but your pounding the ball 250 all day it's pretty easy to bust a cheater.

But those allowances currently available do not work and that's what is being discussed and how to fix it.
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I love this excuse. The handicap system as it is currently, is WIDE open to cheating. People can post whatever the hell they want, and it almost never gets considered.

Suddenly we add a distance variable, which is EXTREMELY visible and in tournament play can be manipulated by the course staff to guarantee accuracy, and people are up in arms claiming a cheaters paradise.

All I can do is laugh at that.
 
caeleric said:
you're considering that every tournament should be played from the same set of tees. i'm saying maybe this whole thing is moot if we start letting people play the tees they think are appropriate for them, or the tees for which their handicaps are currently established. again, that doesn't mean i'm saying you're incorrect in saying the system is flawed, because my fix wouldn't be necessary if the system worked.
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Your correct that if the tourneys allowed you to play the distance where you set your HC from or close to it this whole convo would never happen but they don't.

The other issue is you play a casual round with your buddies from a tee set back because they are playing back there. The current system give you 2 strokes but in reality your shooting 7 worse because of distance. The round is pitched and not counting toward your HC because it sees it as an outlier instead of being what you should shoot realistically based on how short of a hitter you are.
 
Fourputt said:
The USGA has always recommended that players play tees at an appropriate length for their game. So to answer you, there is no reason to believe that the system was ever intended to compensate for a significant difference in course length. It's my opinion that you are making an invalid assumption. If that same player establishes his handicap from the longer tees, then plays the shorter ones, he would be expected to consistently perform better than his handicap for those tees. I guess you guys can discuss this for another 17 pages and you still won't have an answer. I don't see any hint that there is any plan to change the system.

One question: Is the situation any different in any other jurisdiction? Is the system used in the UK, or the one in Europe any better at extreme changes in course length? My understanding is that they don't travel as well as the USGA system does, but that information is a couple of years old.
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Some thoughts:

1 - I have no idea what the UK does so I can't speak on it.
2 - Recommendations for tees played does not mean it's incorporated into the system. So the answer, is no.
3 - I'm not making an 'invalid' assumption, I'm making an informed opinion based on countless rounds encountered both locally and at THP events where handicaps don't 'travel'
4 - I hope this conversation goes on forever. I love talking golf!
 
Canadan said:
Unfortunately my concern is not with how flawed and archaic golf courses are with regards to tournament play. That's another issue entirely. The point of THIS thread, is to discuss the handicap system as it relates to golfers moving forward and backward between tee boxes. Diluting it with "play where you're supposed to" or "don't play in tournaments," while both being viable solutions to current handicap issues, are not related to the error of the structured handicap system.
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from usga.org: "The USGA Handicap System™ enables golfers of all skill levels to compete on an equitable basis." take tournament out of what i said and insert competition, it's the same damn thing. so no, talking about tournaments doesn't dilute anything in THIS thread.
 
Canadan said:
I love this excuse. The handicap system as it is currently, is WIDE open to cheating. People can post whatever the hell they want, and it almost never gets considered.

Suddenly we add a distance variable, which is EXTREMELY visible and in tournament play can be manipulated by the course staff to guarantee accuracy, and people are up in arms claiming a cheaters paradise.

All I can do is laugh at that.
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Yep it's kinda like me establishing my HC using my driver which has been proven at every THP gathering but one(fluke) to cost me 8-12 strokes a round via 3-4 penalties and a couple punch outs. But come competition I don't take driver once and blow my HC out of the water, if you never saw me play with driver you'd call me a sandbaggaaaa which I kinda am doing.

I've done this twice playing 441 in HHI and Tpluff in BG last yr. I beat Tyler in 7/9 holes with out him giving me a stroke and honestly neither time were truly fair but I played the HC system for what it is.
 
Just a side note, in your experience Dan, the handicap doesn't travel well because they don't score nearly where their handicap says? Or the shots given by the handicap is not enough to compete?

I would say would all things equal, whenever you play at a different course, it doesn't matter if the yardage is the same, it would be quite tough with the lack of experience on the course to perform, not to mention the yardage is different.

Moving to a longer tee, sure you won't be able to perform from the get go, but do it all the time, that's the new normal. I have no idea how a system is suppose to set up a equation that takes all the dynamics of golf into play when it's being performed by a person under pressure. Give me 10 shots, 20 shots. It doesn't matter if I can't overcome my nerves, that's not something a handicap system should be helping to fix.

In a perfect world when you've figured out the formula, there's still a guy who has to swing the club.

My point is, even if the system does account for "travel" between Tees. The player probably isn't. If end result is what matters, then no, it will never travel so long as the player continue to play courses without prior experience or comfort level.
 
One problem I see from your insistence that the golfers play the same tees is at some courses there are forced carries longer than I can hit the ball, a provision would have to be made for this or golfers would be hitting dozens of ball in a ravine/water you name it.
 
caeleric said:
from usga.org: "The USGA Handicap System™ enables golfers of all skill levels to compete on an equitable basis." take tournament out of what i said and insert competition, it's the same damn thing. so no, talking about tournaments doesn't dilute anything in THIS thread.
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Ugh. Again, missing the point. You're trying to pit people against each other, and I'm asking point blank why the conversation needs to go there. But if we must make this about competing against each other, answer this:

I establish my handicap from 6,700 yards as a guy who drives the ball 265ish yards on average.
My opponent has established his handicap from 6,000 yards and drives the ball 210 yards on average.

When he moves back to my tee box, realistically, the handicap system will give him somewhere between one or two additional strokes.... Who wins the match in this scenario? The answer is me. By a large margin. My opponent gets destroyed by ultra long distance into greens, and in many cases can't get there in regulation.

Sample 2

I establish my handicap from 6,700 yards as a guy who drives the ball 265ish yards on average.
My opponent has established his handicap from the same 6,700 yards and drives the ball 210 yards on average.

He decides on this day that he'd like to 'tee it forward' and play at 6,000 yards, now being completely capable of hitting the green in two, and in many cases has a mid iron to short iron into greens. Who wins the match? The answer is likely him. By a solid margin. His handicap has been inflated by playing the wrong set of tees, and the reduction in one or two strokes moving forward nowhere near covers the improvement he'll make based purely on his ball striking distance.

You can tell me my examples are flawed, reaching, or invalid, but they are both not only true, but consistent.
 
caeleric said:
from usga.org: "The USGA Handicap System enables golfers of all skill levels to compete on an equitable basis." take tournament out of what i said and insert competition, it's the same damn thing. so no, talking about tournaments doesn't dilute anything in THIS thread.
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This is complete BS once you move beyond a distance one can play the course as designed at.

A 220yd par3 is not a par 3 for someone who can only hit the ball 210. A 580yd par5 is not reachable in regulation for a player who hits the ball off the tee 210 at best it's 4 to the green and a two putt which is bogey. So on two holes this player has used up all or at most half the strokes they are given by the current system by moving back 800yds.
 
golfinFF said:
Yep it's kinda like me establishing my HC using my driver which has been proven at every THP gathering but one(fluke) to cost me 8-12 strokes a round via 3-4 penalties and a couple punch outs. But come competition I don't take driver once and blow my HC out of the water, if you never saw me play with driver you'd call me a sandbaggaaaa which I kinda am doing.

I've done this twice playing 441 in HHI and Tpluff in BG last yr. I beat Tyler in 7/9 holes with out him giving me a stroke and honestly neither time were truly fair but I played the HC system for what it is.
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The system can't possibly work if you deliberately inflate your handicap by playing in a way that you know is essentially cheating. In the men's club I used to play in, you would be frozen to tournament handicaps only and all of those rounds when you inflated your handicap by using driver would never be used. You didn't "play the HC system for what it is." You manipulated it unfairly to your advantage. You abused it in a way in which it was never intended to be used. The USGA system is an honor system, and it's expected that the players using it have some personal integrity.
 
Plin said:
The more I read about this, the more it seems like we're trying to find equality in a game that was not setup to be equals. Whether in a tournament setting or otherwise. I don't know if anyone watches the GT Races, Where they have 3 separate classes race all on the same field to create some sort of drama. It brings a similar feeling to me, that no matter how much you try to push everyone under the same conditions, add handicaps or adjust for variance. The finishes are those who you expect to win. The prototypes, in our discussion, the long hitters. I get the idea the system somehow should help people to compete in a fair game, which it does, like I have said before, a pretty good job. But when you set up a tournament to favor long hitters, there is inherently a fault that the system can't overcome.
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That is a good comparison..but those racers are professionals, and are technically only competing against other cars in their own class even though all classes are on the track together..whereas there is an event in pro golf where 3 man teams are made up of a PGA player, and LPGA player, and a Champions tour player... and each plays from a different set of tees within the same event...

Staying on racing...let me throw this one at you... the VAST majority of amateur drag racing is not done heads up. Is is done in a bracket racing format. Grocery getters compete with built street cars and full on racecars..all for one prize. The starts are staggered to even things up, and the winner ends up being the driver who can make every pass as close to perfect as possible, cutting the perfect reaction time to the light and making perfect shifts...and if he has been sandbagging and ends up going to fast compared to his handicap he gets disqualified. Professional drag racing, and high end amateur drag racing use a heads up start because all the cars racing against each other are apples to apples...or are playing the same game.

Comparing this to golf... the Pro racers are like the pro golfers. The best of the best, apples to apples, and even with their differences in power they have made up for it in other areas of their game and are matched evenly enough that the guy who plays 4 rounds at the height of his potential and makes the fewest mistakes will usually be the winner. The amateur/hobby racers are like most of us on THP... a wide gap in ability and power. The handicap system does a good job letting us compete against each other from an ability variance perspective, but not as good a job accounting for a power variance. So until the golf establishment gets on board with allowing people to compete from different tees, they need to work on the staggered start a bit,
 
Fourputt said:
The system can't possibly work if you deliberately inflate your handicap by playing in a way that you know is essentially cheating. In the men's club I used to play in, you would be frozen to tournament handicaps only and all of those rounds when you inflated your handicap by using driver would never be used. You didn't "play the HC system for what it is." You manipulated it unfairly to your advantage. You abused it in a way in which it was never intended to be used. The USGA system is an honor system, and it's expected that the players using it have some personal integrity.
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Let me ask you a question (even though it's not on topic).. I review golf equipment for THP regularly and put it into play. Am I "cheating" by posting my scores with the equipment I review in play if I plan to go back to my normal gamers after the review period is over?

let me add in more:

- If I hit two drives on the first two holes of the day, realize my driver is out of whack, and leave it in the bag for the rest of the round, am I cheating my handicap?
- If I move up two sets of tees and don't bother hitting my driver because I'd prefer to play to a number, and I cheating my handicap?
 
That's a very eloquent explanation and I'm glad you darnall brought up the difference in classes. It was the very thinking that I feel flighted tees is to be implemented. The difference is how you class people based on their hitting distance. Do you give them a range like 250-280 or just a number + or - 10 yards?
 
Fourputt said:
The system can't possibly work if you deliberately inflate your handicap by playing in a way that you know is essentially cheating. In the men's club I used to play in, you would be frozen to tournament handicaps only and all of those rounds when you inflated your handicap by using driver would never be used. You didn't "play the HC system for what it is." You manipulated it unfairly to your advantage. You abused it in a way in which it was never intended to be used. The USGA system is an honor system, and it's expected that the players using it have some personal integrity.
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Is it inflating cause I'm playing every club in my bag as it's designed? But because it's wonky that day I leave it in the bag, but my length with a 2hybo still allows me to go at every Green in regulation?

What if I set my HC from 7200 yds knowing it's too long for me but my competition is played from 6600? The system says I'm losing 2 strokes so I go from a 10 to an 8 for the competition but in reality I'll play closer to a 3?

So it's wrong to "sandbag" but it's not wrong to deflate ones HC because the difference is winning vs not competing?
 
Plin said:
That's a very eloquent explanation and I'm glad you darnall brought up the difference in classes. It was the very thinking that I feel flighted tees is to be implemented. The difference is how you class people based on their hitting distance. Do you give them a range like 250-280 or just a number + or - 10 yards?
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I don't care how you do the distance range or a number +/- 10. Or set it up less than than 220, 225-250, 255-280, 280+ all will work better than what's currently in place IMO.
 
What's the difference from player A - that hits the ball 200 & player B that hits it 200?
 
Canadan said:
Let me ask you a question (even though it's not on topic).. I review golf equipment for THP regularly and put it into play. Am I "cheating" by posting my scores with the equipment I review in play if I plan to go back to my normal gamers after the review period is over?

let me add in more:

- If I hit two drives on the first two holes of the day, realize my driver is out of whack, and leave it in the bag for the rest of the round, am I cheating my handicap?
- If I move up two sets of tees and don't bother hitting my driver because I'd prefer to play to a number, and I cheating my handicap?
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If you do it regularly for the purpose of manipulating your handicap like the guy I was replying to, then yes. If it's just an incidental thing, then the system is designed to accommodate for it because the formula uses 10 differentials in the calculation. If every round was certain to affect your handicap, then my answer might be different, but any system that flawed would be unusable.

Everyone has days when a certain club or a certain part of their game isn't working, so they do what they can to compensate for it. It's only when you abuse the handicap system for the purpose of gaining an advantage for gain that it becomes cheating. If you abuse the system to give yourself a vanity cap, then have at it.
 
Canadan said:
Some thoughts:

1 - I have no idea what the UK does so I can't speak on it.
2 - Recommendations for tees played does not mean it's incorporated into the system. So the answer, is no.
3 - I'm not making an 'invalid' assumption, I'm making an informed opinion based on countless rounds encountered both locally and at THP events where handicaps don't 'travel'
4 - I hope this conversation goes on forever. I love talking golf!
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Handicaps don't travel for a lot of reasons, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with distance. I can tell you right now that if I'm not familiar with a course, there is absolutely no way I'm going to shoot near my handicap, and it solely comes down to not knowing the course (where to miss, where I can push it, where I need to lay back, reading the greens, etc.). However, if I get 2-3 rounds on that course, I'll most likely be right back to around my handicap. I do envy those golfers that can go out and play a course blind and shoot their handicap, but unfortunately that's not how my game is. If I don't trust that I know where to try and place the ball on a course, I will struggle throughout the round.

I do understand what you are saying Dan with regards to distance, I just simply disagree that distance needs to be incorporated with handicaps. And the biggest reason I disagree is that this would only help shorter hitters, it does nothing to help any other golfer outside of shorter hitters. Shorter hitters and longer hitters all have their own difficulties to deal with in golf. The longer hitter has a greater chance of going further offline because of their swing speed, thus a lot of times people associate longer hitters as being inaccurate. Yes, course difficulty with regards to tight/wide open is factored in with regards to course rating and slope, but distance is also factored into those same course and slope ratings. So I just don't see why shorter hitters should get a bump, yet inaccurate hitters are stuck with no help.

I mean if you are wanting everything to be absolutely equal for competition for golfers, then it's my opinion it will make golf incredibly boring because everybody's strengths and weaknesses with their game will be compensated for by a handicap adjustment. There is just no possible way you can please every golfer with regards to a handicap system.
 
Mulligan9111 said:
Handicaps don't travel for a lot of reasons, many of which have absolutely nothing to do with distance. I can tell you right now that if I'm not familiar with a course, there is absolutely no way I'm going to shoot near my handicap, and it solely comes down to not knowing the course (where to miss, where I can push it, where I need to lay back, reading the greens, etc.). However, if I get 2-3 rounds on that course, I'll most likely be right back to around my handicap. I do envy those golfers that can go out and play a course blind and shoot their handicap, but unfortunately that's not how my game is. If I don't trust that I know where to try and place the ball on a course, I will struggle throughout the round.

I do understand what you are saying Dan with regards to distance, I just simply disagree that distance needs to be incorporated with handicaps. And the biggest reason I disagree is that this would only help shorter hitters, it does nothing to help any other golfer outside of shorter hitters. Shorter hitters and longer hitters all have their own difficulties to deal with in golf. The longer hitter has a greater chance of going further offline because of their swing speed, thus a lot of times people associate longer hitters as being inaccurate. Yes, course difficulty with regards to tight/wide open is factored in with regards to course rating and slope, but distance is also factored into those same course and slope ratings. So I just don't see why shorter hitters should get a bump, yet inaccurate hitters are stuck with no help.

I mean if you are wanting everything to be absolutely equal for competition for golfers, then it's my opinion it will make golf incredibly boring because everybody's strengths and weaknesses with their game will be compensated for by a handicap adjustment. There is just no possible way you can please every golfer with regards to a handicap system.
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"short hitter" is only a reflection on the tee box that you play. If I move back to 7,500 yards I'm still a long driver of the golf ball, but you better believe I'll be struggling at that distance and will need far more than my slope rating GHIN app is telling me I should get.

This is about a handicap balance for every individual, not giving 200 yard drivers of the golf ball an unfair advantage.
 
Plin said:
It was the very thinking that I feel flighted tees is to be implemented. The difference is how you class people based on their hitting distance. Do you give them a range like 250-280 or just a number + or - 10 yards?
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I also think a wider acceptance of being allowed to play from the tees you should play from, in any friendly match, tournament, scramble, league etc fixes this. I wish it was the norm for a guy to ask his opponent "which tees did you play from to establish your cap? O.K. then, I normally play these so lets each play where we normally play from".

Sadly, I think the majority of golfers who are in tune with the assets and liabilities of the state of our game would agree. The excuse of "well we've always done it this way" is a horrible reason to do anything without evidence that it actually is the best way.

My son and I partnered in a few 2 man scrambles when he was 12-13 years old. Unless you were over 50, over 60, over 70 or a female you played them from the tips...period. Needless to say, a 13 year old got pretty frustrated with playing from so far back

The only real hiccup I can see resulting from more people playing split tees together is this... If I have the honor on the next hole but am playing from a box 30 yards up, do we backtrack after I tee off or do we just always have the guy from the back play first? Kind of changes the way a matchplay game is played if the same guy hits first 18 times, but could slow down pace of play a bit if we were backtracking to teeboxes on half the holes we played.
 
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